Historically, when has a sanction worked?

[martybegan]

There was NOTHING to follow through on. You are arguing we should have done the very thing we are condemning Putin for doing. It is NOT our place to run other countries.

We don't run other countries, we give them back to the people living there.

 

[martybegan]

Nothing isolationist about setting a very high bar for risking blood and treasure

So are Poland and the Baltic States, members of NATO above that bar?

 

[pknopp]

We built them up. We turned German militarists into Bankers and Japanese militarists into Car and tech manufacturers.

No, they decided to do that. You can NOT do that for other people. Germany and Japan both decided to change internally.

We made South Korea a 1st world country and a Military power.

Iraq was on life support because we didn't finish the job in the first gulf war.

Take them over and install our government? Do you not see your hypocrisy and irony here?

 

[pknopp]

We don't run other countries, we give them back to the people living there.

What happened in both Iraq and Afghanistan when we "gave the people their country back"?

 

[martybegan]

No, they decided to do that. You can NOT do that for other people. Germany and Japan both decided to change internally.



Take them over and install our government? Do you not see your hypocrisy and irony here?

No, I don't. We have a history of letting people decide what to do after we are done beating the snot out of them.

 

[martybegan]

What happened in both Iraq and Afghanistan when we "gave the people their country back"?

It is what it is. You expect perfect movie/TV solutions to complex problems.

 

[pknopp]

No, I don't. We have a history of letting people decide what to do after we are done beating the snot out of them.

We had to simply give up in both cases.

 

[pknopp]

It is what it is. You expect perfect movie/TV solutions to complex problems.

I expect us to not continue to make the same mistakes over and over.

 

[martybegan]

We had to simply give up in both cases.

We had to give up because we fucked up the process of getting them to a point where the people who wanted a more free government could be as strong as the people who wanted a more controlling government.

 

[martybegan]

I expect us to not continue to make the same mistakes over and over.

Actually these are all new mistakes. Each one is based on a different situation.

 

[Circe]

I don’t think that would stop him Putin has pretty much committed himself to this path. Sadly until he faces serious military opposition I don’t think he stops till he decides he wants to.

The question of the thread was whether sanctions ever have worked. I've started reading some books about sanctions, into the first one --- no. Not yet. Sanctions are quite recent, the brainchild of the League of Nations organizers, which disbanded in the late 1930s after rather dramatically failing to prevent the dominoes falling with sanctions or any other way. They put heavy sanctions on Italy, which went right ahead and conquered Ethiopia anyway. The sanctions DID have an economic effect because Italy was such a basketcase anyway, but they recovered in a few years time to be gravely defeated in their aggressive war against Greece early in WWII. Germany had to pull Italy out of trouble, as it had to throughout the war ---- what an ally to have!

Sanctions were developed out of blockades (military) and boycotts (civil). Blockades definitely work: against the South in the Civil War, against Germany in both WWI and WWII. They don't stop bad behavior but they sure help defeat the enemy. The idea was to do it soft, without ships, by some neutral body like the United Nations. THAT sure didn't work. We have thrown everything we have including exclusion from the SWIFT crossborder banking system against both North Korea and Iran, but they are still making and selling and testing nukes and promoting terrorism as fast as ever.

Sanctions do no good to stop aggressive behavior by other countries. At least they never have so far. As we see with the invasion of Ukraine. Why should Putin care? It's not war against him, so it doesn't matter.

Only war matters.

 

[pknopp]

We had to give up because we fucked up the process of getting them to a point where the people who wanted a more free government could be as strong as the people who wanted a more controlling government.

They weren't interested. We lied.

 

[martybegan]

They weren't interested. We lied.

What lie?

 

[pknopp]

What lie?

All of it. You know what I am saying.

 

[martybegan]

All of it. You know what I am saying.

No, be specific. For you to call something a lie, you have to spell it out.

 

[pknopp]

No, be specific. For you to call something a lie, you have to spell it out.

I already have.

 

[martybegan]

I already have.

and then you made a blanket comment without referencing anything specific.

I respond to specific statements, not re-references from 20 posts ago.

 

[Circe]

We don't run other countries, we give them back to the people living there.

!! No, we don't, we make huge bases we call "the U.S. Embassy" and try to run the country from there with puppet emirs. For 15 or 20 years before we give up and flee overnight, like all the famous British evacuations: the last one in Afghanistan was a lot like the British evacuation of Greece in WWII, silent, at night! I remember a Brit decades ago told me his favorite quote from their 1800s war in Afghanistan ---- "they always kill the emirs." Yeah, our last puppet fled the country as fast as he could get out when the Taliban neared Kabul. We don't give them back the country, we LOSE.

We don't even fight a real war, just colonize for our own security, which doesn't work, with a shock and awe invasion and then pretending to be their newest bestest wittle friendsies. Which no one at all believes, of course. Though some people in-country try to get money and a Green Card out of it.

I understand why we don't fight a real war --- because it looks bad to be constantly defeating smaller countries and that's what Hitler did and the world gangs up on countries like that. Japan also comes to mind. We used to be big and strong (no more, obviously) but no country can stand against a world united against us. So we do these useless "humanitarian" wars with lies aplenty, and they don't work either.

I think the whole pattern just ran out; new situation coming.

 

[pknopp]

and then you made a blanket comment without referencing anything specific.

I respond to specific statements, not re-references from 20 posts ago.

I have no desire to repeat myself over and over. If you can't remember the conversation from 20 posts back, well........that's on you.

 

[Circe]

So are Poland and the Baltic States, members of NATO above that bar?

No fighting for Poland and the Baltic if Europe cannot be bothered. Use the WW model, which worked for us: wait till the bitter end, then swoop in like Tolkien's Eagles (he was British and the Eagles definitely stand for Americans in both world wars) and snatch the allies out of the fires surrounding them. He used that image twice, one for each war.