How Does Teacher Tenure and Seniority Help Students?

[SmarterThanTheAverageBear]

Date 2003

You think it's gotten better since then?

ROFLMAO.

Exit exams may be on their way out

Look at how fast testing changes. These are just exit exams. You want to know why there is no money in education? Pay attention to how much is spent on testing and what it actually accomplishes.

How do you measure success without testing? Interesting theory there............ but lacking in practicality

 

[JoeB131]

[Q

I'm not arguing about the efficacy of testing. I'm arguing that there is an incentive to keep good teachers because there is a financial incentive - cold, hard cash - to do so. Yours is a nebulous argument of "office politics." Administrators want more money. The incentives are to keep good teachers, not get rid of them for nebulous reasons.

Your argument works if 1) Test results really measured teacher efficiency or 2) that a test could really identify the good teachers.

 

[Rikurzhen]

I certainly appreciate the work teachers do, and I have no problems with giving teachers protections against rash terminations, but I'm not sure how teacher tenure and seniority rules help kids.

They don't help the kids; they help the teachers' unions.

It's not a coincidence that as the unions have gained power and money, that the quality of education has declined.

No, the quality of teaching has not declined.

You are delusional.

Teacher quality most certainly has declined. Women's lib dealt a death blow to teacher quality.

That of course has a lot to do with the district you're in.
We pay the highest school taxes in the state and the schools are excellent as far as public schools go. And you have students who are raised properly so that goes a long way in making a school successful.

All you need to know to make a highly accurate prediction about school quality is this - how good are the students. Student quality is the principal driving factor behind student outcomes. Not spending, not teacher tenure, not teacher training, not computerization. It's all about what the kid does with the material.

Incorrect. What you REALLY need to know is, how good are the parents.

No, it's not the parent who is being assessed, it's the student. A parent could adopt a child and this breaks the genetic linkage between parent and child, leaving only family influence which has miniscule effect.

If the students is intelligent, open to learning, behaves himself, etc then you could teach that student in a log cabin and he'll do well.

 

[Disir]

Date 2003

You think it's gotten better since then?

ROFLMAO.

Exit exams may be on their way out

Look at how fast testing changes. These are just exit exams. You want to know why there is no money in education? Pay attention to how much is spent on testing and what it actually accomplishes.

How do you measure success without testing? Interesting theory there............ but lacking in practicality

What theory do you think I have? I didn't say anything about no testing.

 

[SmarterThanTheAverageBear]

our school gives our teachers the same test as we give their students as the end of every school year. If they don't make an A, they aren't invited back for the next school year. If they don't agree to those terms, they aren't hired to begin with.

 

[Disir]

And?

 

[SmarterThanTheAverageBear]

I certainly appreciate the work teachers do, and I have no problems with giving teachers protections against rash terminations, but I'm not sure how teacher tenure and seniority rules help kids.

They don't help the kids; they help the teachers' unions.

It's not a coincidence that as the unions have gained power and money, that the quality of education has declined.

No, the quality of teaching has not declined.

You are delusional.

Teacher quality most certainly has declined. Women's lib dealt a death blow to teacher quality.

That of course has a lot to do with the district you're in.
We pay the highest school taxes in the state and the schools are excellent as far as public schools go. And you have students who are raised properly so that goes a long way in making a school successful.

All you need to know to make a highly accurate prediction about school quality is this - how good are the students. Student quality is the principal driving factor behind student outcomes. Not spending, not teacher tenure, not teacher training, not computerization. It's all about what the kid does with the material.

Incorrect. What you REALLY need to know is, how good are the parents.

No, it's not the parent who is being assessed, it's the student. A parent could adopt a child and this breaks the genetic linkage between parent and child, leaving only family influence which has miniscule effect.

If the students is intelligent, open to learning, behaves himself, etc then you could teach that student in a log cabin and he'll do well.

In my experience parental influence makes ALL the difference. 75% of children simply are not equipped to motivate themselves to excel in their school work.

 

[QuickHitCurepon]

Basically, conservatives want to get rid of the teacher's unions because they want to get rid of public education.

It's as simple as that.

Beginning and end.

I believe conservatives just want competition for public schools in vouchers, forcing everybody to be competent.

 

[Jackson]

[Q

I'm not arguing about the efficacy of testing. I'm arguing that there is an incentive to keep good teachers because there is a financial incentive - cold, hard cash - to do so. Yours is a nebulous argument of "office politics." Administrators want more money. The incentives are to keep good teachers, not get rid of them for nebulous reasons.

Your argument works if 1) Test results really measured teacher efficiency or 2) that a test could really identify the good teachers.

I submit that if a teacher could not pass the test, they just identified an inadequate teacher.

 

[Rikurzhen]

Basically, conservatives want to get rid of the teacher's unions because they want to get rid of public education.

It's as simple as that.

Beginning and end.

I believe conservatives just want competition for public schools in vouchers, forcing everybody to be competent.

Absolutely. Remember, diversity is good and vouchers represent diversity.

 

[Rikurzhen]

I certainly appreciate the work teachers do, and I have no problems with giving teachers protections against rash terminations, but I'm not sure how teacher tenure and seniority rules help kids.

They don't help the kids; they help the teachers' unions.

It's not a coincidence that as the unions have gained power and money, that the quality of education has declined.

No, the quality of teaching has not declined.

You are delusional.

Teacher quality most certainly has declined. Women's lib dealt a death blow to teacher quality.

That of course has a lot to do with the district you're in.
We pay the highest school taxes in the state and the schools are excellent as far as public schools go. And you have students who are raised properly so that goes a long way in making a school successful.

All you need to know to make a highly accurate prediction about school quality is this - how good are the students. Student quality is the principal driving factor behind student outcomes. Not spending, not teacher tenure, not teacher training, not computerization. It's all about what the kid does with the material.

Incorrect. What you REALLY need to know is, how good are the parents.

No, it's not the parent who is being assessed, it's the student. A parent could adopt a child and this breaks the genetic linkage between parent and child, leaving only family influence which has miniscule effect.

If the students is intelligent, open to learning, behaves himself, etc then you could teach that student in a log cabin and he'll do well.

In my experience parental influence makes ALL the difference. 75% of children simply are not equipped to motivate themselves to excel in their school work.

And yet throughout all of history children managed to do just fine without hovering parents motivating them.

 

[SmarterThanTheAverageBear]

Basically, conservatives want to get rid of the teacher's unions because they want to get rid of public education.

It's as simple as that.

Beginning and end.

I believe conservatives just want competition for public schools in vouchers, forcing everybody to be competent.

Absolutely. Remember, diversity is good and vouchers represent diversity.

Vouchers are welfare, sorry but that is the truth.

I am against adding any new entitlement programs so..............

 

[Rikurzhen]

Basically, conservatives want to get rid of the teacher's unions because they want to get rid of public education.

It's as simple as that.

Beginning and end.

I believe conservatives just want competition for public schools in vouchers, forcing everybody to be competent.

Absolutely. Remember, diversity is good and vouchers represent diversity.

Vouchers are welfare, sorry but that is the truth.

I am against adding any new entitlement programs so..............

They're welfare to the same extent that public school funding is welfare. Vouchers are simply a method of allocating state funding of education to the student instead of the the school.

 

[saveliberty]

You think teacher quality has declined? Any idea how hard it is to get a computational math degree? My youngest has one and is an AP math teacher.

Parents and students have declined in quality.

Teacher pay should be base pay and bonus pay. You make $15/hr. base and bonus is based on your student's test scores on statewide tests administered by outside consultants.

 

[JakeStarkey]

How Does Teacher Tenure and Seniority Help Students?

The idea is that it protects teachers from meat heads in administration and the community.

The issue is how to weed out incompetent teachers without violating that protection from meat heads.

 

[Jackson]

I certainly appreciate the work teachers do, and I have no problems with giving teachers protections against rash terminations, but I'm not sure how teacher tenure and seniority rules help kids.

They don't help the kids; they help the teachers' unions.

It's not a coincidence that as the unions have gained power and money, that the quality of education has declined.

No, the quality of teaching has not declined.

You are delusional.

Teacher quality most certainly has declined. Women's lib dealt a death blow to teacher quality.

That of course has a lot to do with the district you're in.
We pay the highest school taxes in the state and the schools are excellent as far as public schools go. And you have students who are raised properly so that goes a long way in making a school successful.

All you need to know to make a highly accurate prediction about school quality is this - how good are the students. Student quality is the principal driving factor behind student outcomes. Not spending, not teacher tenure, not teacher training, not computerization. It's all about what the kid does with the material.

Incorrect. What you REALLY need to know is, how good are the parents.

No, it's not the parent who is being assessed, it's the student. A parent could adopt a child and this breaks the genetic linkage between parent and child, leaving only family influence which has miniscule effect.

If the students is intelligent, open to learning, behaves himself, etc then you could teach that student in a log cabin and he'll do well.

In my experience parental influence makes ALL the difference. 75% of children simply are not equipped to motivate themselves to excel in their school work.

That's why we need excellent teachers who can motivate students as well as teach.

 

[SmarterThanTheAverageBear]

I certainly appreciate the work teachers do, and I have no problems with giving teachers protections against rash terminations, but I'm not sure how teacher tenure and seniority rules help kids.

They don't help the kids; they help the teachers' unions.

It's not a coincidence that as the unions have gained power and money, that the quality of education has declined.

No, the quality of teaching has not declined.

You are delusional.

Teacher quality most certainly has declined. Women's lib dealt a death blow to teacher quality.

That of course has a lot to do with the district you're in.
We pay the highest school taxes in the state and the schools are excellent as far as public schools go. And you have students who are raised properly so that goes a long way in making a school successful.

All you need to know to make a highly accurate prediction about school quality is this - how good are the students. Student quality is the principal driving factor behind student outcomes. Not spending, not teacher tenure, not teacher training, not computerization. It's all about what the kid does with the material.

Incorrect. What you REALLY need to know is, how good are the parents.

No, it's not the parent who is being assessed, it's the student. A parent could adopt a child and this breaks the genetic linkage between parent and child, leaving only family influence which has miniscule effect.

If the students is intelligent, open to learning, behaves himself, etc then you could teach that student in a log cabin and he'll do well.

In my experience parental influence makes ALL the difference. 75% of children simply are not equipped to motivate themselves to excel in their school work.

And yet throughout all of history children managed to do just fine without hovering parents motivating them.

no they haven't , else we wouldn't be having this discussion

Also, while were on the subject, you want to know the REAL reason private schools do better than public schools?

Ok here it is

As a public school, you have to accept EVERY child that lives within your district. Doesn't matter if that kid comes in kicking and screaming and declaring every day that he doesn't want to learn, he has a right to be there. Doesn't matter that they are too handicapped to take advantage of any learning situation, they have a right to be there. Doesn't even matter if they can communicate with the teachers or not, they have a right to be there.

So you invariably have kids who neither they nor their parents give a shit about education and you have kids who's parents are essentially using the schoool as a baby sitter for their handicapped child, and ALL those kids are

A) Sucking up resources that could go towards educating kids who want to learn

and

B) being figured in the GPA averages and test score averages bringing the numbers down lower than they would naturally be without them

Meanwhile of course private schools first of all are expensive and so only families serious about education usually send their kids their and second of all can simply turn away kids who can't meet whatever standards they want to set.

So logically you can see that vouchers would start bringing the less able or willing students into private schools lowering their averages.

 

[Disir]

Like this:
The new Florida tests are to replace the math, reading and writing sections of the FCAT. They also will include new end-of-course exams in algebra 1, geometry and algebra 2. FCAT science exams will remain in place. There will be both paper-and-pencil and computer-based versions of the new exams.

"I am confident that his new assessment is the best decision for Florida students," Education Commissioner Pam Stewart wrote in a letter she sent to principals. "The assessment will help us keep all students on their path to be college and career ready."

Now that Stewart selected Florida's next test maker, the state will finalize a $220 million, six-year contract with the research group, nicknamed AIR.

The new tests, like FCAT, will be used to help make promotion and graduation decisions for students, grade public schools and evaluate teachers.

Examples of the new tests should be ready for the public to review by early summer, Stewart said.

AIR won Florida's business because it proposed a cost-effective plan for delivering quality tests, Stewart said. The firm was one of five that made a bid.
Florida picks FCAT replacement for 2015 - Sun Sentinel

That's just the F-Cat. Doesn't include all other tests.

Then there is this:
Before Tuesday's meeting, Scott had been aggressively touting his pitch to increase public school spending by $542 million. He repeatedly mentioned that the boost would drive education spending to a record high of $18.84 billion.

The superintendents said they were pleased with the overall recommendation, which would increase per student funding by $169 to about $6,949.

But they voiced concerns about the $80 million set aside for maintenance in traditional public school districts and $72.1 million reserved for projects in seven small districts.

Some of the most pointed criticism came from superintendents in Republican counties.

St. Johns superintendent Joe Joyner, whom Scott had considered for lieutenant governor, said the money did not go far enough.

Joyner noted that districts had gone years without designated construction and maintenance funding from the state, and that capital needs had accumulated.

"Eighty million will help, but the issue is huge for us across the state," he said.

The elephant in the room: Scott's proposed budget includes $90.6 million in maintenance funding for privately managed charter schools, which enroll less than 10 percent of public school students in Florida. (New charter schools would have to serve at-risk students to qualify.)
School superintendents say Gov. Scott s proposed education budget does not go far enough Tampa Bay Times

Charter Schools USA (CUSA) has been operating charter schools in Florida for 20 years, including recently-opened schools in Hillsborough County: Woodmont Charter, Winthrop Charter, and Henderson Hammock Charter. Although charter schools sometimes struggle financially at first, CUSA eventually collects a 5% management fee from each to provide administration and guidance.

But 10 Investigates found a much bigger pot of money CUSA has been able to tap into: rent. When the company helps open a new school, its development arm, Red Apple Development, acquires land and constructs a school. Then, CUSA charges the school high rent.

For example, Winthrop Charter in Riverview may struggle to balance its budget this year thanks to a $2 million rent payment to CUSA/Red Apple Development. The payment will equate to approximately 23% of its budget, even though CUSA CEO Jon Hage has been quoted as saying charter school rent should not exceed 20%.

Both CUSA and Winthrop Charter officials tell 10 Investigates that the schools are operated as nonprofit entities, and robust FCAT scores and happy parents are proof of success.

Charter School Profits Grow for Investors Through Real Estate Deals

It isn't choice. It's about scamming money.

It has nothing, btw, to do with tenure or unions.

 

[saveliberty]

How Does Teacher Tenure and Seniority Help Students?

The idea is that it protects teachers from meat heads in administration and the community.

The issue is how to weed out incompetent teachers without violating that protection from meat heads.

Sometimes it isn't competency Jake. The teacher just burns out and stops caring.

 

[JakeStarkey]

How Does Teacher Tenure and Seniority Help Students?

The idea is that it protects teachers from meat heads in administration and the community.

The issue is how to weed out incompetent teachers without violating that protection from meat heads.

Sometimes it isn't competency Jake. The teacher just burns out and stops caring.

A burned out teacher who does not care is incompetent, has to be. How to remove the teacher without threatening the good teachers is the problem.