How Germany could have won the second world war

[K9Buck]

BS... if you were not a jew you were pretty much saved in Germany

I don't follow. What did I say that is "BS"?

 

[Litwin]

BS... if you were not a jew you were pretty much saved in Germany

I don't follow. What did I say that is "BS"?

1) Nazis learned a lot about racism from the Democratic Party,
2) racism from the Democratic Party,

 

[AzogtheDefiler]

There is a show on Netflix wherein the U.S. lost the second world war and came under the control of the Nazis, or so I have been told. I believe it's called "The man in the high castle". I've never watched. The idea that Germany was going to "take over the world" was laughable. Without the benefit of hindsight, the Germans probably did about as well as they could have done. They won a staggering victory against the French and British. And then their armies waltzed through Russia, at least until late 1941. They had a HELL of a run, but it wasn't going to last forever, and it didn't.

It’s on Amazon Prime

 

[K9Buck]

BS... if you were not a jew you were pretty much saved in Germany

I don't follow. What did I say that is "BS"?

1) Nazis learned a lot about racism from the Democratic Party,
2) racism from the Democratic Party,

Thanks.

 

[Litwin]

BS... if you were not a jew you were pretty much saved in Germany

I don't follow. What did I say that is "BS"?

1) Nazis learned a lot about racism from the Democratic Party,
2) racism from the Democratic Party,

Thanks.

Hitler has not had a clue about real situation in the USA

 

[harmonica]

if if if if if if if if if to infinity
no--he could not have won the war

We'll never know for sure. That's why it's fun to speculate.

In my OP, I posit that Hitler needed to avoid war with the U.S. and make peace with the U.K. and France. Hitler may have been able to secure his desired "living space" in the Ukraine for an indefinite amount of time.

still no go:
....hitler stabbed Russia in the back just like Japan did the US--Russia is NOT going to stop fighting
..Russia is not going to negotiate with hitler after hitler fked them once already
... and Germany CANNOT defeat Russia--Russia is too big
and:
Germany population 70,000,000
Russia -------------------- 170,000,000
!!
22 June 1941 - game over for Germany..Germany loses
don't forget there are still resistance groups in France, Norway, Balkans, Italy,etc

 

[K9Buck]

BS... if you were not a jew you were pretty much saved in Germany

I don't follow. What did I say that is "BS"?

1) Nazis learned a lot about racism from the Democratic Party,
2) racism from the Democratic Party,

Thanks.

Hitler has not had a clue about real situation in the USA

Check this out.

What America Taught the Nazis in the 1930s - The Atlantic

 

[danielpalos]

Diversity; E Pluribus Unum. Our US Constitution ensures we can Always muster an Army Group in Reserve.

Thanks, but what does this have to do with the topic of the thread?

Hitler merely needed an Army Group in reserve; diversity would have made that happen.

 

[Litwin]

BS... if you were not a jew you were pretty much saved in Germany

I don't follow. What did I say that is "BS"?

1) Nazis learned a lot about racism from the Democratic Party,
2) racism from the Democratic Party,

Thanks.

Hitler has not had a clue about real situation in the USA

Check this out.

What America Taught the Nazis in the 1930s - The Atlantic

man, USA is fixed on racism , Hitler saw blond Belarusians (who are blonder , and have more Nordic look than Germans ) and Ukrainians as sub - humans (in some cases) in the same time he saw Tibetans as the Aryans . so American racism was not a case in Nazi Germany

 

[Litwin]

if if if if if if if if if to infinity
no--he could not have won the war

We'll never know for sure. That's why it's fun to speculate.

In my OP, I posit that Hitler needed to avoid war with the U.S. and make peace with the U.K. and France. Hitler may have been able to secure his desired "living space" in the Ukraine for an indefinite amount of time.

still no go:
....hitler stabbed Russia in the back just like Japan did the US--Russia is NOT going to stop fighting
..Russia is not going to negotiate with hitler after hitler fked them once already
... and Germany CANNOT defeat Russia--Russia is too big
and:
Germany population 70,000,000
Russia -------------------- 170,000,000
!!
22 June 1941 - game over for Germany..Germany loses
don't forget there are still resistance groups in France, Norway, Balkans, Italy,etc

can you give me the numbers under koba´s control in 1941? and you know nothing about commie panic and great expectations from many Moscvoites in Moscow when Germans approached Moscow

+

"The Lokot Autonomy was a semi-autonomous region in Nazi German-occupied Central Russia led by Bronislav Kaminski's administration from July 1942 to August 1943. The name is derived from the region's administrative center, the urban-type settlement of Lokot in Oryol Oblast (now located in Bryansk Oblast). The "Autonomy" covered the area of eight raions (the present-day Brasovsky, Dmitriyevsky, Dmitrovsky, Komarichsky, Navlinsky, Sevsky, Suzemsky and Zheleznogorsky districts) now divided between Bryansk, Oryol and Kursk Oblasts.[2] The autonomy was to serve as a test case for a Russian collaborationist government under the SS in Reichskommissariat Moskowien.[3]

In October 1941, the Nazi German military advance into Soviet Union from Operation Barbarossa reached the Lokot area near the city of Bryansk, and it was captured by the Germans on October 6, 1941.[4] In November 1941 Bronislav Kaminski (an engineer at a local distillery) and Konstantin Voskoboinik (a local technical school teacher) were approached the German military administration with proposals to assist them in establishing a civil administration and local police. Voskoboinik was designated by Germans as starosta of the "Lokot volost". Kaminski became Voskoboinik's deputy. Other deputies appointed were Stepan Mosin and Roman Ivanin (the head of the local militia), both former prisoners.[5]

Initially the militia headed by Voskoboinik numbered no more than 200 men. It assisted Germans in policing the area, and committed numerous atrocities against the civilian population loyal to the Soviet authorities or Soviet partisans, Soviet prisoners-of war (POWs), Jews and ordinary civilians.[6][7] By January 1942 the militia's personnel was increased to 400-500.

During a partisan attack headed by Alexander Saburov on January 8, 1942, Voskoboinik was mortally wounded. After his death, Kaminski took over the command and further expanded the militia.[1][7]

In cooperation with German forces, the militia commenced security operations, and by spring of 1942 the militia had 1,400 armed personnel. The number of Soviet partisans in this area was estimated at 20,000 men – they controlled almost the entire rear of the Army Group Center's area of operations.[8]

In March 1942 Kaminski's representative to the German Second Panzer Army in Oryol gave assurances that Kaminski's unit was "ready to actively fight the guerrillas" and to carry on a propaganda campaign against "Jewish Bolshevism" and Soviet partisans. Soon thereafter the commander of 2nd Army Generaloberst Rudolf Schmidt appointed Kaminski as the mayor of the Army Rear Area 532 centered in the township of Lokot. On 19 July 1942, after the Commander of Army Group Centre, Field Marshal Günther von Kluge gave an official approval, the Lokot administration received some degree of autonomy and nominal self-rule under the supervision of major von Veltheim and colonel Rübsam. Kaminsky was appointed the oberburgomeister of the Autonomous Administration of Lokot (comprising eight raions) and the brigadier of the local militia.

From June 1942, Kaminski's militia took part in a major security operation code-named Operation Vogelsang, as part of General Werner von Gilsa's Kampfgruppe (battle group) Gilsa II.

Germans did not interfere in the affairs of the Lokot Autonomy as long as their transports were kept safe and the republic delivered the required food quotas to the Wehrmacht. Collective farms were abolished, and a large degree of free enterprise was permitted. Kaminski established the Autonomy's own court, jails and newspapers. Kaminski's speeches published in the newspapers of the region emphasised that the aims of Nazi Germany and Russia "are the same".

The schools (closed after the German invasion) were reopened, and a radio station along with theater groups were established in Lokot, Dmitrovsk and Sevsk [9] Newspapers published in the Lokot Autonomy were typical of all newspapers published on Nazi-occupied Russian territories, featuring articles exposing "Jewish Bolshevism" crimes along with Nazi propaganda which included the usual heavy dose of anti-Semitism. The Jewish population in the Autonomy was annihilated without German assistance: 223 Jews were shot in the township of Suzemka, and 39 at Navlya.[10]

In October 1942 Kaminski renamed Lokot township as the town of Voskoboinik. Streets in other townships of the Autonomy were also renamed.

In the autumn of 1942 Kaminski ordered the compulsory draft into militia of all able-bodied men. Its units were reinforced with the "volunteers" drafted from Soviet POWs at the nearest Nazi concentration camps. Kaminski ordered the gathering of Soviet tanks and armored cars abandoned in 1941 due the lack of fuel or minor mechanical failures – by November 1942 his unit has in possession at least two BT-7 tanks and one 76 mm artillery system. Due the lack of uniforms and boots (some units were barefoot) the Germans provided Kaminski's brigade with used uniforms: these were sufficient for only four battalions.

By late 1942, the militia of the Lokot Autonomy had expanded to the size of a 14-battalion brigade with close to 8,000 men under arms called the Russian National Liberation Army (RONA). From November 19, 1942 to December 1942, Lokot was inspected by the order of the Alfred Rosenberg.

In January 1943, the brigade numbered 9828 people; the armored unit of brigade has one heavy KV-II, two medium T-34, three BT-7 and two BT-5 light tanks, and three armored cars (BA-10, 2 BA-20).

In the spring of 1943 the brigade's structure was reorganized – there were five regiments created with three battalions in each, anti-aircraft battalion (three AAA guns and four heavy machine guns), armored unit. A separate "guard" battalion was created; brigade strength was estimated to be 12,000 men in total.

Prior to Operation Citadel, the massive offensive to destroy the Kursk salient, in May–June 1943 the brigade took part in Operation Zigeunerbaron ("Gypsy Baron") together with other German units.

This operation was followed by similar operations - Freischütz and Tannenhauser, the brigade together with others units under German command was involved in action against partisans and also took part in reprisal operations against the civilian population.

In the summer of 1943, the brigade began to suffer major desertions, due in part to the recent Soviet victories and in part to the efforts of the partisans to "turn" as many of Kaminski's troops as possible. As a part of these efforts, several attempts on Kaminski's life were carried out. Each time, Kaminski narrowly avoided death and punished the conspirators with execution. Several German officers passing through Lokot reported seeing bodies hanging from gallows outside Kaminski's headquarters. Fearing a breakdown in command, a German liaison staff was attached to Kaminski's HQ to restructure the brigade and return stability to the unit.

After the German failure of Citadel, the Soviet counteroffensives forced the brigade, along with their families, to flee with the retreating Germans. On the 29th of July, 1943 Kaminski issued an order for evacuation of property and families of RONA brigade and Lokot authorities. Up to 30 thousand persons (10-11,000 of them were brigade members) were transferred by Germans to the Lepel area of Vitebsk in Belarus by end of August 1943.

According to unreliable post-war Soviet estimates up to 10,000 civilians were killed during the existence of the Kaminski "Autonomy".

 

[Litwin]

this man just could not win , LOL such idiot

"the Georgians are not a Turkish people, rather a typical Caucasian tribe, probably even with some Nordic blood in them...The only ones I consider to be reliable are the pure Muslims, which means the real Turkish nations."[5" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgische_Legion_(1941%E2%80%9345)

 

[WheelieAddict]

Do you like historical "what ifs?" Here's mine.

Hitler took his eye off the ultimate prize, conquering the Soviet Union. Hitler needlessly and detrimentally went to war with Britain.

Upon taking France, Hitler should have disarmed the French (as they did), dismantled the Maginot Line and then announced that it was unilaterally withdrawing from France and state that they never wanted war with the allies and that their territorial claims in Poland were just. The French would have retained their navy (as they did anyway) and their colonies. I'm confident that the French would have readily accepted such generous terms from the Germans.

Hitler would have refrained from invading Denmark, Norway and north Africa while also refraining from any attacks against the U.K. Politically speaking, Churchill would have had virtually nill support for engaging in war against the Germans considering that the French were out of the war and at peace with Germany and considering that the Germans were not taking any aggressive actions against the U.K.

Hitler also would have needed to NOT declare war on the U.S., as he was apparently bound by agreement with Japan to do.

Had Hitler done these things, Germany would not have been at war with the western allies. He would not have expended and wasted massive resources engaging in needless wars in the "Battle of Britain" or in north Africa nor in occupying and fortifying France.

There would have been no British and American bombers bombing Germany's infrastructure. It's quite possible that American aid to the Soviets would never have happened or that the support would have been significantly less.

Hitler could have had the one-front war that he always wanted and have gone to war with the Soviets without having one arm tied behind his back, so to speak.

I will also add that Hitler's desire to actually take Stalingrad was completely unnecessary and counterproductive. He didn't need to take that city. They could have taken the oil fields in the Caucasus oil fields.

One glaring omission was Hitler's genocide of the Jews. Obviously, this would have been problematic for Germany in the long-term as the western allies, sooner or later, were going to learn of what was happening and would have responded with war. Hitler could have delayed his war against Jewish people in order to focus on winning the war. Thereafter, he could have advocated for the state of Israel and then worked on a program to humanely send European Jews to the newly created state.

Hitler would have needed to take Leningrad and then fortify western Russia and the Ukraine in order to be able to retain his conquests. The Germans were never going to be able to take and keep Moscow or Stalingrad. The Germans simply could not won the battle of attrition with the Soviets over the long-term.

Here is what "winning" the war would have looked like for Germany.

1) Defeating the allied armies in France, disarming the French and then making peace with the allies and, of course, avoiding war with the U.S.

2) Seizing Leningrad, the Ukraine and the Caucasus oil fields and being able to hold those territories.

3) Avoiding genocide of the Jews by, instead, exporting Germany's Jews to Palestine or a newly created "Israel".

Still, the Soviets would not have taken this lying down and the idea that the Germans could have, in the long-term, been able to retain control of their territorial conquests in the east seems unlikely.

Thoughts?

You are basically saying well if they weren't fascists maybe they could have done things different. They were fascists, and would have likely acted close to the same in different scenarios because of their ideology.

 

[JoeB131]

"FDR loved Uncle Joe" you know why? koba had mentality of Georgian thieves in law, very attractive for "friendship" . + USA wanted British empire down. but you have a point here FDR administration was badly infected with commies

Yes, they thought people should get fair wages and decent working conditions, what a bunch of commies.

 

[Litwin]

"FDR loved Uncle Joe" you know why? koba had mentality of Georgian thieves in law, very attractive for "friendship" . + USA wanted British empire down. but you have a point here FDR administration was badly infected with commies

Yes, they thought people should get fair wages and decent working conditions, what a bunch of commies.

so you think communism is all about "fair wages and decent working conditions"`, WHATS DO YOU KNOW ABOUT WORKING workers (commie slaves) in USSR in 1939-47? i see, you are one of those useful idiots

 

[JoeB131]

so you think communism is all about "fair wages and decent working conditions"`, WHATS DO YOU KNOW ABOUT WORKING workers (commie slaves) in USSR in 1939-47? i see, you are one of those useful idiots

i thought we were talking about FDR and his guys. You know, the guys who GAVE US A MIDDLE CLASS!

Of course, Republicans have been trying to do backsies since Nixon, and dumb useful idiots on the right go along with it because they live in mortal fear their daughters might date a Mexican.

 

[Litwin]

so you think communism is all about "fair wages and decent working conditions"`, WHATS DO YOU KNOW ABOUT WORKING workers (commie slaves) in USSR in 1939-47? i see, you are one of those useful idiots

i thought we were talking about FDR and his guys. You know, the guys who GAVE US A MIDDLE CLASS!

Of course, Republicans have been trying to do backsies since Nixon, and dumb useful idiots on the right go along with it because they live in mortal fear their daughters might date a Mexican.

"FDR and his guys" i want to talk about " his guys", many of them (i think including his wife) were koba´s spies many other were koba´s useful idiots , are you aware of it? and i think FDR was very strategical in this treatment of koba´s dictatorship and British empire

 

[danielpalos]

I don't follow. What did I say that is "BS"?

1) Nazis learned a lot about racism from the Democratic Party,
2) racism from the Democratic Party,

Thanks.

Hitler has not had a clue about real situation in the USA

Check this out.

What America Taught the Nazis in the 1930s - The Atlantic

man, USA is fixed on racism , Hitler saw blond Belarusians (who are blonder , and have more Nordic look than Germans ) and Ukrainians as sub - humans (in some cases) in the same time he saw Tibetans as the Aryans . so American racism was not a case in Nazi Germany

the "Jews" should have been alleged Necessary and Chosen for an Army Group in reserve.

 

[JoeB131]

"FDR and his guys" i want to talk about " his guys", many of them (i think including his wife) were koba´s spies many other were koba´s useful idiots , are you aware of it? and i think FDR was very strategical in this treatment of koba´s dictatorship and British empire

You know what, buddy, in the immortal words of Jack Nicholson...

 

[Chiara]

Some say Adolf Hitler's worst mistake was declaring war on USSR but I'm not so sure. I've read that some historicians say Stalin wanted to attack Germany and Hitler started to war to prevent Stalin's first strike
Anyways he was too narcissist (and maybe this is not a good thing if you are a commander in chief)

 

[K9Buck]

Some say Adolf Hitler's worst mistake was declaring war on USSR but I'm not so sure. I've read that some historicians say Stalin wanted to attack Germany and Hitler started to war to prevent Stalin's first strike
Anyways he was too narcissist (and maybe this is not a good thing if you are a commander in chief)

Europe wasn't big enough for TWO megalomaniacs.