- Nov 16, 2015
- Reaction score
Not true in the least. I presented scientists from across the globe all sharing their thoughts and opinions at various phases in this thing and they've been remarkably consistent in what was likely if it broke containment, which it did, and if it was as stealthy and transmittable as they feared, and it is.1. You never presented anything, except for your last link of an epidemiologist agreeing with you assertion that it was IMPOSSIBLE TO STOP IT OR CONTAIN IT. So we have one epidemiologist that agrees with what YOU said. Nice.1. As I clearly demonstrated in the last post, you twisted the words of the people you site who are in the minority with their views.Sorry, but you said it was IMPOSSIBLE to STOP and that it was inevitable.You stated that it was impossible to stop and inevitable to spread everywhere. But that is not what they said. They said the following:I knew this would be the case. Not even your own source makes the same claim that you do. Notice NO one said it was inevitable and impossible to contain or stop. It also does not represent the opinion of all or even a majority of epidemiologist.It isnt AN epidemiologist, singular. This was all over the place.Sure.What facts? I don't see ANY facts in what you stated above. I do see a lot of unfounded opinions based seemingly on utter naked bias.I'm not ignoring your dubious claim that all epidemiologist said that it was impossible to contain or stop the coronavirus. I've countered that multiple times with the examples of JAPAN and TAIWAN! If what your unidentified by alleged epidemiologist were right, how did JAPAN and TAIWAN contain this when they were not supposed to be able to do it.I'm trying to get your attention about JAPAN and TAIWAN, but you pretend they don't exist because the facts from there don't fit the narrative your pushing.As Truman said, the BUCK STOPS HERE! Trump's had nearly four years. Americans don't like this situation. Trump will be let go.If China is cooking its numbers where is your PROOF!China is cooking its numbers.Ok, what about China, Japan and Taiwan. Its already contained in those countries. New reports today say that Italy will have contained the virus by June 1. You can speculate all you want to about the real figure for infections, but you'll never know. But it is a fact that we have what we would call containment in China, Japan and Taiwan.Epidemiologists have been saying since January this wouldn't be contained due to its symptomology. We likely had dozens, if not hundreds, of cases here before we knew it and this was over before it really began. At the time we had only 5 cases here and yet epidemiologists knew this was going to blow up on a global level.
Blame Trump all day and twice on Sundays if it makes you happy. The facts are that this was not going to be stopped, and scientists knew it once they knew what they were dealing with.
What we're dealing with now is exactly what they said was going to happen and the measures in place are there only to try to keep the hospital systems from being swamped, not to 'stop this' or anything else.
You cannot stop it, you can only slow it and it's been that way since Minute 1. It's math, it's always been math and the math is proving itself out.
Trump FAILED and Japan shows that. Had Trump shut the borders and international travel back in January, we would be enjoying the same situation that Taiwan and Japan have been. That's a FACT! The theory that the Pathogen can't be stopped gets has plenty of holes in it as China, Taiwan and Japan demonstrate. IT WAS NEVER A FACT!
Again, China, Japan and Taiwan. Let the facts from those country's sink in.
China, Japan and Taiwan have stopped it. Look at the figures and look at the math.
The cockup with the testing here cost us weeks and that isn't on Trump, as much as everyone would like to make it so.
All countries will peak and fall off, including ours. Epidemiologists are now saying that here this will happen Mid to late April here, with outbreaks flaring here and there thereafter as people pop out of their hidey-holes and the virus does what it does. And that's going to happen with full awareness everywhere. You cannot stop this. Period.
The point stands, and that point is that epidemiologists in this country called this a mile out based on the symptomology and they have been dead nuts on the screws.
Blame Trump. Honestly, I don't care. The facts don't jibe with that version of events. He hasn't been perfect but you don't overcome math in a situation such as this.
WHAT ABOUT JAPAN?
WHAT ABOUT TAIWAN?
The United States could be TAIWAN or JAPAN, but Trump failed to take the same actions as those countries did back in January!
The average Epidemiologist have never said you cannot contain or stop this.
Bill Gates has done more work than most people on these types of diseases and he says 6 to 10 weeks to break this. Then there is the risk of 2nd and 3rd waves, but that those are not for certain. It may be possible to contain any new outbreaks over the next couple of years.
Then there is the development of the Vaccine. But most epidemiologists believe coronavirus will be contained and burned out by the time the Vaccine is ready.
There's proof all over the web about China, FFS. They aren't reporting asymptomatic cases that test positive. That you don't know this boggles my mind.
And what about France, or Spain, or the UK or on and on and on. This is a global pandemic. Did Trump cause failure in Europe as well I wonder.
We should be this, we should be that. The cockup with the testing cost us, which everyone knows and, again, that isn't on Trump. All the Monday morning quarterbacking in the world doesn't change a thing on that whole thing.
And, again, as you seem to have a problem grasping the simple fact that this isn't my opinion but the opinion of epidemiologists, the people that actually know did know and called exactly what was going to happen here.
As for China, you can't hide the results of what this virus does, because growth in infections and deaths from it is exponential. So unless you can show some unexplained outbreak of death in any part of China right now, you GOT NOTHING!
France, Spain and the UK failed. We want the U.S. President to DO what is needed to be done to protect the population. Its what TAIWAN and JAPAN did. Its what TRUMP could have done and should have done, but FAILED to do.
Trump has had 3 years to make defending the country from a pandemic a priority as well as ensuring that we had the best testing capabilities in the world. But he FAILED to do that. He thought it was more important to give the richest 10% Trillions of dollars in tax cuts. That money could have been used to prepare and prevent this disaster from happening!
Sorry, but your twisting or fabricating what epidemiologist have said. Most epidemiologist believe these disasters can be prevented and if they are not, they can eventually be contained.
LOOK AT TAIWAN AND JAPAN! Yep, no answer for that. Cold hard facts.
lol. you are simply ranting at this point. But hey, enjoy yourself.
I showed you a source and you discounted it. No facts are enough to overcome your personal viewpoints. I'm glad we established that.
And there are also reports of state media taking down reports of shipments in and out of crematoriums of urns by the thousands. I could link those also, but you've shown facts don't actually matter, so I'm not going to bother. Look it up if you actually care about the truth of what is happening there.
A media controlled completely by the state which has been lying about this from the jump and you are still giving the state the benefit of the doubt that what is being released is the truth, despite their previous lies and despite facts presented to the contrary. Aside from the fact that doing so supports your narrative, I honestly can't imagine why.
You showed a link about asymptomatic infections which is irrelevant to the point I was making.
Even if the crematoriums and urns are really evidence of a higher PAST DEATH COUNT, it does not change my point that China has contained this. The true death count from January-March and the reports of not counting asymptomatic people are not relevant to whether China has contained or defeated this wave of the virus as of TODAY!
China will start to open in up and April. I guess they will soon be dying by the thousands by the end of April based on your predictions. I don't think the Chinese government would plan to open things up if it would only release a massive wave of the virus again. But according to you, its GOING TO HAPPEN! You've labeled that a FACT. We're going to see if it is.
No, I spoke to that already. Several times. We botched the testing. Get it? It cost us weeks. So we're not Japan or Taiwan or any other case you'd like to cherry-pick to support your argument.
and you are still ignoring the plain and simple over-riding fact that epidemiologists took the position very, very early on, that this wasn't going to be stopped when there were 5, FIVE cases in the United States.
why are you ignoring that? hmmmm?
And I know you'll ignore it again, but as it's been my point all along, and going back a month or more when I first said it on this board, people that knew what they were talking about called this months ago.
You want to blame Trump, go ahead. Those people understood how it spread. They understood the stealthy symptomology and what that meant in a society such as ours, which is highly mobile both here and internationally. They knew there were more cases here than we knew running hither and yon and infecting people to set up a geometric explosion as sure as the sun rises in the east. Those people knew that this was not going to be controlled. They were 100% correct.
Sorry this ruins your Trump is to blame party, but it is what it is. The facts have been there all along and they haven't changed one bit.
We can slow it, and we surely have with social distancing and all the rest. Stop it? Not a chance and there likely never was for us, given that China lied their asses off and there were likely tens if not hundreds of cases running around in the US not being reported for a month or more before anyone even knew this was an issue. And, again, that's what people that know what they're talking about have said, not some opinion I'm just pulling out of my ass, and it makes perfect sense if one bothers to stop and think about it logically for all of 30 seconds.
JAPAN and TAIWAN are simply examples of sound government and health policy with regards to defending their populations from a dangerous PATHOGEN.
LETS CRUNCH THE NUMBERS just to show how wrong your alleged esteemed epidemiologist were wrong on this one:
Yes, Japan is a smaller country, but not that much smaller. Their population size is 38% of the United States. So if you want to adjust for population, just multiply Japan's figures by 3. Even when you do that, your still light years away from the U.S. figures.
For Taiwan, you'll have to multiply their figures by 14 to adjust for the population difference. Still, light years away from the U.S. figures.
More people are dying and being infected in the United States EVERY SIX hours than Taiwan or Japan have had infections or deaths during this whole pandemic to date!
JAPAN and TAIWAN disprove any claim made by any epidemiologist that this virus could not be contained or stopped. JAPAN and TAIWAN had far more exposure to China than the United States and less time to react.
If there were any epidemiologist who said the virus could not be stopped or contained, they got egg about 6 inches thick on their faces.
I know the reason you're in your in love with such an alleged claim, that the virus is unstoppable. You think it somehow gets Trump off the hook for this disaster. JAPAN and TAIWAN stand as beacons to show that is far from being true.
No, I'm not in love with the claim. It is what it is and, again, I made this same statement a more than a month ago based on these same statements by epidemiologists, and long before we were looking at what we're looking at now, so that argument that I'm trying to do this or that for the sake of Trump is nonsense. I've criticized the guy and his mouth plenty here, but he isn't to blame for this anywhere close to any such a level as some would like.
Nothing 'dubious' about it either. If you gave half us much effort to educating yourself about this as you did trying to create comparisons between this or that situation which are cherry-picked examples, at best, and spouting utterly unfounded opinions based seemingly on utter naked bias, simple common sense would likely show you that it has spread as far and as fast around the world for other reasons than Trump, which in itself shoots most of your 'argument' into the crapper and, digging further, that everything I've said here is well supported by experts within the medical community.
Again, blame away. The facts don't support your position, but thats ok with me....
Tell you what, why don't you and your "epidemiologist "explain these FACTS below:
Given JAPAN's and TAIWAN's much greater exposure to China, why are their levels of infections and deaths so much less than that of the United States? Could it be something their governments did which Donald Trump FAILED to do? Clearly, that is the case.
They aren't my opinions, which I've stated repeatedly, FFS. Sorry they crap on your orangemanbad theory, which is based on nothing and flies in the face of what experts have been saying for months but oh well, too bad.
Your clinging to a couple of cherry picked examples while this is running rampant across the planet and claiming trump should have done some undefined something to change an outcome we're seeing the world over is obtuse at best.
You'll continue to believe it, regardless of what anyone puts in front you, which has been proven already. That is precisely how people stay ignorant and if that's the route you prefer to take, rock on....
Tell you what, why don't you and your "epidemiologist "explain these FACTS below:
There are only a few countries that are worse than the United States in terms of per-capita infections and deaths. Sadly, everyday the United States gets closer to the top of the list when it comes to per capita infections and per capita deaths.
But were all supposed to believe that Trump did nothing wrong and that this was all inevitable. Please, name all the epidemiologist who believe that! Name them all please.
The fact is, Trump could have closed the country's borders and shut down international travel back in January. But he didn't. Its a fact that you need to act fast in a pandemic. Trump was late with getting serious about coronavirus, hence the mess that the country is in.
Here ya go. Read and learn something or stay blind. There's plenty more where this came from, but I already know which way you'll go.....
“The more we learn about it, the greater the possibility is that transmission will not be able to be controlled with public health measures,” an expert said.www.statnews.com
Containing new coronavirus may not be feasible, experts say, as they warn of possible sustained global spread
By HELEN BRANSWELL @HelenBranswell
JANUARY 26, 2020
"Some infectious disease experts are warning that it may no longer be feasible to contain the new coronavirus circulating in China. Failure to stop it there could see the virus spread in a sustained way around the world and even perhaps join the ranks of respiratory viruses that regularly infect people.
“The more we learn about it, the greater the possibility is that transmission will not be able to be controlled with public health measures,” said Dr. Allison McGeer, a Toronto-based infectious disease specialist who contracted SARS in 2003 and who helped Saudi Arabia control several hospital-based outbreaks of MERS........."
......."Despite the enormous and admirable efforts in China and around the world, we need to plan for the possibility containment of this epidemic isn’t possible,” said Neil Ferguson, an infectious diseases epidemiology at Imperial College London who has issued a series of modeling studies on the outbreak."
On one side we have you and your frothy opinions. On the other are numerous experts that have dealt with previous outbreaks and actually have a clue.
B-b-b-but Trump! That position is ridiculous in the face of all of this- and that's all you've got. The End.
This is the key sentence. Noticed the highlighted words:
"SOME infectious disease experts are warning that it MAY NO LONGER BE FEASIBLE to contain the new coronavirus circulating in China.
JAPAN and TAIWAN have proven this theory to be false. Only a few epidemiologist claimed this and they were not 100% certain that it could not be contained. So you have a few epidemiologist who expressed concern about whether it could be contained. That's very different from what you have been harping about for several pages now.
Obviously, it would be beneficial to Trump politically if there was "nothing you could have done", but its obvious now that is 100% FALSE! There is no reason the United States should be in its current position today, when TAIWAN and JAPAN, two countries more exposed to China than the United States, have controlled and contained the cases in their countries.
Donald Trump failed to prepare the United States over the last three years for a potential pandemic. He disbanded the part of the National Security Council that was responsible for helping to prepare the country for such a pandemic back in 2018. He cut funding to the CDC. Instead of improving the United States ability to respond to a crises like this, he spent the past three years weakening the United States ability to respond to a crises like this. Then when it broke in January, he failed to close the U.S. borders and stop international travel. Had he closed borders and stopped international travel like JAPAN and TAIWAN did in January, the United States would have numbers similar to both JAPAN and TAIWAN. The United States would not be in the middle of a crises having to receive donated mask and supplies from other countries.
Ironically, Trump may retain a lot of his supporters as the areas least effected by this crises are counties in the more rural areas which always tend to vote Republican over the past several decades. But if any of these voters are objective and care about what is happening in New York City, they will realize Trump failed and should be removed from office this year.
Wrong, again. They clearly stated this would likely be the case if it broke containment in China, which it did and already had. In other words they predicted exactly this. Could they speak to a future certainty with 100% certainty, of course not, FFS. Scientists would never do that. They couldn't do it now, they won't be able to do it at any point in the future. All they can do is offer best guess, which is exactly what they did.
And again, if you bothered to take 2 seconds to educate yourself instead of willfully ignoring things you are looking directly at and bothered to search for other similar opinions from that time period, you would find others saying the exact same things.
I knew you would respond with some BS like this despite any facts to the contrary. Facts don't matter one iota to you. If you'd bothered to read the rest of the article instead of jumping to criticize it you might find that it supports that these people predicted it would spread globally. They actually go further than that and predict that this may become endemic, ie, this will NEVER get stamped out but will become a regularly circulating disease, similar to the flu. B-B-But Trump should stop the flu!
But no, that doesn't suit your purpose so you grab something you think discounts the point, although it actually doesn't and go right back to Trump did it! Japan, Taiwain! Trump did it!
LOL. it's pathetic at this point.
"SOME infectious disease experts are warning that it MAY NO LONGER BE FEASIBLE to contain the new coronavirus circulating in China."
Also, this is just a FEW of them that said this. Not a majority, or even a significant minority.
THE SUCCESS OF PREVENTION AND CONTAINMENT IN TAIWAN AND JAPAN IS IRREFUTABLE! Its a FACT. Even the scientist you site are not saying what your claiming and there is just a few of them.
What do you not understand about this
"Containing new coronavirus may not be feasible, experts say"
“The more we learn about it, the greater the possibility is that transmission will not be able to be controlled with public health measures,” said Dr. Allison McGeer, a Toronto-based infectious disease specialist who contracted SARS in 2003 and who helped Saudi Arabia control several hospital-based outbreaks of MERS.
If that’s the case, she said, “we’re living with a new human virus, and we’re going to find out if it will spread around the globe.” McGeer cautioned that because the true severity of the outbreak isn’t yet known, it’s impossible to predict what the impact of that spread would be, though she noted it would likely pose significant challenges to health care facilities."
Not feasible, not able to be controlled" "A new human virus":, get it?
here's more, although I know nothing will make it past your Orangemanbad filter
About a week after that first article
Experts see two scenarios: 2019-nCoV becomes like the four little-known coronaviruses already endemic in people, or it becomes like the seasonal flu.www.statnews.com
“Independent self-sustaining outbreaks [of 2019-nCoV] in major cities globally could become inevitable because of substantial exportation of pre-symptomatic cases,” scientists at the University of Hong Kong concluded in a paper published in The Lancet last week. "
In-ev-it-a-ble. Understand what that means?
substantial exportation of pre-symptomatic cases, ie, it was already here.
You're being willfully obtuse at this point. Presented facts and now apparently can't read, process information or perform some simple searches on your own to improve your own understanding of something that is shaping our world.
But hey, have fun in Taiwan! LOL.
1. There is a difference between saying ITS NOT FEASIBLE TO STOP THIS and MAY NOT BE FEASIBLE TO STOP THIS.
Unfortunately, you don't understand the difference.
2. Its only a FEW epidemiologist who have stated MAY NOT BE FEASIBLE TO STOP THIS.
You've presented it though in past post that ALL EPIDEMIOLOGIST say its NOT FEASIBLE TO STOP THIS.
So you've been 100% wrong on these points.
In the meantime, here are the FACTS:
If it was impossible to stop and inevitable, Japan and Taiwan would not have numbers that are so tiny. The numbers in Japan and Taiwan show just how wrong you were with your extreme statements that not even the people you site would agree with.
I've already pointed out that they gave their best guess while they were only beginning to learn about this new disease. And back then, again, they were predicting what was likely if the thing acted in the way we know now that it does in terms of symptomology and transmission.
Geez, you honestly can't see that. Good grief.
Being honest though, I knew exactly what you'd say, as its the only thing you could say without simply admitting you were wrong in the face of overwhelming evidence. I knew you'd never do that because you've already shown you'll ignore literally anything to keep on with your B-b-but TrumpBad! Taiwan! nonsense. Lol.
But, fine you want to play games with semantics, here's more for you to ignore. More experts, more decisive language. Now at this point in the timeline it's a few weeks later and they have a better grip on how this thing acts and what they're dealing with.
As I said, there is a ton of this out there. The logic is solid, and these people are experts whose opinions are worth more than yours any day of the week.
You aren't arguing with me and never have been. You're arguing with them. And that is flat stupid.
Here’s why the U.S. government’s effort to contain the coronavirus outbreak ‘was never going to be successful’The public may have a false sense of security because of government efforts to contain the illness, which infectious disease experts say were unlikely to...www.marketwatch.com
Here’s why the U.S. government’s effort to contain the coronavirus outbreak ‘was never going to be successful’
Published: Feb. 29, 2020 at 8:15 a.m. ET
“There is a real danger in the public believing they had failed,” Adalja said. “This is a respiratory spread virus with efficient community spread and as such it’s not containable. It is not as if the containment failed, it was never going to be successful.”
is that better language for you? NEVER. Doesnt get more decisive than that.
Keep railing if you want although you're starting to look like someone that claims they're Napolean. "It's true, it's true! It really is!"
You do not have a more valid opinion than these people, who have presented their reasoning and logic and science behind them which you simply ignore, choosing instead to wallow in the ignorance of your own opinion. Sad, actually.
2. Even your new link is an even more MINORITY OPINION on this issue. Most epidemiologist and governments around the world believe this can be contained and defeated and they have enacted policies to do just that.
In the meantime, here are the FACTS:
If every country had acted early like Japan and Taiwan did in January, they would be seeing similar rates of infection and deaths which is contained through testing, contact tracing and isolation of the infected.
When you're wrong, you're wrong, and it does not matter what your education is in or your resume. But in your case its only yourself and a minority of epidemiologist that got this wrong.
JAPAN and TAIWAN have proved that this could be stopped and contained. Every country had the capability to do the same as Japan and Taiwan, but they failed to act early enough.
If there was really nothing you could do as you claim, Japan and Taiwan would have rates of infection and deaths equal to or more than the United States given their greater exposure to China through trade and travel.
Nonsense. Now it's a 'minority' opinion. This is running rampant across the globe. We're in remediation phase at this point, which is what these measures of social distancing etc. are. It broke containment when it got loose from China and that was done before we ever knew there was a problem.
Pointing to 2 examples repeatedly while the vast majority of others are seeing similar problems is myopic at best. But Taiwain, but Japan! Why not But Spain! But France! I could easily have played that juvenile game and said my X examples trumps your 2, but instead I opted to present opinions from people that are far more qualified than you or I.
Let's look at how your logic has evolved, ie, how you've moved the goalposts as it suited your need.
1. You claimed the assertion that epidemiologists were saying this as dubious and wanted facts.
I presented them.
2. You claimed they said that this wasn't certain.
I pointed out that this was because they were dealing with a new and unknown virus and thus were giving best guess.
3. You rejected that based on semantics.
I presented more decisive language further into the timeline when scientists had developed a better idea of what they were dealing with.
4. Now you pull out of thin air, ie, just make it up with no substantiation that this is a minority opinion.
Honestly, at this point, there's no point in discussing jack with you, as you ignore and simply make up whatever you'd like and move the goalposts as necessary. It's absurd.
Stay ignorant my friend. Good grief.
2. Yep, the few you sited said it wasn't certain despite YOU claiming that they said it was certain.
3. Its not semantics when you claim something is 100% impossible to stop or contain, and the Scientist you site are clearly not saying that.
4. Its a minority opinion because most governments and departments involved with public health around the world have said this can be stopped and contained and are actively following a strategy to stop and contain the spread of the virus, WHICH YOU SAID CAN'T BE STOPPED OR CONTAINED! Oh, and siting one person who agrees with you clearly shows this is a minority opinion unless you believe that person is the worlds only epidemiologist.
How about informing yourself of some facts. Look at the latest figures from the United States, Japan and Taiwan on infections and deaths.
Every day that the disparity between the United States and Taiwan/Japan grows with infections/deaths, the deeper in the hole you get with your claim that this could not be stopped or contained.
In the meantime, here are the FACTS:
You have B-b-but Trump!
It's all you've got and it's all you've presented.
I could present many, many more examples, but it's pointless. You don't see what you don't want to see and will adjust your requirements as necessary and flat out make stuff up as you see fit.
Have fun in Tokyo. Their cases are up today, BTW, so make sure you bring your PPE....