How did you reach your conclusion

[ABikerSailor]

Actually, Fitz, that is one of the concepts of the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle. The wave exists in all states, UNTIL just one of them is observed.

Then, the wave form collapses and only 1 result is recorded and experienced.

Schrodenger's kitten.

So essentially I control how reality will be is the root of this theory.

Then why is it not obeying me?

It WILL do stuff for you, but you've got to learn something about the underlying reality of the Universe.

Unless of course, a belief in holy underpants, and getting your own planet to rule over after you die appeals to you, if that's the case, become a Moron like Turd Seeker.

But, if you pay attention to how the world operates, eventually you will be able to interact with those laws, and cause things to happen that some people would call "miracles".

That's kind of what Abraham did. Matter of fact, that's how he was able to see God.

It's also what Taoists do. They look at the relationships between the various things on the planet, and how those relationships interact with others.

Oh yeah.......it's also what the scientists knew as well.

But the coolest part? It's also what Yeshua taught to His disciples.

Matter of fact, the whole story about Yeshua walking on the Sea of Galilee? It was a place where He was trying to teach His disciples how to do what He did.

He was trying to teach them how to walk on the water.

Only 1 disciple was willing to walk out there with Him, and he was doing it up until the point of Yeshua letting go of his hand.

Then he fell into the water.

It's also rumored that He traveled to India where He wrote the Tibetan Book of the Dead, as well as taught some students how to fly.

By the way..........those lessons are still applicable today, only you have to pay a whole bunch of money for it in the form of books like "the Secret".

Incidentally, did you know that we are all big magnets, for whatever we wish to materialize to ourselves?

A helpful couple of books to show you the way of that school of thought are "Jonathan Livingston Seagull" and "Illusions".

Both by Richard Bach.

Oh yeah........if you get a chance to come across "the Messiah's Handbook" by him, get that one as well.

 

[☭proletarian☭]

Great, a tree falling in the forest guy. A guy who at times has argued away his own existence because someone else hasn't seen him. His credibility is therefore nonexistent until someone can actually witness it.

All things exist in all states until the wave function collapses

I'm sorry prol, but this is where your philosophy just loses all credibility to me. Nothing exists till I experience it.

That's not philosophy, you idiot. It's physics. Look it up.

 

[Big Fitz]

All things exist in all states until the wave function collapses

I'm sorry prol, but this is where your philosophy just loses all credibility to me. Nothing exists till I experience it.

That's not philosophy, you idiot. It's physics. Look it up.

and yet you base your entire belief system on it if I am to understand the Positivists. So... Where'm I wrong?

 

[☭proletarian☭]

Where are you wrong? For one, in thinking that you've written a coherent sentence, you are wrong.

 

[MajikMyst]

That your God/faith or lack thereof was correct?

I had to think about this for a few days before I could respond.. It really is a good question..

When I was a teenager.. I spent the summer with a christian familiy.. They talked in tongues, went to church 3 times a week.. Us kids went to youth group and we all went to Nancy Harmon which was a christian performer in Portland Ore.

After about a week or so the problems started.. First?? I was told I had to change the kind of music I liked.. I am a child of the 80's so it was Madonna, Phil Collins, Bon Jovi, Duran Duran, ect. ect. Phil Collins was half of a group called Genesis, and some of thier songs have a christion tone to them.. Well.. I didn't like that.. There was nothing wrong with my music.. Then I was told my parents were of the devil.. They didn't even know my parents.. How could they make that judgement especially when the bible says not to?? I never got my prayer language.. For those that don't know.. That is speaking in tongues.. So?? I made one up.. Using a line from the movie 'Excalibur'.. The spell that Merlin used in the movie.. It worked and they bought it..

The next issue, was that we were encouraged to sleep with other kids of the opposite sex.. I was 15 and the sleeping arrangments always put me with a 14 year old girl named Tracey or 15 year old Rebecca.. Sex was encouraged.. Even though David, the other boy my age and his partner were in the same room as us.. So you had Tracey and I and Rebecca and David in the same room.. Or the girls would switch.. We never had sex, and the girls were often blamed for it..

There was a 7 year old boy there named Micha.. He had got a splinter in his hand from the barn.. It became badly infected, yet they refused to take him to the hospital.. They wanted to cure him with prayer.. After about a week or so, his thumb became black and he started to sleep more and more.. The two older boys, myself and David called 911 after everyone was in bed asleep.. We went to the hospital with him and he was admitted on sight.. He spent almost a week recieving intense antibiotics to save his thumb.. Doctor said that had we waited much longer he would have lost it, perhaps his entire hand.. DSHS was notified as all these kids were foster kids and they shut down, and were brought up on criminal charges.. David and I were not foster kids..

As I became an adult.. I have never met or seen a christian that I would want to consider a friend.. I find them to be racist, ignorant, hateful, spiteful, extremely judgemental, and over all unchristian.. Please understand, this is an observation.. Some of the christians on this board match that description.. Now you may say that I am judging christians.. Well.. I was not commanded not to.. But reguardless.. I am not condemning them in any way.. Except that I choose not to be friends when them.. Which is my right.. I am not saying they are going to go to hell, or they can't get married..

Why are christians against the idea of global warming and mans responsibility?? Why do they call liberals tree huggers?? Why aren't they tree huggers?? God left them responsible for them planet.. Why don't they want to take care of it??

Religions history is littered with death and bloodshed.. Things that the christians church has yet to take resonsibility for.. Which brings up another point.. The belief that all you have to do is take Christ in your heart and youi will be saved.. So?? You can live your entire life as a child rapist, a murder, and a thief, and on your death bed take Christ in your heart and you will be saved??? Someone who has lived a good life, helped his fellow man, done the best he could but is an athiest is going to hell??? I think not..

So what did it for me?? Christians aren't people that want to help other people.. Sure they have charities.. But seriously.. I don't see to many christians on this board supporting a public option for healthcare.. I don't see to many christians supporting gay marriage.. After all they were commanded not to judge.. Sure, they can know and feel that homosexuality is wrong.. But it isn't for them to act on it.. It isn't for them to pass judgement and condemn.. Christians don't listen to their own bible and their own teachings..

When I was a child being a christian put a badge on you of being good and righteous.. Now?? To me it means you are what is wrong with humanity..

 

[Foxfyre]

When I was a child being a christian put a badge on you of being good and righteous.. Now?? To me it means you are what is wrong with humanity..

I am truly sorry that you had the bad experience you describe. I have long thought that many reject Christianity because of the truly ugly way in which they were introduced to Jesus Christ. I imagine few are persuaded to be Christian by being told they are going to hell.

But if the atypical people you lived with--they are NOT the usual or normal Christian if they are in fact Christian--had no right to judge you or your parents, perhaps you could see that you would also be wrong to judge others when you have no way of knowing what is in their heart or what they do. That some corrupt or turn inward in destructive ways a personal belief is not an indictment of all.

You see I live in a world where Christians make a positive difference and where almost all are truly good people who would love you, care for you when you were sick, feed you if you are hungry, clothe you if you are naked, help you heal physical, spiritual, and emotional pain, visit you if you are in prison. I look at the soup kitchens, homeless shelters, thrift shops, orphanages and homes for troubled children, treatment centers, free medical services, legal services, halfway houses, leper colonies, wheelchair ministries, famine relief, prison ministries, and hands on work with some of the world's poorest and in almost every single case, these ongoing year in and year out efforts are staffed and funded by Christians or others of deep faith, many of whom give almost all of their time and personal wealth to the effort.

Christians are just as supportive of the environment and want dirty soil, air, water no more than you do and appreciate the aesthetic beauty of God's creation and the creatures on it just as you do. Some are almost militantly involved in promoting enviromental issues. But usually a Christian is unwilling to agree to increase human suffering, especially for unproved or unlikely theories. Don't be too quick to judge their motives.

Atheists/anti-religious are mostly not bad people at all and many do good works in various ways, but I don't know many who devote a good deal of time and personal resources to relieve human suffering among total strangers. And I don't know any who found and staff the kinds of ministries just mentioned. For that reason, if I was not already a believer, I think logic and reason would require me to look more closely at what it is that motivates Christians to selfless love that you simply don't see in many other places.

 

[Truthspeaker]

I have not reached a conclusion overall but I think I'm understanding things a lot more than I used to...

That's great. I'm glad to hear a human voice for the first time in a while.

 

[Truthspeaker]

you keeping quoting it and denying you wrote what you just quoted yourself as writing..

are you confused?

dog is NOT cat. dog is opposite of cat.

you keep saying -cat=dog

when i say you're a retard, you object and say you really met to say -cat=dog

now you state that cat=/= dog (no ******* shit; we already knew that), but rather -cat=dog


stop hitting your head like that; you've precious few brain cells left.

Why should we believe the nonsense you keep sputtering?

 

[Big Fitz]

Where are you wrong? For one, in thinking that you've written a coherent sentence, you are wrong.

Makes perfect sense to me.

Where are you wrong?

Physics = philosophy

If you don't experience it personally, it doesn't exist except in theory. That's personal/scientific uncertainty... not truth.

 

[Truthspeaker]

Yo.......No Truth Speaker..........exactly where is a cat "opposite" of a dog?

Most of the characteristics of a cat are exactly the SAME as a dog.

Oh wait.......I keep forgetting......you place everything in the narrow bias of your belief system.

Opposite, rooted in the word oppose. Most dogs oppose cats, and vice versa capeesh?

 

[Truthspeaker]

And? Faith spells the end of honest consideration of the facts. Just look at the Catholics or the Warmers.

I see no difference between the two, really.

Let's talk about that. How much evidence have you ignored in support of the existence of a God?

Why do you think because you have found one false religion that they are all false? If there is an opposite for everything, there must be a true religion out there somewhere right?

How arrogant of you to say that because Einstein admitted that there was a God, that he was unwilling to honestly consider facts?
Are you smarter than Einstein?
Do you consider yourself privy to information he was not?
How long have you been so self conceited?
Answer me! Still waiting....

Truth... don't be so rough on him. He's already decided that there is nothing supernatural in reality. He has closed off that section of his mind or possibility. You aren't going to be able to communicate on the same levels. He can't understand what you're saying and you can't understand what he's saying because you both come from completely opposite paradigms. I suspect I'm closer to understanding his view, but because of my philosophy I vehemently disagree with his conclusions.

Well I think I do understand clearly his mindset. Deep down in his heart of hearts, he knows that a God exists. He's just jealous of Him and bitter towards him because of his lack of understanding so he claims there is none to the rest of us. But I can see that he is just lying to himself.

 

[Care4all]

I was just brainwashed from the very beginning....as soon as i was baptized as an infant! POOF! That was it....religious Faith was just there.... I tried to ignore it, and rebrainwash myself in to a nonfaithful bloke-ess but my initial mind control couldn't be broken!

 

[Truthspeaker]

Unless of course, a belief in holy underpants, and getting your own planet to rule over after you die appeals to you, if that's the case, become a Moron like Turd Seeker.

You know so little about what I actually believe that it makes you look even more a fool.

But, if you pay attention to how the world operates, eventually you will be able to interact with those laws, and cause things to happen that some people would call "miracles".

Finally we agree on something.

That's kind of what Abraham did. Matter of fact, that's how he was able to see God.

More acurately that's why God allowed Abraham to see him. He obeys his own laws of nature.

It's also what Taoists do. They look at the relationships between the various things on the planet, and how those relationships interact with others.

Really?

Oh yeah.......it's also what the scientists knew as well.

Which scientists?

But the coolest part? It's also what Yeshua taught to His disciples.

You don't like calling him Jesus do you? But you are right. Jesus taught that through faith, all things are possible. It is a law just like any other.

Matter of fact, the whole story about Yeshua walking on the Sea of Galilee? It was a place where He was trying to teach His disciples how to do what He did.

Peter's faith wavered and that's why he sunk.

It's also rumored that He traveled to India where He wrote the Tibetan Book of the Dead, as well as taught some students how to fly.

It's also known that he visited just about everywhere and taught his doctrine to different parts of the world besides the fertile crescent area. Including the Americas. John alluded to this at the end of his book.

By the way..........those lessons are still applicable today, only you have to pay a whole bunch of money for it in the form of books like "the Secret".

No you don't have to pay a dime. You can seek out God on your own and he will instruct you as far as you want to be instructed.

Incidentally, did you know that we are all big magnets, for whatever we wish to materialize to ourselves?

Sort of.

 

[Big Fitz]

I was just brainwashed from the very beginning....as soon as i was baptized as an infant! POOF! That was it....religious Faith was just there.... I tried to ignore it, and rebrainwash myself in to a nonfaithful bloke-ess but my initial mind control couldn't be broken!

Sorry, I wasn't able to catch that. I was blinded by your avatar's geek pinup girl hotness.

 

[☭proletarian☭]

[
Where are you wrong?

Physics = philosophy
.

Read the thread again. I have been speaking of the division this whole time, you twit If you recall, it was I who demonstrated why psychology is philosophy and not science,

 

[☭proletarian☭]

Why should we believe the nonsense you keep sputtering?

Says the idiot who thinks -cat=dog

 

[Big Fitz]

[
Where are you wrong?

Physics = philosophy
.

Read the thread again. I have been speaking of the division this whole time, you twit If you recall, it was I who demonstrated why psychology is philosophy and not science,

I'm going off the definition of the 'faith/philosophy' based on Positivism which you said is the basis to your beliefs. They use, from what I can understand of it, optics and physics as the basis in which to model their philosophy.

 

[☭proletarian☭]

Optics? What are you reading?

Basically:
-We cannot know what is true or false, only whether a given model is useful. For instance: we cannot know that the person before us is truly sentient like ourselves. However, the simplest and most useful explanation for their actions and responses (considering all other information available to us, such as the fact that they appear to be biologically the same as us) is that they, too, are sentient agents. Thus, when constructing our model or understanding of the universe, we include the person before us not as a robot or a toy that repeats the same phrase over and over (politicians may be an exception), but as a sentient mind like ourselves. Similarly, we cannot know that we are sitting down and typing on a computer, posting to a site called USMB. It is possible that we are unconscious in the hospital and this is all a dream. However, the evidence available to us supports the first model/theory and there is no evidence to support the latter. Thus, we operate under the model that we're currently posting to USMB.

Ultimately, the entire model of the surrounding universe will boil down, if one continues, to accepting the input from our senses and operating under the model that they represent the world around us because it is a useful model (it allows to me interact with the surrounding universe as I perceive it) and there is no evidence to support any other theory or model to explain my experience of out senses.

Logical positivism is basically skepticism taken to the nth degree.

 

[Truthspeaker]

I

had to think about this for a few days before I could respond.. It really is a good question..

I really appreciated your response thank you. Perhaps some of us can help you realize that you were not with Christians in your youth. You were with wolves in sheeps clothing.

After about a week or so the problems started.. First?? I was told I had to change the kind of music I liked.. I am a child of the 80's so it was Madonna, Phil Collins, Bon Jovi, Duran Duran, ect. ect. Phil Collins was half of a group called Genesis, and some of thier songs have a christion tone to them.. Well.. I didn't like that.. There was nothing wrong with my music.. Then I was told my parents were of the devil.. They didn't even know my parents..

These people were totally out of line with human decency and with the teachings of Jesus. They invented their own doctrines.

How could they make that judgement especially when the bible says not to??

They can't.

I

never got my prayer language.. For those that don't know.. That is speaking in tongues.. So?? I made one up.. Using a line from the movie 'Excalibur'.. The spell that Merlin used in the movie.. It worked and they bought it..

I think that's hilarious. Also it is NOT of God to spout off in languages that have no meaning to the hearer. It is confusion and is of the devil and not God. God's lessons always enlighten the mind and understanding. Clarity is of God. The true use of tongues is when necessary arrangements cannot be made for the translation of doctrinal sermons from one language to another. On the day of Pentecost there were many different peoples who did not speak the same language. The miracle occured when the speakers were inspired by God to speak in the hearer's native tongue. The purpose was for clarity, not for confusion. The devil's counterfeit is to become "possessed" either actually or pretended and wrought upon to speak in strange utterances, whether real or pretended.

The next issue, was that we were encouraged to sleep with other kids of the opposite sex.. I was 15 and the sleeping arrangments always put me with a 14 year old girl named Tracey or 15 year old Rebecca.. Sex was encouraged.. Even though David, the other boy my age and his partner were in the same room as us.. So you had Tracey and I and Rebecca and David in the same room.. Or the girls would switch.. We never had sex, and the girls were often blamed for it..

Good for you kids not giving in to the pressure. Obviously there is no biblical basis for such instruction and I cringe at the kind of people you were around. I don't blame you for your dislike of "Christians".

There was a 7 year old boy there named Micha.. He had got a splinter in his hand from the barn.. It became badly infected, yet they refused to take him to the hospital.. They wanted to cure him with prayer.. After about a week or so, his thumb became black and he started to sleep more and more.. The two older boys, myself and David called 911 after everyone was in bed asleep.. We went to the hospital with him and he was admitted on sight.. He spent almost a week recieving intense antibiotics to save his thumb.. Doctor said that had we waited much longer he would have lost it, perhaps his entire hand.. DSHS was notified as all these kids were foster kids and they shut down, and were brought up on criminal charges.. David and I were not foster kids..

these so called zealots misunderstand the doctrine of healing by faith. God is the one who inspired medicine. Miracle healings are only reserved for when all else fails. God wants us to take care of ourselves with the elements he has provided in our natural environment.

As I became an adult.. I have never met or seen a christian that I would want to consider a friend.. I find them to be racist, ignorant, hateful, spiteful, extremely judgemental, and over all unchristian.. Please understand, this is an observation.. Some of the christians on this board match that description.. Now you may say that I am judging christians.. Well.. I was not commanded not to.. But reguardless.. I am not condemning them in any way.. Except that I choose not to be friends when them.. Which is my right.. I am not saying they are going to go to hell, or they can't get married..

It's too bad you have been unlucky enough to have only met pretended Christians.

Why are christians against the idea of global warming and mans responsibility??

I am one who is not. But many Christians ignore global warming for the same reasons that little boy was not taken to the hospital. Assuming God will take care of everything. And he will, but that is not a license to pollute our planet that God has provided for us.

Why do they call liberals tree huggers??

Well some are overly "environmental" and it's not just some Christians who call them that. Certainly not all Christians. And some are smart enough to know that not all liberals are tree huggers.

Why aren't they tree huggers?? God left them responsible for them planet.. Why don't they want to take care of it??

I believe in protecting our environment and cutting down on excess. I love trees. I don't know if that makes me a tree hugger but I am anti pollution. We should all clean up after ourselves. I don't think that has anything to do with party affiliation or religion. It's just commons sense.

Religions history is littered with death and bloodshed..

It is not the religion that is to be blamed usually, but the evil people who use it as their shield by misinterpreting true doctrines.

Things that the christians church has yet to take resonsibility for.. Which brings up another point.. The belief that all you have to do is take Christ in your heart and youi will be saved.. So?? You can live your entire life as a child rapist, a murder, and a thief, and on your death bed take Christ in your heart and you will be saved??? Someone who has lived a good life, helped his fellow man, done the best he could but is an athiest is going to hell??? I think not..

There is no "Christian church". they are all separate from each other . There is only one true church of Christ and that is the one and only church Jesus assembled himself. All others are pretenders that give true Christians a bad name.
The doctrine of salvation by lipservice is a doctrine of the devil. It simply cannot be true logically, mathematically or philosophically. It just doesn't make sense and was NEVER taught by Jesus or his apostles. So called "Christians" have twisted the words of the Bible to excuse their behavior and invented doctrine of lipservice salvation.

Judgment is not dealt by man. It is dealt out by God with regard to the purity of a man's heart, and not with the name of his Church.

So what did it for me?? Christians aren't people that want to help other people.. Sure they have charities.. But seriously.. I don't see to many christians on this board supporting a public option for healthcare..

Well have you asked any of us? And have you asked us why we support what we support?

I don't see to many christians supporting gay marriage.. After all they were commanded not to judge.. Sure, they can know and feel that homosexuality is wrong.. But it isn't for them to act on it.. It isn't for them to pass judgement and condemn.. Christians don't listen to their own bible and their own teachings..

On this we may have to disagree. The Bible has spoken much by way of condemnation of the practice, but not so much the person. True Christians love all people, regardless of their weaknesses. They realize that some are tempted some ways and some tempted other ways. Some have a weakness for the temptation of homosexuality but not in other regards. That doesn't make others better than them. We all suffer from vices that make us all equally unworthy. A liar isn't more acceptable than a homosexual. A thief isn't better than a murderer. All sins are equally unacceptable in the sight of God.

No one should condemn another because of their imperfection. This is the doctrine of Christ. Those who condemn homosexuals to hell are no different than the Pharisees of Jesus day who look for the mote in the eye of the homosexual but ignore the beam of hypocrisy in their own eyes. Such people are in more danger than the people they condemn. Are not those the words of Jesus? Judge for yourself.

When I was a child being a christian put a badge on you of being good and righteous.. Now?? To me it means you are what is wrong with humanity..

Hopefully I have helped to change your perspective.

 

[Truthspeaker]

I was just brainwashed from the very beginning....as soon as i was baptized as an infant! POOF! That was it....religious Faith was just there.... I tried to ignore it, and rebrainwash myself in to a nonfaithful bloke-ess but my initial mind control couldn't be broken!

Funny but could you tell us how you became converted to your religious mindset? What events caused you to rationalize that your religious view made the most sense to you?