How did you reach your conclusion

[Big Fitz]

-We cannot know what is true or false

Here's the fundamental disagreement. Moral relativism. I do not believe, nor will I accept we operate in a moral vacuum. There is an objective moral absolute that is independent from man. Don't bother trying to change my mind for I believe this with the same ferocity you have against religion and faith.

To be honest, I really see this conversation as having moved past useful and seeks to do nothing more than to muddy waters and serve as bait for personal attacks.

 

[Foxfyre]

The bible says jesus spoke in parables to confuse people so they'd go to hell

Big time fail. The bible says the opposite. I'm calling you out on chapter and verse where it says that.

Mark 4:10

But here is where the more poorly schooled reader gets into trouble with Biblical interpretation. Jesus was first of all a Jew teaching in the manner of the rabbis (Jews) to a mostly or all Jewish audience. He expected them to know their scriptures and this statement was almost certainly a reference to Isaiah 6 that was so important in teachings in the Synagogue that it has parallel passages in also Matthew and Luke.

Secondly, all Jewish teachings are taught within the full context of all teachings again which the audience is expected to be well schooled. So any given phrase may assume a different meaning within the full cotnext of all teachings--something that is not easily translated into English and 21st Century ways of looking at things. The passage in Isaiah refers to an unbelieving people that fall away from Yhwh but nevertheless a stump (of the faithful) will remain--evidence that no matter how difficult it gets or how unfaithful the people are, YHWH will not be unfaithful to his promises.

And in the manner of Jewish teachings of that time, Jesus fully expected his audience to place the parable related in Mark within the whole of his teachings which were clear and obvious that God did not want anyone to perish.

To pluck one line out of the whole and hold it up as 'evidence' of what is taught simply won't hold up in careful and thorough Bible scholarship.

One must be even more careful to calculate the full context of these particular teachings as the synoptic Gospels (Matthew, Mark, Luke) are a collection of historical bits and pericopes (sayings) edited together in a theological tapestry not intended to be read as prose or any kind of chronological account of events.

So, if you take all the pericopes (sayings) of Jesus and stack them up against Mark 4:10-12, you will have a much different message than attempting to use one phrase as proof text of a particular point of view.

And also important is that the literal translation from the Greek is 'so that they will not be forgiven (at that time)' and it doesn't say so that 'they will go to hell'.

 

[Caligirl]

That your God/faith or lack thereof was correct?

My 'god/faith or lack thereof' is that it doesn't matter what the "answer" is, what matters is that I make the best decision that I can in this moment -

-that is exercising free will
-that is living for the glory of god
-that is living the purpose - driven life
-and that has nothing to do with whether god exists or not, is has to do with the fact that it is the only choice any of us have - ever - how we spend this moment. We got nothing else.

And I learned that from my kid dying.

 

[☭proletarian☭]

There is an objective moral absolute that is independent from man.

Evidence?

 

[Foxfyre]

There is an objective moral absolute that is independent from man.

Evidence?

The evidence is in how little man knows at any given time when compared to all there is to know. And in how poorly humankind is able to agree on the best thing to do assuming that there is a better way for the greatest good.

 

[ABikerSailor]

Also I see this thread has been completely derailed. I'll be signing off now. Come harass me in the The Truth about Mormons and I'll continue showing you your error in scriptural comprehension.

Don't you mean that "my attempts to derail this thread have been defeated, and since I'm no longer able to confuse simple minded twits into converting over to Moronism, I'm going to leave back to the Truth About Morons thread, where I can continue to confuse and bewilder people, hoping to convert them to Moronism, so that I can start my own Temple. These people scare me because I can't bullshit them as easily as they do in church".

Yeah........we knew what you really meant Turd Seeker.

Now **** off and go play, adults want to discuss REAL belief systems.

 

[MajikMyst]

Hopefully I have helped to change your perspective.

I wouldn't say you have changed my perspective.. But perhaps given me hope that not all christians are idiots..

For reasons stated earlier.. I am not a christian.. I have however done some research into the bible and know a little about what it says..

“Judge not, that ye be not judged” (Matthew 7:1) and “Judge not, and ye shall not be judged, condemn not and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven” (Luke 6:37)

Those two versus basically say that christians shouldn't pass judgement or condemn anyone.. So?? On the gay marriage front.. While you can say and believe it is wrong.. It isn't for you to make that judgement and condemn them to less rights than say someone else.. Voting against gay marriage is unchristian.. Just because you vote for gay marriage doesn't mean you personally approve of them.. But you are allowing them the same rights as everyone else..

"And when you pray, you must not be like the hypocrites; for they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and at the street corners, that they may be seen by men. Truly, I say to you they have received their reward. But when you pray, go into your room (or closet.) and shut the door and pray to your Father who is in secret..." (Matthew 6:5-6 RSV)

This verse always sorta confused me in that Jesus seems to be saying not to go to church.. Which in a way also makes sense in that I belive that someone's relationship with god and Christ should be private and personal.. Yet christians congrigate into these mega churches and have no problems with publc displays of their beliefs.. So which christians is it I see on televion or on the news??

Exodus 22:16-17 says that a raped virgin must marry her seducer or rapist..

While this has been passed off as being old testament?? How can christians pick and choose what they will believe or won't? Creation is old testament as is the 10 commandments..

Christians condemn someone for getting an abortion yet neglect to mention that they are telling one of the largest lies in history.. Which is breaking a commandment law..

Jesus Christ was not born on Dec. 25th.. He was born in March. So biblically.. Christmas has no association with Christ.. Unless it is in contradiction..

So how does christianity carry on with these blatant lies??

 

[☭proletarian☭]

"And when you pray, you must not be like the hypocrites; for they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and at the street corners, that they may be seen by men. Truly, I say to you they have received their reward. But when you pray, go into your room (or closet.) and shut the door and pray to your Father who is in secret..." (Matthew 6:5-6 RSV)

This verse always sorta confused me in that Jesus seems to be saying not to go to church.. Which in a way also makes sense in that I belive that someone's relationship with god and Christ should be private and personal..

77 Jesus said, "I am the light that is over all things. I am all: from me all came forth, and to me all attained.

Split a piece of wood; I am there. Lift up the stone, and you will find me there."Thomas, 77

​

 

[PixieStix]

Jesus Christ was not born on Dec. 25th.. He was born in March. So biblically.. Christmas has no association with Christ.. Unless it is in contradiction..

So how does christianity carry on with these blatant lies??

Christmas is about the celebrating the birth of Christ. While the time of year may be off. That is not the point, the point is that we celebrate it. By the way the death and resurrection that is the most important day that we as Christians celebrate. We may be off on that date as well. But we still celebrate it. We are not perfect. Just forgiven

 

[☭proletarian☭]

Gotta make sure I only select what I'm trying to copy before hitting ctrl+c
>.>

 

[☭proletarian☭]

Christmas is about the celebrating the birth of Christ

I see history is not your strongest subject.

the point is that we celebrate it. By the way the death and resurrection that is the most important day that we as Christians celebrate.

You mean Eostre's day?

 

[Douger]

I have seen no evidence that God exists.

Your avatar just made a believer out of me !

Anyone with an IQ over 100, that actually READS the bible, will see some real prophesy and time-lines mixed with a fairy tale written by men who wanted control.

IMNSHO There are many things we don't understand.
I have studied all religions for many, many, years and long before we had the Internet I knew they were all based on Astrology.
BUT
Nearly all contain information that was not scientifically proven until very recently.
My belief is there is, indeed, more to the stories.

 

[editec]

How did you reach your conclusion

That your God/faith or lack thereof was correct?

Oh the usual...

I was burning some bush when God told me that I was right and everybody else was mistaken.

God also told me I could heal the sick and raise the dead in his name, but after I ate a pint of Hagen Daze I wasn't in the mood to do much expect watch some tube and contemplate the significance of being the only right person (about God) on earth.

 

[Smartt33]

Hopefully I have helped to change your perspective.

I wouldn't say you have changed my perspective.. But perhaps given me hope that not all Christians are idiots..

For reasons stated earlier.. I am not a Christian.. I have however done some research into the bible and know a little about what it says..

Of course, you decide who is or is not an idiot, right? I suppose you believe that judging and condemning people is OK, right?

“Judge not, that ye be not judged” (Matthew 7:1) and “Judge not, and ye shall not be judged, condemn not and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven” (Luke 6:37)

Those two versus basically say that Christians shouldn't pass judgment or condemn anyone.. So?? On the gay marriage front.. While you can say and believe it is wrong.. It isn't for you to make that judgment and condemn them to less rights than say someone else.. Voting against gay marriage is unchristian.. Just because you vote for gay marriage doesn't mean you personally approve of them.. But you are allowing them the same rights as everyone else..

I know this will not go far through your perspective blinders, but I will address it anyway. If God has already made a judgment, and even a condemnation, I would say that agreeing with Him is not wrong. I also would say that If we measure morality according to the Words of God, the measurement would not be from our judgmental perspective, but according to God's. There is nowhere in the Bible that God ever addresses marriage in terms of anything other than a man and a woman. Parents are always a husband and wife. Marriage is significant in the scriptures, and it seems to me like if gay marriage was appropriate it would have been addressed. However, In a round-about way I believe it has been addressed. Sex outside of marriage is condemned by God. Sexual activity between members of the same sex is also condemned. Both of these would have to mean that a marriage between members of the same sex would be inappropriate, a sin. Marriage is mainly for procreation, and same sex marriages cannot do that.

Voting for gay marriage, when we believe that is a sin, would be a sin for us. a vote for is an approval of. If I don't approve of any candidate for a particular office, I don't vote for one of them. I know that doesn't make a difference in the election, but I also believe that when I vote for someone I approve of them. If I can write in another name, I will.

With that said, I do believe we are supposed to love homosexuals. I believe we are to love everyone. As a matter of fact, I will carry that further, I don't believe a Christian is living out their Christian life if they can hate anyone. I even believe they may not be a Christian at all. However, calling sin, sin, and not liking a behavior, is not wrong. We can judge a behavior, but not the person.

"And when you pray, you must not be like the hypocrites; for they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and at the street corners, that they may be seen by men. Truly, I say to you they have received their reward. But when you pray, go into your room (or closet.) and shut the door and pray to your Father who is in secret..." (Matthew 6:5-6 RSV)

This verse always sorta confused me in that Jesus seems to be saying not to go to church.. Which in a way also makes sense in that I believe that someone's relationship with god and Christ should be private and personal.. Yet Christians congregate into these mega churches and have no problems with public displays of their beliefs.. So which Christians is it I see on television or on the news??

This verse was talking about hypocrites. It is saying for Christians not to be like them. It is basically saying that prayer has no motive or agenda outside of the personal talk with God. It needs not be seen or heard by others. However, the verse does not say never to pray in public. Even Jesus prayed in public. We are instructed to "pray without ceasing". This would indicate that we can pray anywhere, and even then no one would necessarily know we are praying. So, certainly in our homes and in the closet, are not the only places we should pray. "public display" for recognition is certainly not appropriate.

Christians are also instructed to gather together for worship and prayer. The church is created for that purpose. God attends our rime together. Scriptures say that "God inhabits the praises of His people." It also says, "Where two or three are gathered in My name, there I am also."

So, I can see why you are " sorta confused." Your perspective is controlling what you see.

Exodus 22:16-17 says that a raped virgin must marry her seducer or rapist..

While this has been passed off as being old testament?? How can Christians pick and choose what they will believe or won't? Creation is old testament as is the 10 commandments..

All I really need to say here is that when you say, "I have however done some research into the bible and know a little about what it says.. " Your "some research" seems to have been guided by your controlling perspective, and that is why you " know a little about what it says.. " Not trying to be mean here, just pointing out the fact that those who have given their lives to Bible study and research, and who were able to overcome their perspective biases, do know far more than you or I. I think you might want to give their work a little review. Oh, and I am talking about researchers who agree with, disagree with, and who have overcome both biases in order to discover what the Bible really says.

In other words, on the verse above, you need to do a lot more study.

Christians condemn someone for getting an abortion yet neglect to mention that they are telling one of the largest lies in history.. Which is breaking a commandment law..

We must love those who have abortions. We must not condemn them. However, depending on the reason for the abortion, we can certainly identify it as sin. I don't believe Christians condemn those who have abortions, I believe for the most part they love them. However, sadly there is that minority group who fall away from God's command to love them. This is a subject dear to my heart, and I do love those who have had abortions.

Jesus Christ was not born on Dec. 25th.. He was born in March. So biblically.. Christmas has no association with Christ.. Unless it is in contradiction..

So how does Christianity carry on with these blatant lies??

We don't celebrate the date, we celebrate the event. Most non-believers cannot seem to get that. Oh, we don't know when Jesus was actually born, and your pointing it out that it was in March is an assumption. It may be correct, but still not any more than an assumption. You don't even understand Christmas, so I certainly don't think your little Bible research has much credibility. Rather than calling Christians liars, you need to stop listening to the lies of those who are anti-Christians. That is where you are getting your information. I think that is where most of your research is done, on their websites.

Josh McDowell began research to discredit Christianity and the Bible, as a result of that effort, He became one who has discovered the truth far deeper than most Christians and others in the world. Read "Evidence that Demands a Verdict". Either version.

Note: I put this through a spell check and both of our errors were corrected. Hope that is OK.

 

[Foxfyre]

. . . .For reasons stated earlier.. I am not a christian.. I have however done some research into the bible and know a little about what it says..

“Judge not, that ye be not judged” (Matthew 7:1) and “Judge not, and ye shall not be judged, condemn not and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven” (Luke 6:37)

Those two versus basically say that christians shouldn't pass judgement or condemn anyone.. So?? On the gay marriage front.. While you can say and believe it is wrong.. It isn't for you to make that judgement and condemn them to less rights than say someone else.. Voting against gay marriage is unchristian.. Just because you vote for gay marriage doesn't mean you personally approve of them.. But you are allowing them the same rights as everyone else.

First, there is no modern Christian doctrine that assigns or declines rights to anybody. There are only laws/rules/counsel to live by. The ancient Jews--both those who accepted Christ and those who didn't--also had laws/rules/counsel to live by. And so do modern Jews and Christians. Some Christians do not accept homosexual acts as approved behavior; some Christians ordain openly gay people as their pastors and spiritual leaders. Some Christians believe that unborn baby is a human being and that it is destroying a human life to kill it. Other Christians are so liberal that they support partial birth abortions. Most Christians probably are pro-life but allow that there are a very few valid reasons to have an abortion. Hopefully most people now are of sufficient education and intelligence to know not to judge ancient people by modern concepts of morality, and also not to assume that those who share one attitude or belief share all attitudes and beliefs.

"And when you pray, you must not be like the hypocrites; for they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and at the street corners, that they may be seen by men. Truly, I say to you they have received their reward. But when you pray, go into your room (or closet.) and shut the door and pray to your Father who is in secret..." (Matthew 6:5-6 RSV)

This verse always sorta confused me in that Jesus seems to be saying not to go to church.. Which in a way also makes sense in that I belive that someone's relationship with god and Christ should be private and personal.. Yet christians congrigate into these mega churches and have no problems with publc displays of their beliefs.. So which christians is it I see on televion or on the news??

The teaching here has nothing to do with going to church. There was no church when the teaching was given. The teaching is in the typical Jewish parable or metaphorical method of illustrating the point that true prayer is to God and not for show or to solicit admiiration of others.

Exodus 22:16-17 says that a raped virgin must marry her seducer or rapist.

While this has been passed off as being old testament?? How can christians pick and choose what they will believe or won't? Creation is old testament as is the 10 commandments..

Christians condemn someone for getting an abortion yet neglect to mention that they are telling one of the largest lies in history.. Which is breaking a commandment law.

The Exodus passage, translated correctly as much as possible, does not refer to rape but refers to the obligation of the man who seduces the woman. As he has thus made her much less desirable for marriage, he is obligated to pay the bride-price and marry her. Or if her father won't give her in marriage, the seducer is obligated to pay the bride-price anyway. This is a pretty liberal rule for a very conservative ancient people and is quite just and pro-female considering the way they looked at morality, marriage, and obligation.

You do understand, however, that Exodus reflects a period of Jewish history roughly two millenia or more prior to the birth of Jesus of Nazareth? It is not Christian law or teaching but is ancient Hebrew law.

And the concept of treating others as we want them to treat us dovetails beautifully into the teaching that if you want to be forgiven, then it is only logical that one should be willing to forgive.

Jesus was not born on Dec. 25th.. He was born in March. So biblically.. Christmas has no association with Christ.. Unless it is in contradiction..

So how does Christianity carry on with these blatant lies?

No one who has even looked at the historical or theological record presumes to know what month or even precisely what year Jesus was born. Certainly the ancient theologians didn't presume to know and I know not a single recognized denomination who teaches that Christmas signifies the date on which Jesus was born. Christmas is the designated date to recognize or celebrate the birth of Christ. There is a huge difference between those two things.

You are most misinformed to think you can make any kind of valid case that Jesus was born in March. From the opening prologue to the Gospel of John:

In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made. . . .The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and Only who came from the Father, full of grace and truth. (John 1 & 14 RSV)

Christmas or the Christ Mass was established in the Fourth Century A.D. to acknowledge and recognize that Jesus was born and did walk upon Earth - fully human and fully divine. There was no effort to establish December 25 as the date of birth of Jesus. It pulls in the O.T. prophecies and Matthew and Luke embellish that with imagery that something quite remarkable and wonderful happened.

As for Creation there are two creation stories in Genesis 1 and 2, and these two versions somewhat contradict each other. The first chapter of Genesis is actually one of the newest manuscripts of the Old Testament and is a pure doctrinal statement to illustrate that God made the universe and the Earth and everything that is in both. The second story in Genesis 2 is a much older manuscript and is to inform that God is involved in his creation, he makes the rules, and is also a metaphorical explanation of how sin entered the world and began little by little spoiling God's perfect creation.

If you read the Bible through the eyes of those who wrote it rather than through a 21st Century experience, it all mostly makes very good sense and can bless the reader. It is also important to know that all Jewish teachings are expected to be included within the full context of all Jewish teachings. To cherry pick or pluck out one or two verses as a proof text to discredit the whole is far more incorrect than anything taught in the Old Testament.

(Disclaimer: there are very good, devout Christians who are able to reconcile the contradictions in their minds and accept the Bible literally as if it was written in the 21st Century. I disagree with these good people on various points here and there, but figure God blesses them for their faithfulness just as much as any other.)

 

[amrchaos]

I have seen no evidence that God exists.

Your avatar just made a believer out of me !

Anyone with an IQ over 100, that actually READS the bible, will see some real prophesy and time-lines mixed with a fairy tale written by men who wanted control.

IMNSHO There are many things we don't understand.
I have studied all religions for many, many, years and long before we had the Internet I knew they were all based on Astrology.
BUT
Nearly all contain information that was not scientifically proven until very recently.
My belief is there is, indeed, more to the stories.

What if I was able to show that many of the prophecies occurred before they were written down? What would you say then, that the prophetic signs can be shown to exists during any generation??

I say so. What good are they now?

 

[☭proletarian☭]

The Exodus passage, translated correctly as much as possible, does not refer to rape but refers to the obligation of the man who seduces the woman.

Rape is seduction? Nice revisionist bullshit, but it's still bullshit.

 

[midcan5]

This is that rare long thread that I read [perused] with interest.

I never hear anyone say the reason 'I' believe as I do is because that is what I was taught - feed with my mother's milk or the air I breath. Or even 'I' grew into it either with peers or friends and today I feel comfortable with that belief. Imagine the Pygmy who lived in darkest Africa and never heard of anything you believe. He would not understand you as you would not understand him. Or imagine the thousands of belief systems that this all too conscious creature, this human, created for any number of reasons we could assign or debate.

Feeling is the key here as most arguments that pretend towards reason and science are only about feelings. Faith is even more about feelings. Objectively feelings are about how our minds have been patterned throughout life, and what brings peace and comfort. The pygmy would not understand the idea of redemption as you would not understand his feeling about eating meat. I personally grew up always doubting the religion that we were taught. My feelings were, an all powerful creator with purpose, just didn't jive with what I saw or read about the world.

1) If you were gawd could you allow the world to continue if even a single child suffers horribly? The answer for the religious is too easy, for others irrelevant, and for a few a tragic and complex decision. And please, no arguments that it is necessary for us to know the tree of knowledge, as that too is not a reason or justification for such extreme suffering.

2) What would it mean to live forever? A billion years from now what would you do? As you go through your day look at all the people, and all the people that have passed and consider that they all will live forever. It seems to me the simple view is the clear view. Enjoy life now and be good and do good if you can.


PS Why do some pick on Catholics? I was raised there and their problem is they really do believe in education and study. It is why in America they are rarely listened to. Same with the Jewish, an open, liberal education leads to thought and decisions, that don't always align with religion.


I see after coming back to this thread that Care4All gave a partial answer, it made her feel good and she is sticking with it. Good for Care.

 

[Hawkins]

Those two versus basically say that christians shouldn't pass judgement or condemn anyone.. So?? On the gay marriage front.. While you can say and believe it is wrong.. It isn't for you to make that judgement and condemn them to less rights than say someone else.. Voting against gay marriage is unchristian.. Just because you vote for gay marriage doesn't mean you personally approve of them.. But you are allowing them the same rights as everyone else..

"And when you pray, you must not be like the hypocrites; for they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and at the street corners, that they may be seen by men. Truly, I say to you they have received their reward. But when you pray, go into your room (or closet.) and shut the door and pray to your Father who is in secret..." (Matthew 6:5-6 RSV)

We can judge to say what sin is, we can't judge an individual, we will leave that to God.

This verse always sorta confused me in that Jesus seems to be saying not to go to church.. Which in a way also makes sense in that I belive that someone's relationship with god and Christ should be private and personal.. Yet christians congrigate into these mega churches and have no problems with publc displays of their beliefs.. So which christians is it I see on televion or on the news??

Actually, Jesus asked Peter to found the church.

Exodus 22:16-17 says that a raped virgin must marry her seducer or rapist..

While this has been passed off as being old testament?? How can christians pick and choose what they will believe or won't? Creation is old testament as is the 10 commandments..

Exodus is talking about how the Jews as slaves are brought out of Egypt. As slaves, Egyptians can do whatever they want to the Jews, including raping. Jews as slaves don't have the Law concept untill Moses brought them the 10 commandments and later on the development of the Mosaic Law. It takes time for those lawless slaves (they obey only masters not law) to adapt into Mosaic Law. Before that protection of their wives or daughters perhaps are the jobs of the family. And in case a tragedy occurs, it is thus up to the families to settle. Perhaps using money or possession as compensation, the offender may have to take care of the girt in his life time. While the Egyptians can rape their wives and girls at will, the Jews don't seem to need to kill the rapists. The families will the responsibility to protect their women, perhaps by hiding them at home from being exposed.

Christians condemn someone for getting an abortion yet neglect to mention that they are telling one of the largest lies in history.. Which is breaking a commandment law..

Humans are brutal in human history. That's what humans are in the history of humanity and it is human's fault. And human behavior in history has much less to do with Christianity itself and today's Christians. You are using today's standard to measure what humanity is in the past.

Jesus Christ was not born on Dec. 25th.. He was born in March. So biblically.. Christmas has no association with Christ.. Unless it is in contradiction..

Noone actually knows the exact birthday of Jesus Christ. Dec 25 originally was a day for the celebration of a greek god (Apollo perhaps). At the time when Christianity is legalized, it is turned to a celebration of Christ's birth.

So how does christianity carry on with these blatant lies??

Now what's that other your own baseless assertion.

 

[ABikerSailor]

How did you reach your conclusion

That your God/faith or lack thereof was correct?

Oh the usual...

I was burning some bush when God told me that I was right and everybody else was mistaken.

God also told me I could heal the sick and raise the dead in his name, but after I ate a pint of Hagen Daze I wasn't in the mood to do much expect watch some tube and contemplate the significance of being the only right person (about God) on earth.

What kind of bush was it? Columbian, Alaskan, Mexican, Canadian, or some of that high quality Amsterdam bush?