How Does Teacher Tenure and Seniority Help Students?

[ricechickie]

They belong in some other form of remedial program that teaches them how to take care of themselves as much as possible. Mainstreaming them with kids who are far beyond their limited capacity is unfair to both groups of students.

I tend to agree.....to an extent. But there's been a push to mainstream students with disabilities.....as I keep saying.

 

[Clementine]

A California court struck down teacher tenure and seniority provisions. The unions, as expected, are protesting.

Teachers unions are fighting back against a California ruling that gutted two things they hold sacred: tenure laws and seniority provisions. But they face an uphill battle to reshape their image as opponents—and even some allies—say they are standing in the way of needed improvements in education. ...

Teachers union critics say the tenure and seniority laws that were hobbled by the June ruling protect longtime educators who are ineffective while more proficient ones with less experience face layoffs first. ...

The developments have left the nation's two largest teachers unions in a quandary: how to alter the perception that they are obstacles to change while holding on to principles such as tenure that their members demand.

The unions used their recent national conventions to respond and have notched up the rhetoric. The National Education Association, the largest teachers union at about three million members, elected a new president who called certain teacher-performance metrics such as test scores "the mark of the devil."

The American Federation of Teachers, the second-biggest union at about 1.6 million members, backs a new group, Democrats for Public Education, which advocates for the union's causes. "Sadly, what has changed is that rather than helping teachers help kids, some…are suing to take away the voices of teachers," said AFT President Randi Weingarten. ...

In the California case, a state judge in June struck down certain protections for teachers, including tenure after about two years on the job and seniority protections in layoffs. He found in the case, Vergara v. California, that the measures can entrench unqualified teachers, preventing minority and low-income students from receiving the equitable public education required by the state's constitution.

http://online.wsj.com/articles/teachers-unions-under-fire-1409874404?mod=WSJ_hp_RightTopStories

I certainly appreciate the work teachers do, and I have no problems with giving teachers protections against rash terminations, but I'm not sure how teacher tenure and seniority rules help kids.

Tenure and seniority don't help the students. Might even hurt them if their teachers aren't afraid of losing their jobs for poor performance.

 

[boedicca]

They belong in some other form of remedial program that teaches them how to take care of themselves as much as possible. Mainstreaming them with kids who are far beyond their limited capacity is unfair to both groups of students.

I tend to agree.....to an extent. But there's been a push to mainstream students with disabilities.....as I keep saying.

Yes, there has. I have a friend who is a school psychologist in a very wealthy school district. Parents with severely autistic kids threaten to sue the schools if their kids aren't put into a regular class room. The end result has been massive disruption (one autistic kid would actually masturbate in the class room) so the that it is very difficult for the normal kids to learn. We're making everyone a Special Ed case....

 

[Darkwind]

Teachers should make money. Why should they not? They make a pittance. That's what they make.

Of course they should be paid. What they are paid can in no way be described as a pittance.

 

[Disir]

It's called inclusion, folks. You can win an IEP and the sole task is to pick up the pencil and move it across the desk.

 

[HereWeGoAgain]

Special needs is usually housed in the public school.

Not sure if serious.....

 

[Darkwind]

CEO's take money from their stockholders.
Teaches make money.

Teachers, much like CEO's, earn a salary. They make no wealth of their own.

Wrong. A CEO guides the company in the proper direction to make it profitable. This creates jobs and money for the companies stockholders.
In fact he makes wealth for hundreds of people,if not thousands.

The corporation makes wealth. The CEO earns a salary, usually in the form of a stock, in lieu of a wage.

Try again.

 

[Disir]

Special needs is usually housed in the public school.

Not sure if serious.....

Meaning that special needs classrooms are in the same building as the mainstream classes.

 

[HereWeGoAgain]

They belong in some other form of remedial program that teaches them how to take care of themselves as much as possible. Mainstreaming them with kids who are far beyond their limited capacity is unfair to both groups of students.

I tend to agree.....to an extent. But there's been a push to mainstream students with disabilities.....as I keep saying.

If you want to integrate these students in a social setting fine. Or if they're capable of keeping up I'm fine with that as well.
But the second they become disruptive or hold back the rest of the class other arrangements need to be made.

 

[Disir]

That is what everybody keeps saying.

 

[HereWeGoAgain]

CEO's take money from their stockholders.
Teaches make money.

Teachers, much like CEO's, earn a salary. They make no wealth of their own.

Wrong. A CEO guides the company in the proper direction to make it profitable. This creates jobs and money for the companies stockholders.
In fact he makes wealth for hundreds of people,if not thousands.

The corporation makes wealth. The CEO earns a salary, usually in the form of a stock, in lieu of a wage.

Try again.

I dont need to try again. CEOs most certainly generate wealth by making good decisions. How many CEOs do you know?

 

[Rikurzhen]

I think it's time to simply accept that we as a society are pretty much going to have this same level of measured intellect that has always been there. There will be the exceptionally smart, the exceptionally dense and the large group inbetween.

Not society, population group. Population group IQ is stable. Societal IQ is a function of the composition of society.

American societal IQ has been dropping due to demographic change, while white IQ has remained stable.

Spending more has done zilch. Building more schools has done zilch. Head Start, Back to Basics, Race to the Top, Just Say No, whoever and whatever has done nada.

You're correct in your reading of past efforts.

What is the solution?

This may be a clue as to what one possible solution would be:

The number of working women has almost doubled in the last 40-50 years.

So when Jane gets home, instead of a parent being there to instruct her to finish the homework before playing or making phone calls, nobody is home since women and men are both working.

At some point, if we want to really strive toward the betterment our children's future, the parents have got to get more involved than they are now.

In no way am I saying that women should quit and go back home. But if you want your kid to buck the odds, it's probably a choice that parents have to make if available.

Politics have zero to do with this situation. Throwing more money at the problem has done nothing and paying teachers what Wal Mart associates make will obviously do nothing.

Daycare offloads childcare onto low paid, and likely low intelligence, people. These are the people setting the social environment for children. To whatever degree social environment influences the intellectual development of children, it's difficult for me to conceive of any advantage which flows from having the lowest bidder doing the best job.

 

[HereWeGoAgain]

Special needs is usually housed in the public school.

Not sure if serious.....

Meaning that special needs classrooms are in the same building as the mainstream classes.

I dont see a problem with that,in fact I think it's a good idea so they can be exposed to other students and hopefully learn some social skills.

 

[Disir]

Special needs is usually housed in the public school.

Not sure if serious.....

Meaning that special needs classrooms are in the same building as the mainstream classes.

I dont see a problem with that,in fact I think it's a good idea so they can be exposed to other students and hopefully learn some social skills.

Well, it's been a twenty year failure.

How about after school groups? How about sports? How about clubs where they actually socialize?

 

[HereWeGoAgain]

Special needs is usually housed in the public school.

Not sure if serious.....

Meaning that special needs classrooms are in the same building as the mainstream classes.

I dont see a problem with that,in fact I think it's a good idea so they can be exposed to other students and hopefully learn some social skills.

Well, it's been a twenty year failure.

How about after school groups? How about sports? How about clubs where they actually socialize?

Again it really has to do with the level of the disability.
You dont want to put a disabled child into a position that he/she is guaranteed to fail.
I would think that would do more harm then good.
And of course you know how cruel kids can be.
I really feel for parents in this situation,they of course want their child to grow up as normal as possible,but at the same time want to shield them from failure and possible ridicule.

 

[Rikurzhen]

This thread questions the value of tenure. If we focus on the learning outcomes achieved by US students (remembering that our spending on education per student is one of the highest worldwide) tenure could be abolished tomorrow with little or no effect on student learning. Compared to other industrialized countries:

"Lastly, not only did the US score below average in all areas, there was hardly any improvement between younger and older generations. For numeracy, older US adults (ages 55-65) performed near the average, but younger US adults (ages 16-24) scored dead last among all participating countries."

New OECD Study Finds America Lags Behind in Literacy Numeracy Technology Skills

Older Americans bring up the average a bit but teenager and young adult performance is so very poor. As quoted above we don't do well in math and we rank last in literacy among the 22 other countries examined.

A full report can be found here:

Study U.S. Adults Below Average In Literacy Basic Math The Two-Way NPR

.

That's a worthless study because the study has poor design. It doesn't control for population differences in the OECD countries. Here's what reality looks like when you do control for population differences:

There are clues within the study which hint at what is taking place. Older Americans score higher than younger Americans. Well, the demographic composition of older Americans is different from that of younger Americans, but even with older Americans, we're nowhere near as homogeneous as Denmark, Iceland, Germany, Finland.

 

[Disir]

Special needs is usually housed in the public school.

Not sure if serious.....

Meaning that special needs classrooms are in the same building as the mainstream classes.

I dont see a problem with that,in fact I think it's a good idea so they can be exposed to other students and hopefully learn some social skills.

Well, it's been a twenty year failure.

How about after school groups? How about sports? How about clubs where they actually socialize?

Again it really has to do with the level of the disability.
You dont want to put a disabled child into a position that he/she is guaranteed to fail.
I would think that would do more harm then good.
And of course you know how cruel kids can be.
I really feel for parents in this situation,they of course want their child to grow up as normal as possible,but at the same time want to shield them from failure and possible ridicule.

And it does do more harm than good. The reality is that we can't have it all. Not like this.

And they are ridiculed. Make no mistake there is bullying.

Many school districts don't want to pay for qualified special needs teachers. Most of the time they hire teacher's aides. Then there are kids that need to be tested for learning disabilities but the parents get the runaround. Some parents can afford to get an independent psych evaluation. Most can't.

There are states that include these kids in the testing.

 

[Rikurzhen]

I certainly appreciate the work teachers do, and I have no problems with giving teachers protections against rash terminations, but I'm not sure how teacher tenure and seniority rules help kids.

They don't help the kids; they help the teachers' unions.

It's not a coincidence that as the unions have gained power and money, that the quality of education has declined.

No, the quality of teaching has not declined.

You are delusional.

Teacher quality most certainly has declined. Women's lib dealt a death blow to teacher quality.

 

[Disir]

I certainly appreciate the work teachers do, and I have no problems with giving teachers protections against rash terminations, but I'm not sure how teacher tenure and seniority rules help kids.

They don't help the kids; they help the teachers' unions.

It's not a coincidence that as the unions have gained power and money, that the quality of education has declined.

No, the quality of teaching has not declined.

You are delusional.

Teacher quality most certainly has declined. Women's lib dealt a death blow to teacher quality.

You're wrong. It's the wrong thread to listen to you whine about why you are a failure as a man. Save it.

 

[Rikurzhen]

High school graduates who CAN'T READ?

I want to know what constitutes "can't read." I'm almost positive it doesn't mean complete illiteracy, but that they can't read beyond a certain grade level.

This should give you an indication of how loose the standards are. What we see here are students with a 12th grade reading ability in the same grade as those with a 7th grade reading level. It doesn't directly address your question of what constitutes "can't read" but you could probably find that answer by delving into the Standard Deviation data.