How do we stop "the poor" from being so problematic?

Yeah - the U.S. Constitution makes it very clear that the federal government is explicitly restricted to the 18 enumerated powers. Therefore the "general welfare" clause couldn't possibly extend beyond those 18 enumerated powers.

As Thomas Jefferson explained - the "general welfare" clause appplies only to those specific 18 powers.
Therefore the "general welfare" clause couldn't possibly extend beyond those 18 enumerated powers because it is ONE OF THE 18 ENUMERATED POWERS.
That's exactly what I said. That's exactly what Thomas Jefferson said. The federal government is explicitly restricted to 18 enumerated powers (delegated to them by the states). The "general welfare" clause is in regards to those 18 enumerated powers.

So for example: the federal government is tasked with defense. They have the power to tax for defense and make decisions about defense for the "general welfare" of the people.

The federal government is also tasked with protecting Intellectual Property. They have the power to tax for the Patent Office and make decisions about the Patent Office for the "general welfare" of the people.

And so on...
 
Because in the real world humans with brains are suppose to tailor their lifestyle to their income and not leverage their employers to tailor their income to their lifestyle....you understand the concept right? Employers shouldn't be held accountable for Juans lack of intelligence and poor decision making....right?
Minimum wage jobs are entry level jobs designed for high school kids and the brainless.
If 35 year old Juan and Guadalupe weren't trying to make burger flipping a lifelong career we wouldn't be having this conversation.
Would this be an issue if we sent 10 million or so Juan's and Guadalupe's home with their six anchors?
Doesn't that seem easier?

How many people out there that are flipping burgers as adults do you think have the intelligence to do anything more complex?

There are a lot of adults that are simply not smart, and it does not mean that they are lazy or they don't apply themselves or don't try hard. It means that they are not smart. And if flipping burgers, or collecting trash, or sweeping the floor is the best they can do, that's great. You should thank them for it, rather than telling them that they are a drain on society and they should try to make something of themselves.

Hey look...I see little wrong with adults working a child's job for life.
Where it becomes a wrong is when Juan, the burger flipper has six babies he can't afford on his salary then sends me the invoice and or begs and whines about needing more from consumers and taxpayers to pay for his poor decision making. Come on man... you can't be that stupid...not unless you're a Juan yourself?
In the real world if you want more you have to be willing to do more...you can't stand before your peers with a sad face and a hand out every time you want more. Sorry.

But what can you do about that?

And just to be clear, the adult burger flipper is more likely to be a Randy than a Juan.

NEGATIVE.
ShaQuita and Guadalupe are far more likely to be burger flipping lifers.

Minimum Wage workers according to the document linked below:
(see page 4)
White: 60,245,000
Black: 10.669,000
Hispanic: 15,301,000

https://www.bls.gov/opub/reports/mi...racteristics-of-minimum-wage-workers-2014.pdf

For every black minimum wage employee in this country, there are 6 white minimum wage employees.
For every hispanic minimum wage employee in this country, there are 4 white minimum wage employees.

Therefore, my statement is correct: "the adult burger flipper is more likely to be a Randy than a Juan."
 
How many people out there that are flipping burgers as adults do you think have the intelligence to do anything more complex?

There are a lot of adults that are simply not smart, and it does not mean that they are lazy or they don't apply themselves or don't try hard. It means that they are not smart. And if flipping burgers, or collecting trash, or sweeping the floor is the best they can do, that's great. You should thank them for it, rather than telling them that they are a drain on society and they should try to make something of themselves.

Hey look...I see little wrong with adults working a child's job for life.
Where it becomes a wrong is when Juan, the burger flipper has six babies he can't afford on his salary then sends me the invoice and or begs and whines about needing more from consumers and taxpayers to pay for his poor decision making. Come on man... you can't be that stupid...not unless you're a Juan yourself?
In the real world if you want more you have to be willing to do more...you can't stand before your peers with a sad face and a hand out every time you want more. Sorry.

But what can you do about that?

And just to be clear, the adult burger flipper is more likely to be a Randy than a Juan.

NEGATIVE.
ShaQuita and Guadalupe are far more likely to be burger flipping lifers.

Minimum Wage workers according to the document linked below:
(see page 4)
White: 60,245,000
Black: 10.669,000
Hispanic: 15,301,000

https://www.bls.gov/opub/reports/mi...racteristics-of-minimum-wage-workers-2014.pdf

For every black minimum wage employee in this country, there are 6 white minimum wage employees.
For every hispanic minimum wage employee in this country, there are 4 white minimum wage employees.

Therefore, my statement is correct: "the adult burger flipper is more likely to be a Randy than a Juan."


Minimum Wage workers according to the document linked below:
(see page 4)
White: 60,245,000
Black: 10.669,000
Hispanic: 15,301,000



What the fuck?


85 million minimum wage workers in a country of only 300 million people?

Are you and your link out of your crazy ass mind? That would equal like 75% of American workers making minimum wage LMFAO...


It's only 3% BTW...
 
Hey look...I see little wrong with adults working a child's job for life.
Where it becomes a wrong is when Juan, the burger flipper has six babies he can't afford on his salary then sends me the invoice and or begs and whines about needing more from consumers and taxpayers to pay for his poor decision making. Come on man... you can't be that stupid...not unless you're a Juan yourself?
In the real world if you want more you have to be willing to do more...you can't stand before your peers with a sad face and a hand out every time you want more. Sorry.

But what can you do about that?

And just to be clear, the adult burger flipper is more likely to be a Randy than a Juan.

NEGATIVE.
ShaQuita and Guadalupe are far more likely to be burger flipping lifers.

Minimum Wage workers according to the document linked below:
(see page 4)
White: 60,245,000
Black: 10.669,000
Hispanic: 15,301,000

https://www.bls.gov/opub/reports/mi...racteristics-of-minimum-wage-workers-2014.pdf

For every black minimum wage employee in this country, there are 6 white minimum wage employees.
For every hispanic minimum wage employee in this country, there are 4 white minimum wage employees.

Therefore, my statement is correct: "the adult burger flipper is more likely to be a Randy than a Juan."


Minimum Wage workers according to the document linked below:
(see page 4)
White: 60,245,000
Black: 10.669,000
Hispanic: 15,301,000



What the fuck?


85 million minimum wage workers in a country of only 300 million people?

Are you and your link out of your crazy ass mind? That would equal like 75% of American workers making minimum wage LMFAO...


It's only 3% BTW...


You read your down load wrong...



.
 
Yeah - the U.S. Constitution makes it very clear that the federal government is explicitly restricted to the 18 enumerated powers. Therefore the "general welfare" clause couldn't possibly extend beyond those 18 enumerated powers.

As Thomas Jefferson explained - the "general welfare" clause appplies only to those specific 18 powers.
Therefore the "general welfare" clause couldn't possibly extend beyond those 18 enumerated powers because it is ONE OF THE 18 ENUMERATED POWERS.
That's exactly what I said. That's exactly what Thomas Jefferson said. The federal government is explicitly restricted to 18 enumerated powers (delegated to them by the states). The "general welfare" clause is in regards to those 18 enumerated powers.

So for example: the federal government is tasked with defense. They have the power to tax for defense and make decisions about defense for the "general welfare" of the people.

The federal government is also tasked with protecting Intellectual Property. They have the power to tax for the Patent Office and make decisions about the Patent Office for the "general welfare" of the people.

And so on...

Shouldn't the general welfare clause apply to 17 enumerated powers...i.e. the powers that follow after it?

Because it IS one of the 18 as it is written in the Const.

As it is written now, Congress has the power to deliver mail. And they have the power to make coins. And they have the power to punish pirates. And they have the power to provide general welfare. Those are each a SEPARATE POWER that is given to Congress.

So if Congress was to decide that they wanted to deliver mail on Sundays, make a 57¢ coin, punish pirates by tickling them, and promote the general welfare of the citizens of the United States by giving each of them a puppy, they would have the power to do so, based on how the Constitution is written.

You can quote TJ as often as you want, but it doesn't change the ambiguity.

Tony Award-winning Founding Father Alexander Hamilton took a different view than TJ...

Alexander Hamilton said:
The phrase is as comprehensive as any that could have been used; because it was not fit that the constitutional authority of the Union, to appropriate its revenues shou'd have been restricted within narrower limits than the "General Welfare" and because this necessarily embraces a vast variety of particulars, which are susceptible neither of specification nor of definition.

It is therefore of necessity left to the discretion of the National Legislature, to pronounce, upon the objects, which concern the general Welfare, and for which under that description, an appropriation of money is requisite and proper. And there seems to be no room for a doubt that whatever concerns the general Interests of learning of Agriculture of Manufactures and of Commerce are within the sphere of the national Councils as far as regards an application of Money.

So from the very beginning, the term "general welfare" has been debated.
 
Shouldn't the general welfare clause apply to 17 enumerated powers...i.e. the powers that follow after it?
Yes. I've said that a dozen times now. It applies to all 18 enumerated powers and nothing else.
 
So if Congress was to decide that they wanted to deliver mail on Sundays, make a 57¢ coin, punish pirates by tickling them, and promote the general welfare of the citizens of the United States by giving each of them a puppy, they would have the power to do so, based on how the Constitution is written.
Uh....no they wouldn't. Because providing puppies is not one of the 18 enumerated powers.
 
It's the last thing on their mind as is being irresponsible and careless because there is always a lending hand in our government unfortunately.

If you promote irresponsibility, don't be surprised if you end up with more irresponsible people. Now let me ask: do you think we have more irresponsible people today or more in 1960?

Even kids have to make life changing decisions. You can get your kid a drivers license at the age of 16 in most states, but that doesn't stop them from getting drunk one night and killing a family in an auto accident. Their age doesn't excuse their actions. They have to pay one way or another for making that mistake.
You're comparing apples and oranges. Getting drunk and killing someone in a car accident is a criminal offense. Having a child is not. In fact, 37% of all children born in the US are unexpected or an accident.

A surprising number of people consider the birth of child, even to poor people to be a good thing.

When we're talking about tax payer dollars to support children in poverty, what their parents did or did not do is irrelevant unless you consider punishing the children is the proper course of action.

So the parents get immunity because of their children???

It's not apples and oranges in the sense of responsibility. You kill people because you got drunk and drove a vehicle, you pay. You get pregnant and have a child you can't support--taxpayers pay? Where is the equity in that?

There is no such thing as an accidental pregnancy. An accidental pregnancy implies that you got pregnant through no fault of your own. Kind of like you were just walking down the street minding your own business and tripped over something.
Unfortunately, yes parents do get immunity; that is they get food and shelter because they have children to raise. Conservatives have never been able to come up with a way of punishing the parents for being poor without punishing the children.

Conservative's war against the poor has reached a new low. In red states like Alabama, where many students are on reduced price lunches, school officials put tags on children that say, "I need lunch money", so kids will be shamed by their classmates in hopes that will cause parents to come up with lunch money.

New Mexico recently passed a law forbidden schools from punishing children with negative lunchroom balances. Some school serve kids without money the "sandwich of same" which is a slice of cheese between two slices of white bread. Other schools force children without lunch money to clean the lunchrooms in front of their classmates to work off the debt. Probably the worst incident was a 3rd grader who was forced to wear a sign that his parents were deadbeats resulting in a beating by classmates and his removal from the school.
New Mexico Outlaws School ‘Lunch Shaming’

Sorry I don't trust the Dailylunch.com, but I don't. Neither do I trust the NY Times which is an arm of the Democrat party.

As for ways to punish the parents instead of the children, I came up with an idea long ago: anybody applying for public assistance has to be fixed before getting one red cent. That's it. No more having children while on welfare.

School lunch? I remember that when I was in school. The kid with the free lunch would sell it at half price to a kid who's parents gave him lunch money. Then he would buy a candy bar or something. The rest of the money both kids saved they used to buy cigarettes or pot. Great program.

I don't know what school lunch costs today because it's subsidized by the taxpayers anyway, but let's say that a lunch costs four dollars. Four dollars is twenty bucks a week. If a parent doesn't have twenty bucks to give to their kid, that kid should be taken away from the parents.

Plus I would be willing to bet anything that many of those kids with free lunch belong to a family that uses food stamps and can easily make a lunch from that stipend. And I would bet that most of those kids getting free lunch have a cell phone with data for pictures, internet and video chat with their friends.
You must have been away from school a long time. In almost all schools today, lunchrooms have a account for each kid in which either the parent or district deposits funds monthly. No cash or lunch vouchers changes hands.

The National School Lunch Program was not a program to feed the poor. Conservatives have characterized it as such but that is entirely false. The sole purpose was to improve student performance in schools and reduce disciple problems.

The program was started in the US in 1946. It is based on sound research as well as empirical evidence that goes back several hundred years. It's value has been confirm over and over. When kids don't receive adequate meals at breakfast and lunch, no matter the reason, they do poorly in school and create discipline problems.

Anyone that has taught kids understands how hard it is to teach hungry kids. They don't pay attention and cause classroom disruptions. Even just a couple of hungry kids can destroy the learning experience for a class.


Today school lunch programs very similar to the US program are operating in over 60 countries.

I see. So now it's the taxpayers liability to feed kids so they can learn in taxpayer schools?

Do you think kids could learn better if we also had taxpayer cars so they could get to school? How about taxpayer cigarettes? After all, how can a kid learn if he or she craves tar and nicotine? Do you think kids can learn better if they were dressed nicely? Shouldn't we have taxpayer clothing as well?

I swear, liberals are doing everything they can to relieve parents from their obligations and burdening taxpayers with those obligations instead. 20 trillion in debt, but what about the kids?????
 
You can quote TJ as often as you want, but it doesn't change the ambiguity.
First of all - there is no "ambiguity". It says exactly what it says and it very clear. However, for those who are a little slow, Thomas Jefferson clarified it for them.
Congress had not unlimited powers to provide for the general welfare, but were restrained to those specifically enumerated; and that, as it was never meant they should provide for that welfare but by the exercise of the enumerated powers, so it could not have been meant they should raise money for purposes which the enumeration did not place under their action” - Thomas Jefferson (June 6, 1817)
“[We] disavow, and declare to be most false and unfounded, the doctrine that the [Constitution], in authorizing its federal branch to lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts, and excises to pay the debts and provide for the common defense and general welfare of the United States, has given them thereby a power to do whatever they may think, or pretend, would promote the general welfare–which construction would make that of itself a complete government, without limitation of powers.… The plain sense and obvious meaning were that they might levy the taxes necessary to provide for the general welfare by the various acts of power therein specified and delegated to them, and by no others. – Thomas Jefferson (December 24, 1825)
Sorry snowflake...you lose.
 
So if Congress was to decide that they wanted to deliver mail on Sundays, make a 57¢ coin, punish pirates by tickling them, and promote the general welfare of the citizens of the United States by giving each of them a puppy, they would have the power to do so, based on how the Constitution is written.
Uh....no they wouldn't. Because providing puppies is not one of the 18 enumerated powers.

But providing for the general welfare IS.

"Providing for the general welfare" is one of the 18 enumerated powers.

If someone made the argument that every American should have one meal per day, as it is part of their general welfare to survive as a human, then the Congress could make a law to provide one meal per day for the general welfare of the citizens.

It would not be unconstitutional to make this law because it would not violate one of the 18 enumerated powers.
 
That is correct. "General welfare". Could mean pretty much anything.
Which proves how idiotic your position is. Because that would mean unlimited power for the federal government and we all know (even the most radical left-wing asshat) that that is not the case.

Does the Constitution clarify the "general welfare" statement any further? Please enlighten me, since I need a lesson on the US Constitution.
Yeah - the U.S. Constitution makes it very clear that the federal government is explicitly restricted to the 18 enumerated powers. Therefore the "general welfare" clause couldn't possibly extend beyond those 18 enumerated powers.

As Thomas Jefferson explained - the "general welfare" clause appplies only to those specific 18 powers.

Thanks, friend.

I looked up the 18 enumerated powers...

and unless there is a DIFFERENT list of 18 enumerated powers, the FIRST of the 18 states:

"The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States" (emphasis mine)

Therefore the "general welfare" clause couldn't possibly extend beyond those 18 enumerated powers because it is ONE OF THE 18 ENUMERATED POWERS.

If I am wrong, and there is another 18 enumerated powers, please show me.

Thank you,
That only applies to the Republican Doctrine. They don't mind a drug war or terror that is not listed, either.
 
Well, Cleveland, I knew that you were radical, but I thought only Hitler forced sterilization on unproductive members of society.

Live, and learn!

I don't suggest anything that non-government dependents do. You get married, get a job, and have a family that your wages support. When you have enough kids, you get yourself fixed so you can't have anymore children because you resources can't support them.

Why is it "Hitleresque" to suggest that people who don't pay for their children do the same? And it's not forced sterilization. If you don't want to get fixed, get a fucken job and support your kids like everybody else does.

This is clear case how Democrats want more poor people for power. The apple doesn't fall far from the tree, so when you pay poor people to have poor children, how can you expect to eliminate poverty?
 
You can quote TJ as often as you want, but it doesn't change the ambiguity.
First of all - there is no "ambiguity". It says exactly what it says and it very clear. However, for those who are a little slow, Thomas Jefferson clarified it for them.
Congress had not unlimited powers to provide for the general welfare, but were restrained to those specifically enumerated; and that, as it was never meant they should provide for that welfare but by the exercise of the enumerated powers, so it could not have been meant they should raise money for purposes which the enumeration did not place under their action” - Thomas Jefferson (June 6, 1817)
“[We] disavow, and declare to be most false and unfounded, the doctrine that the [Constitution], in authorizing its federal branch to lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts, and excises to pay the debts and provide for the common defense and general welfare of the United States, has given them thereby a power to do whatever they may think, or pretend, would promote the general welfare–which construction would make that of itself a complete government, without limitation of powers.… The plain sense and obvious meaning were that they might levy the taxes necessary to provide for the general welfare by the various acts of power therein specified and delegated to them, and by no others. – Thomas Jefferson (December 24, 1825)
Sorry snowflake...you lose.

If there was no ambiguity in what Article 1, Section 8, Clause 1 ("general welfare") actually means, Thomas Jefferson would not have to make a clarifying statements 25 and 37 years after the Constitution was ratified.

Where in the Constitution does it say "restrained to those specifically enumerated"? It doesn't.

And because Jefferson clarified what he had meant decades after the Constitution had been ratified, does not change the fact that he did not write what he intended in 1788.
 
That is correct. "General welfare". Could mean pretty much anything.
Which proves how idiotic your position is. Because that would mean unlimited power for the federal government and we all know (even the most radical left-wing asshat) that that is not the case.

Does the Constitution clarify the "general welfare" statement any further? Please enlighten me, since I need a lesson on the US Constitution.
Yeah - the U.S. Constitution makes it very clear that the federal government is explicitly restricted to the 18 enumerated powers. Therefore the "general welfare" clause couldn't possibly extend beyond those 18 enumerated powers.

As Thomas Jefferson explained - the "general welfare" clause appplies only to those specific 18 powers.

Thanks, friend.

I looked up the 18 enumerated powers...

and unless there is a DIFFERENT list of 18 enumerated powers, the FIRST of the 18 states:

"The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States" (emphasis mine)

Therefore the "general welfare" clause couldn't possibly extend beyond those 18 enumerated powers because it is ONE OF THE 18 ENUMERATED POWERS.

If I am wrong, and there is another 18 enumerated powers, please show me.

Thank you,
That only applies to the Republican Doctrine. They don't mind a drug war or terror that is not listed, either.

That's true.

And what is this:

"To raise and support Armies, but no Appropriation of Money to that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years"

Does that mean that armies were meant to be created and defunded every two years?
 
Tony Award-winning Founding Father Alexander Hamilton took a different view than TJ...
I'd bet my house that the LWNJ actually believes that Alexander Hamilton won a "Tony Award". :lmao:

Two very important distinctions to be made here:
  • In no way does that quote by Hamilton state that the "general welfare" clause grants the federal government powers beyond their 18 enumerated powers. Quite the contrary - it affirms exactly what I have stated multiple times. That within their 18 enumerated powers (delegated to them by the states), they have relatively broad powers. They are not terribly limited with how they can manage the Patent Office, the Post Office, coining money, etc.
  • Alexander Hamilton is a really bad person to rely on. Sadly, the U.S.'s first progressive has become the hero of the left after the American people were educated on who Thomas Jefferson actually was (the previous hero of the uninformed, uneducated left). Alexander Hamilton was such an asshole that he was universally hated by his peers. He was the mortal enemy of Thomas Jefferson and Vice President Aaron Burr actually killed the mother fucker in a duel. Not really the best "founder" to lean on. You might want to try Washington, Franklin, Jefferson, etc. Just say'n
 
If there was no ambiguity in what Article 1, Section 8, Clause 1 ("general welfare") actually means, Thomas Jefferson would not have to make a clarifying statements 25 and 37 years after the Constitution was ratified.
Yes he would...because there have always been radical left-wing fascists such as yourself frustrated by the U.S. Constitution preventing power over others and as such, looking for ways of circumventing it and discrediting it.
 
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Where in the Constitution does it say "restrained to those specifically enumerated"? It doesn't.
So far I have completely obliterated your false narrative about the U.S. Constitution with facts. I'm about to do it again. If you're absurd claim that the "general welfare" clause grants the federal government unlimited power, why was the 16th Amendment necessary?
The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several States, and without regard to any census or enumeration.
According to you - they already had all of the power they needed for taxes (and anything else). So why would they redundantly reaffirm their ability to tax income when the power was already granted by the "general welfare" clause? Oops...

:dance::dance::dance:
 
Sorry snowflake...you lose.

Yes he would...because there have always been radical left-wing fascists such as yourself frustrated by the U.S. Constitution preventing power over others and as such, looking for ways to circumvent it and discrediting it.

Ad hominems.

I win.
"Ad hominem"? How are fascists during Thomas Jefferson's era an "Ad hominem"? Are you now proclaiming that you were around back then as well?
 
That is correct. "General welfare". Could mean pretty much anything.
Which proves how idiotic your position is. Because that would mean unlimited power for the federal government and we all know (even the most radical left-wing asshat) that that is not the case.

Does the Constitution clarify the "general welfare" statement any further? Please enlighten me, since I need a lesson on the US Constitution.
Yeah - the U.S. Constitution makes it very clear that the federal government is explicitly restricted to the 18 enumerated powers. Therefore the "general welfare" clause couldn't possibly extend beyond those 18 enumerated powers.

As Thomas Jefferson explained - the "general welfare" clause appplies only to those specific 18 powers.

Thanks, friend.

I looked up the 18 enumerated powers...

and unless there is a DIFFERENT list of 18 enumerated powers, the FIRST of the 18 states:

"The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States" (emphasis mine)

Therefore the "general welfare" clause couldn't possibly extend beyond those 18 enumerated powers because it is ONE OF THE 18 ENUMERATED POWERS.

If I am wrong, and there is another 18 enumerated powers, please show me.

Thank you,
The Supreme Court held the understanding of the General Welfare Clause contained in the Taxing and Spending Clause adheres to the construction given it by Associate Justice Joseph Story in his 1833 Commentaries on the Constitution of the United States.[5][6] Justice Story concluded that the General Welfare Clause is not a grant of general legislative power,[5][7] but a qualification on the taxing power[5][8][9] which includes within it a federal power to spend federal revenues on matters of general interest to the federal government.
General welfare clause - Wikipedia


This does not support your conclusion that it is an enumerated power but it does support the premise that congress can spend money on damn near anything it chooses, which of course should be evident when you look at the debt.
 
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