“He has a battle rifle”: Police feared Uvalde gunman’s AR-15

[Lesh]

This is all true. "Shoot, move, communicate".

But, you are still resisting addressing the point I questioned you about.

It doesn't matter what weapon this shooter used. The OP is false. AR15, lever action rifle, bolt action rifle...these guys weren't going in...because there are many pistol rounds that will defeat soft body armor.

5.7x28mm comes to mind, as does 7.62x25mm.

Anybody can search the internet and find a list.

And 9mm skips off of concrete better than 5.56mm.

Just tell the OP that she is wrong.

That these police weren't going in against any armed resistance.

Bureaucracy, fear and indecision locked these officers into an infinite loop of self doubt.

That is WHY soldiers train. You know what to do, you do it.

These officer trained half-assed, thought it would never happen to them, and didn't know what to do when it DID happened.

Complacency is a killer.

Nothing happens, nothing happens, nothing happens, nothing happens, year after year...soon you stop taking the threat seriously, then you stop taking the training seriously. And that's a recipe for disaster.

That's what happened here IMO.

So now you argue that a high level of training is what’s needed on cases like this?

It used to be anyone with a gun .. rent a cops… good guys with guns..

I guess your argument depends on what day of the week it is

 

[Lesh]

The kid had a Semi Auto AR15 that any non prohibited person could buy at Sportsman’a Warehouse .

Which is the problem

 

[Missourian]

So now you argue that a high level of training is what’s needed on cases like this?

It used to be anyone with a gun .. rent a cops… good guys with guns..

I guess your argument depends on what day of the week it is

Listen Stolen Valor...all the teacher had to do to stop this shooting was....


...wait for it...

...close the ******* door.

That's it.

No magic, no good guy with gun.

But!

Had the teacher closed the door and HAD a firearm and a minimal amount of training...SHE could have been the one with the advantage and THE SHOOTER would have been forced to breech a door under fire.

Now **** off, you lying sack of shit.

 

[SavannahMann]

This is all true. "Shoot, move, communicate".

But, you are still resisting addressing the point I questioned you about.

It doesn't matter what weapon this shooter used. The OP is false. AR15, lever action rifle, bolt action rifle...these guys weren't going in...because there are many pistol rounds that will defeat soft body armor.

5.7x28mm comes to mind, as does 7.62x25mm.

Anybody can search the internet and find a list.

And 9mm skips off of concrete better than 5.56mm.

Just tell the OP that she is wrong.

That these police weren't going in against any armed resistance.

Bureaucracy, fear and indecision locked these officers into an infinite loop of self doubt.

That is WHY soldiers train. You know what to do, you do it.

These officer trained half-assed, thought it would never happen to them, and didn't know what to do when it DID happened.

Complacency is a killer.

Nothing happens, nothing happens, nothing happens, nothing happens, year after year...soon you stop taking the threat seriously, then you stop taking the training seriously. And that's a recipe for disaster.

That's what happened here IMO.

I’m probably going to surprise you. But Yes, and No. Let me begin by stipulating this. The posts that are certain to follow that list the technical reasons that the AR is not a Military Rifle are all 100% correct. The AR is not a Military or Battle Rifle. But it is.

Here we have to differentiate between logical and instinctive. Instinctively we believe things even if we know it is false logically. The AR is one example.

In an earlier post I pointed out that the police have no faith in their pistols. This is why they are trained to shoot and keep shooting. But they’re rifles. They have faith in them. Because the rifle is just another in an almost endless series of similar rifles firing the same ammunition? Nope.

They like the AR in their side because the weapon is used by the Military. It is viewed as a serious and reliable weapon. The Army uses it.

They will swear it is just another rifle in public. But you know deep down in their souls, they picked that rifle because it was used by the Military.

Again. Technically speaking it isn’t. The metal in the barrel. The metal in the bolt and carrier group. The semi automatic action instead of either Burst or Fully Automatic.

But you know and I know the weapon is viewed as a war weapon. The recordings of the cops on the day. They knew it was an AR. And they said they couldn’t go in even with the same rifle. They didn’t have a sufficient advantage in their minds.

They were afraid of the AR rifle. Because in their minds it was a badassed weapon. A serious weapon.

And that image, or impression if you like doesn’t really extend to others. The Mini-14 fires the same ammunition but is viewed as a piece of junk by people who swear the AR is not a military weapon.

You mentioned 9MM skipping better than 5.56. Again this is a logical, but not instinctive response. The P-90 is far superior to the MP-5. Yet no one likes the P-90 despite it having equal reliability and superior penetration performance. The reason? It looks like a toy. It looks like some science fiction bullshit. The logic doesn’t apply. The instinctive or emotional response matters.

Perhaps the cops would have charged the door if the Baddie had been armed with a Mini-14. Perhaps they wouldn’t have. What we do know is the AR specifically scared them. I suppose we could sit down and discuss their fears and find out if a Bullpup from Israel firing the same ammunition from the same magazines would have scared them.

Logically is not where fear lives. Fear is from impressions and most of the time we don’t question our impressions or prejudices.

 

[SavannahMann]

Listen Stolen Valor...all the teacher had to do to stop this shooting was....


...wait for it...

...close the ******* door.

That's it.

No magic, no good guy with gun.

But!

Had the teacher closed the door and HAD a firearm and a minimal amount of training...SHE could have been the one with the advantage and THE SHOOTER would have been forced to breech a door under fire.

Now **** off, you lying sack of shit.

I thought everyone knew the lock was broken.

Robb Elementary School knew one of the classroom doors didn't lock properly, but no one ever fixed it, an investigative report found. That door was likely used by the shooter to get into the classroom.

Teacher Arnulfo Reyes told administrators his door lock was broken but they failed to fix it, an investigation found.

www.insider.com

 

[Lesh]

Listen Stolen Valor...all the teacher had to do to stop this shooting was....


...wait for it...

...close the ******* door.

That's it.

No magic, no good guy with gun.

But!

Had the teacher closed the door and HAD a firearm and a minimal amount of training...SHE could have been the one with the advantage and THE SHOOTER would have been forced to breech a door under fire.

Now **** off, you lying sack of shit.

The lock failed asshole.

And shove your “stolen valor” up your fat internet tough guy ass

 

[Failzero]

Which is the problem

How ?

 

[Failzero]

Not that I ever heard.

I guess when all else fails… make shit up

Cops are afraid of a guy closing the distance while they are ordering off the Taco Truck and slitting their throats ftom
Behind too

 

[Lesh]

Cops are afraid of a guy closing the distance while they are ordering off the Taco Truck and slitting their throats ftom
Behind too

Keep talking . You sound dumber with every post

 

[Missourian]

I thought everyone knew the lock was broken.

Robb Elementary School knew one of the classroom doors didn't lock properly, but no one ever fixed it, an investigative report found. That door was likely used by the shooter to get into the classroom.

Teacher Arnulfo Reyes told administrators his door lock was broken but they failed to fix it, an investigation found.

www.insider.com

Thanks, I was refreshing my memory of the incident and read the "official" timeline and it stated the door was propped open at 11:52.

Appreciate the update...but it doesn't really change anything. It was a lapse in security protocol likely a result of the complacency I referenced earlier.

The door was supposed to be locked...and it wasn't.

Also, I'm not ignoring your other post...I'm just cognatin' on it a little while before I respond.

 

[Failzero]

Keep talking . You sound dumber with every post

You sound like AI generated responses being tested up in hea

 

[Missourian]

The lock failed asshole.

And shove your “stolen valor” up your fat internet tough guy ass

It took one question for a real Veteran to out a fake one, Stolen Valor.

You lyin' little shits think you can bluff through with a Google Search.

I had the ever so slight amount of respect for the fact that after you were caught you had enough shame to disappear.

But evidently it was just enough shame to disappear temporarily.

You're despicable.

Now be gone liar.

 

[Failzero]

He

It took one question for a real Veteran to out a fake one, Stolen Valor.

You lyin' little shits think you can bluff through with a Google Search.

I had the ever so slight amount of respect for the fact that after you were caught you had enough shame to disappear.

But evidently it was just enough shame to disappear temporarily.

You're despicable.

Now be gone liar.

he is AI generated Twaddle for sure ( or a Fed Web Warrior on the clock

 

[Lesh]

Times up.

"We are, we are, we are, we are the Army Engineers,
We can, we can, we can, we can demolish 40 beers!"

It's the Army Engineers Song...one of, if not the most popular Engineer songs / cadences for Basic and AIT soldiers.

There is not an Army Engineer who doesn't know it.

The Engineer Song - Army Education Benefits Blog

Chorus:We are, we are, we are, we are, we are the Engineers.We can, we can, we can, we can demolish 40 beers.Drink up, drink up, drink up, drink up and come

www.armystudyguide.com

Not in 1976-79 it wasn’t

 

[Missourian]

Here we have to differentiate between logical and instinctive. Instinctively we believe things even if we know it is false logically.

This is why we train. It is neither logical nor instinctive to run towards danger.

They were afraid of the AR rifle. Because in their minds it was a badassed weapon. A serious weapon

They're all serious weapons. You can take down a polar bear with a .22 short...you just have to be lucky or good.

You mentioned 9MM skipping better than 5.56. Again this is a logical, but not instinctive response.

These guys understand that ALL bullets that fly are a danger. That's both instinctive and logical. What fucked them up was a perfect storm of misfortune. A perpetrator undeterred by police presence, a perpetrator with nothing to lose, a perpetrator who had proven his resolve to kill the innocent, and a perpetrator with a defensible position that could not be breached without endangering innocent civilians.

Perhaps the cops would have charged the door if the Baddie had been armed with a Mini-14. Perhaps they wouldn’t have.

Because of the situation...they were frozen by indecision.

There was no safe alternative...and chances were good that a breach would cause civilian deaths by police bullets.

The safest course of action, both in personal safety and political safety, was to do nothing and hope for the best. CYA.


And that's what happened.

 

[leftwinger]

I thought everyone knew the lock was broken.

Robb Elementary School knew one of the classroom doors didn't lock properly, but no one ever fixed it, an investigative report found. That door was likely used by the shooter to get into the classroom.

Teacher Arnulfo Reyes told administrators his door lock was broken but they failed to fix it, an investigation found.

www.insider.com

Lol! How convenient. The very door picked by a random killer. Nice try. Cover your rear end much?

 

[SavannahMann]

Thanks, I was refreshing my memory of the incident and read the "official" timeline and it stated the door was propped open at 11:52.

Appreciate the update...but it doesn't really change anything. It was a lapse in security protocol likely a result of the complacency I referenced earlier.

The door was supposed to be locked...and it wasn't.

Also, I'm not ignoring your other post...I'm just cognatin' on it a little while before I respond.

I understand. No sweat on the other post.

I seem to recall the teacher who had propped the door open closed it before the baddie got there. But the lock didn’t work right. I remember reading a story where it was claimed they had reported it. But the district hadn’t gotten around to fixing it.

There is ample fault to spread around. There always is. One of my core beliefs is this. It is never one thing. In other words, if you changed one thing it wouldn’t make much difference.

Maybe he wouldn’t have gotten in the door, but he would have found some way in. It isn’t as if finding the door closed and locked he would have just tossed down his rifle and called it a day.

Maybe the cops would have been able to engage outside. Probably not. They needed a couple more minutes to get the first backup units on site. And we are back to their fear of the rifle.

In other words, I doubt one thing would have changed the outcome much. If at all.

For years I’ve said that idiots who do stuff like this use the wrong weapon. A shotgun would be better. One blast would get two or three. Yes you have to aim it, but not as precisely as a true rifle.

No I don’t hope for more carnage. But take any mass shooting and swap weapons in your mind. The Vegas sniper with the bump stock. Swap that out for a .308 Rifle. AP rounds would have penetrated the tanks he was shooting at. A Heckete .50 BMG rifle with API rounds. Puncture the tank and set it aflame.

A true belt fed machine gun would have been a better choice. Look at the casualties. For every dead there was eight to ten wounded. Normal for the 5.56 round. That round was intended to create military level wounds. Wounded soldiers affect morale, and take more off the battlefield than a dead guy. You have to provide care for the wounded.

One thing wouldn’t have changed the outcome. At least not as much as we would hope. Perhaps if the cops had charged in they would have saved more lives. Perhaps not. Perhaps the kids caught in the crossfire would have died anyway. Only Barney Fife would have been the trigger puller.

But we humans want a simple and what we think is an obvious fix. After 9-11 we stepped up security from Kabuki to silly. The problem wasn’t knives sold in the shops at the airport. It wasn’t people over here to get education. It was several things including decades of training to go along with the hijackers and let the experts deal with them. It was a lot of things. Removing one from the mix doesn’t change the outcome that much. The flight were the passengers fought back. They all still died. They could have crashed into a building on the ground, or a town center. Luck decided they wouldn’t.

The attack attempts afterwards were not prevented by the silky security. But by passengers who were aware of what was going on.

 

[Missourian]

Lol! How convenient. The very door picked by a random killer. Nice try. Cover your rear end much?

The doors should lock no matter what!
Restricting access to school buildings certainly isn't a new concept.

School Access & Visitor Control - School Security

National School Safety and Security Services receives many inquiries from parents and school officials about school access control. Issues to consider are listed below. An Expectation of Safety Access control to school campuses and buildings is a top concern for most school officials. School...

www.schoolsecurity.org

 

[SavannahMann]

Times up.

"We are, we are, we are, we are the Army Engineers,
We can, we can, we can, we can demolish 40 beers!"

It's the Army Engineers Song...one of, if not the most popular Engineer songs / cadences for Basic and AIT soldiers.

There is not an Army Engineer who doesn't know it.

The Engineer Song - Army Education Benefits Blog

Chorus:We are, we are, we are, we are, we are the Engineers.We can, we can, we can, we can demolish 40 beers.Drink up, drink up, drink up, drink up and come

www.armystudyguide.com

My Father was a miner on the upper malamute. My mother was a hostess at a house of ill repute. They kicked me out of house and home in me tender years so I told them all to go to hell and joined the engineers.

 

[Missourian]

My Father was a miner on the upper malamute. My mother was a hostess at a house of ill repute. They kicked me out of house and home in me tender years so I told them all to go to hell and joined the engineers.

I wasn't a Combat Engineer. IM MI.

I was stationed at the reception center at Leonard Wood to help trainees that required clearance for their Advance Training complete their paperwork, conduct their initial interviews, and get their investigations started. Many of them needed an interim clearance just to attend training beyond basic.

I must have heard that as a cadence thousands times.