How come patriotism isn't a sin?

[manifold]

I know it sounds a bit silly at first, but think about it. Patriotism falls under the umbrella of pride and pride is one of the seven deadly sins. If I were a flag-waving fundie, how would I go about reconciling this conflict between my love for my country and my love for my savior?

 

[Ravi]

Fundies don't believe in the concept of sin.

duh

 

[jillian]

Not being Christian, I wouldn't really opine, but Jesus did say, give unto Caesar what it Casar's, no?

If I were a right wing fundie, I'd be more concerned about opposing helping disadvantaged people in favor of discriminating against gays given that Jesus said not word one about gays but made an awful lot of statements about caring for the poor and weak.

Just my opinion.

 

[jillian]

Fundies don't believe in the concept of sin.

duh

Huh?

What about that whole hate the sin, love the sinner stuff they like to toss around?

 

[manifold]

Gunny should really consider some sort of sarcasm brackets or identifying emoticon.

 

[Ravi]

Huh?

What about that whole hate the sin, love the sinner stuff they like to toss around?

I don't think Gandhi is the type of fundie he's talking about.

 

[jillian]

Gunny should really consider some sort of sarcasm brackets or identifying emoticon.

It's entirely possible that my sarcasm meter is a bit off today given I'm still a bit jet-lagged.

 

[manifold]

R,

That was sarcasm, right?

 

[Shogun]

I don't equate patriotism with pride so i'd call shenanigans on the assumption of such.

When did jebus ever suggest it was a sin to have a non-christian identity?

 

[Ravi]

which? Your original post, my first answer, or my second answer?

btw

[sarcasm] [/sarcasm]

 

[manifold]

I don't equate patriotism with pride so i'd call shenanigans on the assumption of such.

When did jebus ever suggest it was a sin to have a non-christian identity?

Not surprising. You rarely restrict yourself to the generally accepted definitions of things so why would you this time around?

 

[Paulie]

I know it sounds a bit silly at first, but think about it. Patriotism falls under the umbrella of pride and pride is one of the seven deadly sins. If I were a flag-waving fundie, how would I go about reconciling this conflict between my love for my country and my love for my savior?

I'm not proud of my country right now at all. In fact, frankly, I'm embarrassed by it. But that doesn't stop me from being a "patriot" in the sense of what the founders saw patriotism as. I still canvass my community and attend political meetings to try and make changes. When the colonists revolted against the british empire to gain independence, they weren't proud of their current country one bit. They were appalled at how it was being controlled, so they did something about it.

They didn't sit and watch the news (read the newspaper) so they could decide who to VOTE for, they got off their asses and put their lives on the line for their country.

What is sinful about that?

 

[manifold]

They didn't sit and watch the news (read the newspaper) so they could decide who to VOTE for, they got off their asses and put their lives on the line for their country.

What is sinful about that?

Nothing I can think of. But you said yourself, they weren't patriotic to the crown so as much as I might agree with your post, it doesn't really address the question I asked.

 

[frazzledgear]

I know it sounds a bit silly at first, but think about it. Patriotism falls under the umbrella of pride and pride is one of the seven deadly sins. If I were a flag-waving fundie, how would I go about reconciling this conflict between my love for my country and my love for my savior?

Huh? Patriotism isn't "pride". Pride is pride. Patriotism is the love and respect a person has for his/her own country. I can feel quite patriotic about my country while also not proud at all of a particular event it engaged in. Ruby Ridge, the Tuskagee Experiment, slavery, the internment of more than 100,000 AMERICANS for nothing but their Japanese heritage and their possessions sold for ten cents on the dollar -all great failures of our government in which people often paid with their lives, health and welfare. And each of them examples of government turned on its own -which our founders considered the worst possible failing of any government.

Because they so feared the new experiment they created with this form of government, they tried to build into our Constitution the means for citizens to demand rectification of such acts so it cannot be repeated. People of so many other nations have no such ability and no "right" to demand such a thing -much less freely elect the people who promise to do so and if they fail to do so, peacefully remove them for others of their choice. It is something that far too many Americans take for granted and place so little value on for themselves that they have no problem condemning others to exist under a brutal regime that has turned against its own citizens. If you value it for yourself, it is actually extremely difficult to turn around and tell yourself that other people of the world have no use for it themselves and their misery under brutal regimes just isn't important. As a Christian, it is impossible for me to tell myself that the suffering of others under brutal regimes is not important.

In my case I value the kind of government we have -a representative republic -and have no desire to see it substituted with ANY other kind. Without citizens who feel patriotic about their own nation, what would stop the eventual bastardization of our form of government into one that has historically proven to be a failure. One that can only lead to once again a form of government that inflicts misery on its own citizens and is already doomed to eventual collapse? You can't improve this form of government by turning to a known historical failure and trying to imitate it. It isn't a perfect form of government -there is no such thing. Government is just other people and anything people are involved in will make mistakes and sometimes horrific ones. You can only make sure that real power lies in the hands of the people -with what our founders considered a God-given right to freely choose our own leaders and peacefully remove them and replace them with others of our own choice in order that the people can demand a government that cannot turn on its own citizens in like fashion in the future.

What I find amazing is how some people have insisted this word (along with quite a few others) have a fluid definition that means whatever they need it to mean at the moment -all in order to pretend that if Americans in particular, feel patriotic -it is actually something bad and undesirable.

Patriotism itself is not bad since the people of nearly every nation on earth feel patriotic towards their own nation. What acts a nation engages in, while specifically trying to exploit the natural feelings of patriotism citizens have for their own country -can be. Nazi Germany is a fine example of that -but was also a nation that had targeted part of its OWN citizens for destruction. An evil.

But patriotism itself is not evil and is certainly NOT incompatible with Christianity. Patriotism is what makes people work to make it even better, WANT to see it made better. It involves inspiring expressions urging others to work for the same. I could NEVER elect someone who wanted to hold office who did not have sincere patriotic feelings for this country. Without a citizenry and elected officials that have such feelings, that nation is doomed because its own citizens have become the enemy and is a required first step in the downfall of their own government.

Even the founders said there comes a time when people should rise up against their own government -and that time is when their government has turned against its own citizens, targeting them for murder, brutality and oppression and the means for rectifying such acts have been taken from the people. Anyone who thinks the US is oppressing and brutalizing its own citizens and therefore should be denied the patriotism of its own citizens and should be destroyed -hasn't done much world traveling and is ignorant about both history and current events.

The US is among the youngest of nations in the world -yet has THE longest-lasting continuous form of government in existence today. Governments collapse when a critical mass of its own population is no longer satisfied with their living conditions under that govenment. Ours is the longest-lasting continuous form of government in the world today BECAUSE its own citizens are far more satisified than the citizens of other countries. They are because they have far greater opportunities and far greater chances to succeed in this country. However individuals choose to define "success" for themselves. And do in a way that isn't true in other countries with forms of government that history has repeatedly proven fail and will fail in the future.

"Poverty" is defined in the global community as a "people suffering inadequate shelter, little to no opportunity for education or healthcare, earnings of less than $2 a day and whose biggest healthcare problem is a significant shortage of calories". Our own definition of "poverty" is totally different for our own citizens than the global definition. Inside this country, it means whoever is on the bottom of the economic ladder in comparison to the wealthiest. Shelter, educational opportunities and healthcare are provided to the poorest of this nation and in fact, independent studies have shown their living conditions today are that of the middle class of 1960. Most of our "poor" own at least one car, own at least 2 TVs and have air conditioning. Their biggest healthcare problem isn't a shortage of calories -but an overabundance of them. Obesity. We can't use the global definition of "poverty" in this country because that scale just doesn't exist for our poorest.

And unlike so many other nations, this nation isn't stingy about sharing freedom. France, for example, is quite stingy about the freedom its own citizens have and places no value on the freedom of any others -at times seems to believe that the freedom of others will somehow work against its own interests. Which is why in the last 70 years, the US has freed more than 50 million people and France has freed exactly ZERO. It is why the US alone feeds nearly a quarter of the world's population -most of which is with no strings attached, while the next closest nation contributes a mere fraction we do. It is a fact that more wars have been averted because of our very existence -than the number of wars we have engaged in. Wars that would have been waged by despots and brutal regimes that weren't. Because we didn't just defeat Germany and Japan but insured their people held the real power in those countries -no nation on earth fears that Germany or Japan will once again wage war in an attempt at conquering the continent -in spite of a long history of repeated attempts.

It is a truism because IT IS TRUE. But free people don't desire to conquer their neighbors -which is why democracies have never declared war on each other and why diplomacy most often succeeds in settling disputes between two free nations and is most likely to fail when a despotic regime is one of the parties. The more nations that are free, the less likely wars will be waged between nations. A good, hard and HONEST look at the nature of the enemy in the wars we have been engaged in during the past 70 years, the more telling it is about OUR nature as a nation and people.

For many, many reasons -this nation is deserving of the patriotic feelings of its own citizens. You believe another nation does it better for its own citizens and does more for the people of other countries at the same time? Go live under it for ten years or so and experience it firsthand before insisting it must be inflicted on us all.

 

[Shogun]

Not surprising. You rarely restrict yourself to the generally accepted definitions of things so why would you this time around?

GENERALLY ACCEPTED?

according to whome? can you show me evidence that patriotism = sinful pride outside of your down syndrome opinion?

Wearing your I <3 Shogun t shirt doesn't count.

 

[Ravi]

Main Entry:
pa·tri·ot·ism Listen to the pronunciation of patriotism
Pronunciation:
\&#712;p&#257;-tr&#275;-&#601;-&#716;ti-z&#601;m, chiefly British &#712;pa-\
Function:
noun
Date:
circa 1726

: love for or devotion to one's country


If he loves his wife and devoted to her, is that also a sin of pride?

 

[Shogun]

no no no no no... that's not the WIDELY ACCEPTED definition!


Manifold says so!


He knows, too.


I mean, it's not clear that he knew what kind of retarded hokeyness he was posting when issuing a disclaimer in the first post or anything. And, sure as lenny loved his mousey you KNOW ole mani has some evidence beyond lighting another candle at his Alter to Shogun...


Come on, Mani... show us your evidence..

 

[manifold]

For the deductively challenged (that shall go unnamed):

Patriotism is love for one's country. One's country is an extention of one's self. Love for oneself is pride. While they're not synonymous, patriotism can very reasonably be categorized as a specific form of pride.

 

[frazzledgear]

I know it sounds a bit silly at first, but think about it. Patriotism falls under the umbrella of pride and pride is one of the seven deadly sins. If I were a flag-waving fundie, how would I go about reconciling this conflict between my love for my country and my love for my savior?

Only in your world would patriotism be defined as "pride". You err in that false definition and I suspect you have chosen to redefine the word "patriotism" for your own agenda. But it is still a false definition.

Patriotism is defined in dictionaries as "devoted love, support and defense of one's country, national loyalty" and sometimes defined as merely "love of one's country". So where is the word "pride" in that definition? Just because you want to insist it includes pride, doesn't mean everyone else now must agree to your re-written definition. I am a patriot -I love, support and defend my nation, my national loyalty lies with this country and no other.

Pride is defined as "an inordinate opinion of one's own dignity, importance, merit or superiority". Must be why the word "pride" isn't included as part of the definition of "patriotism". They are not one and the same thing.

Everyone will be held accountable for their own personal sins, not the sins of others -and for many people that may or may not include some "flag-waving fundies" -pride may well be among those sins. But they are not held accountable for a love and support of their own nation because that is no sin at all.

 

[Shogun]

For the deductively challenged (that shall go unnamed):

Patriotism is love for one's country. One's country is an extention of one's self. Love for oneself is pride. While they're not synonymous, patriotism can very reasonably be categorized as a specific form of pride.

.



LAME.


come on, dude.. if it's so WIDELY known then SURELY you can provide some evidence beyond your own distorted opinion, eh?





damn, dude... I'm just taking my monster truck self on over your line of pintos and dusters, arent I?