Hello form Turkey

[ekrem]

This must be Greek/Turkey history 101...I think you and OCA should sit down over a beer or Coffee on the Island of Cyprus...ya both would probably get along if y'all stopped blaming each other for the "Ottoman Empire" and what happened back about 1934...I am more concerned with the revised edition of the "New Ottoman Empire" circa 2005 fwd!

what do you mean with "New Ottoman empire" ?

 

[USViking]

USViking...
But Barzani from North-Iraq claims that Turkish City Diyarbakir has to be Capitol from an independent so-called Kurdistan...

Look youself where this city lies...
And remeber this:

In Turkish Constitution it says: Turkey is an undividable country with its Population and its Borders...

I understand your aversion to the idea of losing
territory controlled by your people for so long.

Remember though, that in the last 50-60 years
three huge Western empires- the UK, France,
and Russia gave up territory vasltly larger than
Kurd-majority Turkey, and that the dissloution
of the UK and USSR empires was almost completely peaceful.


As I said earlier, if the Turkish Kurds do not wish
to secede, they should not be required to, and
the Kurds who reside elsewhere will never be able
to force them to.

 

[ekrem]

I understand your aversion to the idea of losing
territory controlled by your people for so long.

Remember though, that in the last 50-60 years
three huge Western empires- the UK, France,
and Russia gave up territory vasltly larger than
Kurd-majority Turkey, and that the dissloution
of the UK and USSR empires was almost completely peaceful.


As I said earlier, if the Turkish Kurds do not wish
to secede, they should not be required to, and
the Kurds who reside elsewhere will never be able
to force them to.

Yes, you take it easy... Let me say it a bit otherwise:
Nobody will get the land, where my Grandmothers and Grandfathers are burried...

You are right, when you say: Kurds who reside elsewhere will never be able
to force them to.

But what, if those other resided Kurds do not give up influencing Turkish citizens?

Then our constitution gives the answer: Turkish Republic is undevidable with its People and its Borders.
This is not a PC-Game or something.

Barzani in North-Iraq has established a political Party in Turkey... He is allowed so, because we are democracy.



Now, Imagine this scenario:
Canadian Government establishing political Party in USA with the goal to split USA.
What would Bush do?

 

[archangel]

what do you mean with "New Ottoman empire" ?

The continued expansion of Islam throughout the world using any means necessary...for starters!

 

[Said1]

Now, Imagine this scenario:
Canadian Government establishing political Party in USA with the goal to split USA.
What would Bush do?

LMAOL!! I think you have that in the wrong order. Either way, not a good example. Look at the PQ in Quebec and how the feds have delt with them, they never shut up and will probably go nowhere on their own.

 

[Said1]

The continued expansion of Islam throughout the world using any means necessary...for starters!

What does that have to do with the Turkish government?

 

[ekrem]

LMAOL!! I think you have that in the wrong order. Either way, not a good example. Look at the PQ in Quebec and how the feds have delt with them, they never shut up and will probably go nowhere on their own.

OK, you are right, I am sorry... this was not a godd example...

HMMM, but this exam,ple is better:

Scenario:

America has lots of hispanics...
Mexico Government establishing political Party in USA with the goal to split USA and that Hispanics in USA join Mexico...

 

[archangel]

What does that have to do with the Turkish government?

I think he can answer my question just fine...I was in a comment exchange with him!

 

[USViking]

Yes, you take it easy... Let me say it a bit otherwise:
Nobody will get the land, where my Grandmothers and Grandfathers are burried...

You are right, when you say: Kurds who reside elsewhere will never be able
to force them to.

But what, if those other resided Kurds do not give up influencing Turkish citizens?

Then our constitution gives the answer: Turkish Republic is undevidable with its People and its Borders.
This is not a PC-Game or something.

Barzani in North-Iraq has established a political Party in Turkey... He is allowed so, because we are democracy.



Now, Imagine this scenario:
Canadian Government establishing political Party in USA with the goal to split USA.
What would Bush do?

Any such scenario would of course embitter relations
between the governments in question.

Whatever separation occurs should done without
foreign influence to the greatest possible extent,
as it was done in cases I mentioned in an earlier post.

 

[Said1]

OK, you are right, I am sorry... this was not a godd example...

HMMM, but this exam,ple is better:

Scenario:

America has lots of hispanics...
Mexico Government establishing political Party in USA with the goal to split USA and that Hispanics in USA join Mexico...

I wasn't making fun of you. I'm Canadian, and the thought of our government doing that made me laugh. No offense intended.

I brought of the Party Quebecois, because that is exactly what they would like to do - seperate from the rest of Canada in order to become a nation-state (the province of Quebec that is) . In answer to your question, I would think the USG would handle something such as that better than our government, especially since Mexico is already a nation and seriously doubt the movement would get off the ground considering the source of the movement is actually stemming from the state of Mexico. In other words, I don't think it would be in the Mexican governments best interest to be playing games of that nature.

 

[Said1]

I think he can answer my question just fine...I was in a comment exchange with him!

Whatever.

 

[USViking]

The continued expansion of Islam throughout the world using any means necessary...for starters!

I'll answer for canavar here.

The Turkish government is not and has not been
Ialmic since the end of WW1, and let us hope it
stays that way. I believe it evens forbids the use
of veils.

Nor has it been expansionist, although having
contracted to its present borders in 1918 it
has clung tenaciously to the remainder, to the
sorrow of minority groups within.

 

[archangel]

I'll answer for canavar here.

The Turkish government is not and has not been
Ialmic since the end of WW1, and let us hope it
stays that way. I believe it evens forbids the use
of veils.

Nor has it been expansionist, although having
contracted to its present borders in 1918 it
has clung tenaciously to the remainder, to the
sorrow of minority groups within.

said1 for your opinion...I would still like to hear cav's if ya don't mind!

 

[ekrem]

I think he can answer my question just fine...I was in a comment exchange with him!

Archangel, in my opinion middle east arabs will never become real western-style democracies...
By them much has to do with tribal things and so on... Not everything what they do is build up-on religion...

Look, there are free arab-nations like Jordan, Kuwait, Tunisia....
But they are in the minority. And nothing shows in that direction the middle east will take these states as models... Furthermore, thinking that arabs become a model like Turkey is very ridicoulos...

This form of democracy which would suite best for arabs is not invented up-to-now...

We all will have to draw our effords to this case. This question will influence us much because there are living maaaaaaaaaaaaaany People... And in addition to that, most countries are Oil-rich but their education, population is 3rd World...

And one thing i have to critizize: US Governments backing those Dictators, like the Saudis... They interpret Islam very fanatic like those fanatic Iranians...
Saudis have very much money... They invest all over the world to influence young muslims to live Islam like Saudis interpret... And this Saudi Interpretation (Wahabits) is very dangerous.
The Saudis are a big problem in the Middle East to solve this Question...
They are not little kids, they have mooooooooooooooney, their money is everywhere...


The same thing with IRAN... They are as fanatic as the Saudis...
But in case of Iran it has the addition, IRAN is military big... They have Rockets which can hit Turkey and ISRAEl... And now with this Atomic-program they become a danger for everyone in the Middle East and Europe.


Finishing those IRANian Mullahs in Teheran will not finish the Job. The world has to deal with Saudi-Arabia too. But Saudi-Arabia is seen as friend in America because of $$$$$$+ OIL

 

[Said1]

said1 for your opinion...I would still like to hear cav's if ya don't mind!

It's not my opinion, although I don't disagree or think Cav will say anything different. Plus, I asked YOU a question pertaining to why you think what you do, which is different from what you asked Cav in the first place.

 

[USViking]

said1 for your opinion...I would still like to hear cav's if ya don't mind!

I saw the exchange.

I don't mind, but it looks like he is taking on
the rest of the forum alone, and sometimes
I pitch in for underdogs even if we have areas
of disagreement.

It does concern me that an Islamic political party
has become I think the most popular in the country,
although I know nothing about its platform other
than that it does not appear to be radical.

Perhaps canavar can comment on that when he
has a chance.

 

[archangel]

Archangel, in my opinion middle east arabs will never become real western-style democracies...
By them much has to do with tribal things and so on... Not everything what they do is build up-on religion...

Look, there are free arab-nations like Jordan, Kuwait, Tunisia....
But they are in the minority. And nothing shows in that direction the middle east will take these states as models... Furthermore, thinking that arabs become a model like Turkey is very ridicoulos...

This form of democracy which would suite best for arabs is not invented up-to-now...


for your opinion...that is why I worded it as I did...and I agree with your assesment on Saudi Arbia and Iran...two different cultures with the same goal!

We all will have to draw our effords to this case. This question will influence us much because there are living maaaaaaaaaaaaaany People... And in addition to that, most countries are Oil-rich but their education, population is 3rd World...

And one thing i have to critizize: US Governments backing those Dictators, like the Saudis... They interpret Islam very fanatic like those fanatic Iranians...
Saudis have very much money... They invest all over the world to influence young muslims to live Islam like Saudis interpret... And this Saudi Interpretation (Wahabits) is very dangerous.
The Saudis are a big problem in the Middle East to solve this Question...
They are not little kids, they have mooooooooooooooney, their money is everywhere...


The same thing with IRAN... They are as fanatic as the Saudis...
But in case of Iran it has the addition, IRAN is military big... They have Rockets which can hit Turkey and ISRAEl... And now with this Atomic-program they become a danger for everyone in the Middle East and Europe.


Finishing those IRANian Mullahs in Teheran will not finish the Job. The world has to deal with Saudi-Arabia too. But Saudi-Arabia is seen as friend, also in America because of $$$$$$+ OIL

very much for your opinion...that is why I worded it as I did..and I agree with your assement of Saudi Arabia and Iran....two different cultures with the same goal!

 

[archangel]

It's not my opinion, although I don't disagree or think Cav will say anything different. Plus, I asked YOU a question pertaining to why you think what you do, which is different from what you asked Cav in the first place.

Whatever..........I received a comprehensive answer from cav...I was waiting for his answer which I received!

 

[Said1]

Archangel, in my opinion middle east arabs will never become real western-style democracies...
By them much has to do with tribal things and so on... Not everything what they do is build up-on religion...

Excellent point, but again doesn't the status of your "tribe" go back to Mohammad in the first place? I mean, the closer you can trace your roots to him, the better off you are in many Islamic socieities.

Look, there are free arab-nations like Jordan, Kuwait, Tunisia....
But they are in the minority. And nothing shows in that direction the middle east will take these states as models... Furthermore, thinking that arabs become a model like Turkey is very ridicoulos..



This form of democracy which would suite best for arabs is not invented up-to-now...

Secular governments don't seem too popular, nor do monarchies.

 

[USViking]

Archangel, in my opinion middle east arabs will never become real western-style democracies...
By them much has to do with tribal things and so on... Not everything what they do is build up-on religion...

Look, there are free arab-nations like Jordan, Kuwait, Tunisia....
But they are in the minority. And nothing shows in that direction the middle east will take these states as models... Furthermore, thinking that arabs become a model like Turkey is very ridicoulos...

This form of democracy which would suite best for arabs is not invented up-to-now...

We all will have to draw our effords to this case. This question will influence us much because there are living maaaaaaaaaaaaaany People... And in addition to that, most countries are Oil-rich but their education, population is 3rd World...

And one thing i have to critizize: US Governments backing those Dictators, like the Saudis... They interpret Islam very fanatic like those fanatic Iranians...
Saudis have very much money... They invest all over the world to influence young muslims to live Islam like Saudis interpret... And this Saudi Interpretation (Wahabits) is very dangerous.
The Saudis are a big problem in the Middle East to solve this Question...
They are not little kids, they have mooooooooooooooney, their money is everywhere...


The same thing with IRAN... They are as fanatic as the Saudis...
But in case of Iran it has the addition, IRAN is military big... They have Rockets which can hit Turkey and ISRAEl... And now with this Atomic-program they become a danger for everyone in the Middle East and Europe.


Finishing those IRANian Mullahs in Teheran will not finish the Job. The world has to deal with Saudi-Arabia too. But Saudi-Arabia is seen as friend, also in America because of $$$$$$+ OIL

The West is financing through its oil purchases two
of the most dangerous radical Islamic regimes in the
world in SA and Iran.

It is thereby financing agents within these regimes
whose goal is the ultimate destruction of the West.

It is a crazed wheels-within-wheels situation
where each side needs the other, is hostile to the
other, and is in an unsettled working relationship
with the other.

Fortunately, the West has a technical advantage
which I do not think the radicals can begin to
close the gap on.

In fact, nuclear WMDs or none, I think it most
likely their closed minds will cause them to fall
increasingly behind the West, and that ultimately
this will secure the safety of the West against
whatever evils the radicals seek to spread.