Has Our Republic Died?

kaz

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The author of the 1619 Project wrote that "one of the primary reasons the colonists decided to declare their independence from Britain was because they wanted to protect the institution of slavery.” This was simply not true.

Of course in the actual war there were opportunist appeals to various Indian tribes and slaves ... from both sides. The few slaves in the South who actually escaped and fought with the British side ... were brave men battling for their freedom. So too were the Indians who fought with the British. But this doesn’t change the nature of the struggle as a whole.

Blacks in New England, where anti-slavery sentiments were then more fertile than in England itself, often fought with the Americans. Crucially, emancipation was achieved in many New England states as that revolutionary period ended. Time limits were put on slavery in important states like New York, so that future generations were born free, and even once enslaved men and women like Sojourner Truth could become free. Anti-slavery sentiment was stronger in New England than England proper in those early times.

Of course racism was already a reality almost everywhere and slavery was not to “wither away” as many hoped but to ever more deeply establish itself in the Southern economy. The Constitution of the new Republic, without mentioning the word “slavery” or slaves, carved out a political compromise recognizing its reality. The Civil War of course did not end racism.

In my opinion it is appropriate to recognize human slavery (and the racism and stigmas and inequality it generated) as a deep rooted “Original Sin” of our Republic. It unfortunately remains with us even today, long after the Civil War, long after the rise of Jim Crow segregation and its formal end in the 1960s.
And yet slavery wasn't just an American institution as you imply. In fact it isn't just blacks who were slaves or whites who were slave owners. It still exists in Africa. Focusing on the United States with the history of slavery is obviously an agenda, not fact based.

Of course we shouldn't forget it happened or condemn that it did. But it has nothing to do with today. Everyone is free to make of themselves what they will. In fact Democrats by focusing on it and telling blacks they can't succeed do nothing but harm. And of course it's Democrat who keep blacks poor by importing millions of illegal aliens to drive down wages and take their jobs. And it's Democrats who prevent even black parents willing to drive their kids to better schools from being allowed to do that.

There is nothing productive about how it's treated today and a whole lot wrong with how it's treated today
 

JoeB131

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And yet slavery wasn't just an American institution as you imply. In fact it isn't just blacks who were slaves or whites who were slave owners. It still exists in Africa. Focusing on the United States with the history of slavery is obviously an agenda, not fact based.
We're the only country that fought a civil war because some states wanted to keep it. Every other western country abolished it peacefully.

Of course we shouldn't forget it happened or condemn that it did. But it has nothing to do with today.
Uh, no, guy, you can't pretend that didn't happen, nor ignore the fact that 400 years of institutionalized racism doesn't have an effect to this very day.

Let's not forget, the only reason why Republicans picked Trump over all the other Wingnuts promoting the usual bad ideas is that he was the most open with his racism. The average Bubba-redneck doesn't care about Supply Side Economics, but he's still freaking out "President Obama" was even a thing.
 

Tom Paine 1949

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And yet slavery wasn't just an American institution.... Focusing on the United States with the history of slavery is obviously an agenda, not fact based...

But it has nothing to do with today....

There is nothing productive about how it's treated today and a whole lot wrong with how it's treated today.
This thread asks “Has Our Republic Died?” and the original poster posed the question — as is usual here — in the grossest party-partisan terms, missing the point entirely.

You are continuing in that manner now. I discussed a key question about the nature of our Republic’s origin and history in a non-partisan manner and in order to repudiate a liberal misreading of that history. Your maintaining that our Republic’s racial history “has nothing to do with today” is absurd and repudiated by your own insistence that “there is a whole lot wrong with how it’s treated today.”

Why would there even be discussions of how slavery, racism, our Constitution and Civil War monuments ... “are treated today” ... if this history were not important to Americans? Why would there be debate over the “1619 Project” and ghetto crime, racism and economic inequality? Why would there even be ghetto violence and racial inequalities?

Whites and African-Americans still have many different values and political views, as do white progressives and white reactionaries (or conservatives & liberals or however you want to put it). This is hardly surprising ... given the history of slavery, the Civil War, forced segregation of blacks into an oppressed race-color caste, and the economic and social changes since the Civil Rights movement.

If our Republic is not dead, it will have to prove it by continuing to resolve these old unresolved problems ... and many new ones I have described earlier ... and it can’t do that by pretending they don’t exist.
 
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kaz

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Going off in your racist rants again. No one is talking about race but you. That wasn't the subject of the discussion.
Is this some kind of Fifth grade response, "no, you are", when the obvious racism of the right is pointed out?
Obviously you realized you were getting your ass handed to you since you had to deflect. You know a leftist knows they are losing ... badly ... when out of the blue you shout, but you're a racist. Of course you know you're the racist, which is why you have to keep saying you're not.

I notice you've never clearly denounced white supremacy. Why not I wonder? Actually I don't, Grand Turtle
 

kaz

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And yet slavery wasn't just an American institution as you imply. In fact it isn't just blacks who were slaves or whites who were slave owners. It still exists in Africa. Focusing on the United States with the history of slavery is obviously an agenda, not fact based.
We're the only country that fought a civil war because some states wanted to keep it. Every other western country abolished it peacefully.

Of course we shouldn't forget it happened or condemn that it did. But it has nothing to do with today.
Uh, no, guy, you can't pretend that didn't happen, nor ignore the fact that 400 years of institutionalized racism doesn't have an effect to this very day.

Let's not forget, the only reason why Republicans picked Trump over all the other Wingnuts promoting the usual bad ideas is that he was the most open with his racism. The average Bubba-redneck doesn't care about Supply Side Economics, but he's still freaking out "President Obama" was even a thing.
The pitiful product of a government so called "education"
 

kaz

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And yet slavery wasn't just an American institution.... Focusing on the United States with the history of slavery is obviously an agenda, not fact based...

But it has nothing to do with today....

There is nothing productive about how it's treated today and a whole lot wrong with how it's treated today.
This thread asks “Has Our Republic Died?” and the original poster posed the question — as is usual here — in the grossest party-partisan terms, missing the point entirely.

You are continuing in that manner now. I discussed a key question about the nature of our Republic’s origin and history in a non-partisan manner and in order to repudiate a liberal misreading of that history. Your maintaining that our Republic’s racial history “has nothing to do with today” is absurd and repudiated by your own insistence that “there is a whole lot wrong with how it’s treated today.”

Why would there even be discussions of how slavery, racism, our Constitution and Civil War monuments ... “are treated today” ... if this history were not important to Americans? Why would there be debate over the “1619 Project” and ghetto crime, racism and economic inequality? Why would there even be ghetto violence and racial inequalities?

Whites and African-Americans still have many different values and political views, as do white progressives and white reactionaries (or conservatives & liberals or however you want to put it). This is hardly surprising ... given the history of slavery, the Civil War, forced segregation of blacks into an oppressed race-color caste, and the economic and social changes since the Civil Rights movement.

If our Republic is not dead, it will have to prove it by continuing to resolve these old unresolved problems ... and many new ones I have described earlier ... and it can’t do that by pretending they don’t exist.
Focusing on the past isn't going to help blacks or anyone else in the future. Telling them they can't succeed because the system is against them is a lie and demoralizing. Then you advocate millions of illegals taking the jobs and driving down wages for poor blacks. And if black parents are willing to drive their kids to better schools, you say no, stay in your shitty inner city neighborhood school.

My father in law came to the US barely speaking a word of English. He spoke only basic English when he died. He also died rich and a neighbor of Linda Carter and Sugar Ray Leonard. That's what to tell blacks. Not they can't succeed because of slavery that ended 160 years ago, but that they can.

Blacks would do so much better in this country if Democrats would stop "helping" them. And you could stop taking jobs from poor blacks, that would help too
 

esalla

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We are at a point in our Republic that leads me to believe it is about to die if it has not already.

Joe Biden is accused of Committing Treason while he was a sitting Vice President and our media refuses to cover the story. Hard evidence of Joe committing Treason and giving up secrets to China thorough his son Hunter have come to light. The media that is charged with keeping the public informed has become the propaganda arm of the democrat party. Those given protections to keep us informed have gotten in bed with traitors..

The democrats have been chipping away at our republic for years and they almost have it destroyed. The placement of Justice Barrett on the court places one more obstacle in their way. They will try and sweep this obstacle away by packing the court.

Every part of our government is under attack. Biden misused the Office of the VP to enrich himself and his family while selling out the American public's jobs and security.

No one wants to discuss this... No one wants to report on this, And the main player wants to be our president and has deep financial ties to our enemies....

Our Republic is dead and the only thing standing between our country and us being sold out to our enemies is our VOTE.
It is dead from what it was when I grew up. See the FBI used to investigate and prosecute communist, now they protect them.

It's already dead
 

Tom Paine 1949

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And yet slavery wasn't just an American institution.... Focusing on the United States with the history of slavery is obviously an agenda, not fact based...

But it has nothing to do with today....

There is nothing productive about how it's treated today and a whole lot wrong with how it's treated today.
This thread asks “Has Our Republic Died?” and the original poster posed the question — as is usual here — in the grossest party-partisan terms, missing the point entirely.

You are continuing in that manner now. I discussed a key question about the nature of our Republic’s origin and history in a non-partisan manner and in order to repudiate a liberal misreading of that history. Your maintaining that our Republic’s racial history “has nothing to do with today” is absurd and repudiated by your own insistence that “there is a whole lot wrong with how it’s treated today.”

Why would there even be discussions of how slavery, racism, our Constitution and Civil War monuments ... “are treated today” ... if this history were not important to Americans? Why would there be debate over the “1619 Project” and ghetto crime, racism and economic inequality? Why would there even be ghetto violence and racial inequalities?

Whites and African-Americans still have many different values and political views, as do white progressives and white reactionaries (or conservatives & liberals or however you want to put it). This is hardly surprising ... given the history of slavery, the Civil War, forced segregation of blacks into an oppressed race-color caste, and the economic and social changes since the Civil Rights movement.

If our Republic is not dead, it will have to prove it by continuing to resolve these old unresolved problems ... and many new ones I have described earlier ... and it can’t do that by pretending they don’t exist.
Focusing on the past isn't going to help blacks or anyone else in the future. Telling them they can't succeed because the system is against them is a lie and demoralizing. Then you advocate millions of illegals taking the jobs and driving down wages for poor blacks. And if black parents are willing to drive their kids to better schools, you say no, stay in your shitty inner city neighborhood school.

My father in law came to the US barely speaking a word of English. He spoke only basic English when he died. He also died rich and a neighbor of Linda Carter and Sugar Ray Leonard. That's what to tell blacks. Not they can't succeed because of slavery that ended 160 years ago, but that they can.

Blacks would do so much better in this country if Democrats would stop "helping" them. And you could stop taking jobs from poor blacks, that would help too
Clearly you are not responding to anything I actually said. Instead, you presume mistakenly to know what I believe, while repeating comforting old Horacio Alger myths, an increasingly bitter lie to hardworking Americans of all ethnicities.
 

kaz

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And yet slavery wasn't just an American institution.... Focusing on the United States with the history of slavery is obviously an agenda, not fact based...

But it has nothing to do with today....

There is nothing productive about how it's treated today and a whole lot wrong with how it's treated today.
This thread asks “Has Our Republic Died?” and the original poster posed the question — as is usual here — in the grossest party-partisan terms, missing the point entirely.

You are continuing in that manner now. I discussed a key question about the nature of our Republic’s origin and history in a non-partisan manner and in order to repudiate a liberal misreading of that history. Your maintaining that our Republic’s racial history “has nothing to do with today” is absurd and repudiated by your own insistence that “there is a whole lot wrong with how it’s treated today.”

Why would there even be discussions of how slavery, racism, our Constitution and Civil War monuments ... “are treated today” ... if this history were not important to Americans? Why would there be debate over the “1619 Project” and ghetto crime, racism and economic inequality? Why would there even be ghetto violence and racial inequalities?

Whites and African-Americans still have many different values and political views, as do white progressives and white reactionaries (or conservatives & liberals or however you want to put it). This is hardly surprising ... given the history of slavery, the Civil War, forced segregation of blacks into an oppressed race-color caste, and the economic and social changes since the Civil Rights movement.

If our Republic is not dead, it will have to prove it by continuing to resolve these old unresolved problems ... and many new ones I have described earlier ... and it can’t do that by pretending they don’t exist.
Focusing on the past isn't going to help blacks or anyone else in the future. Telling them they can't succeed because the system is against them is a lie and demoralizing. Then you advocate millions of illegals taking the jobs and driving down wages for poor blacks. And if black parents are willing to drive their kids to better schools, you say no, stay in your shitty inner city neighborhood school.

My father in law came to the US barely speaking a word of English. He spoke only basic English when he died. He also died rich and a neighbor of Linda Carter and Sugar Ray Leonard. That's what to tell blacks. Not they can't succeed because of slavery that ended 160 years ago, but that they can.

Blacks would do so much better in this country if Democrats would stop "helping" them. And you could stop taking jobs from poor blacks, that would help too
Clearly you are not responding to anything I actually said. Instead, you presume mistakenly to know what I believe, while repeating comforting old Horacio Alger myths, an increasingly bitter lie to hardworking Americans of all ethnicities.
You argued that we should focus on slavery still because that still affects blacks.

I said that is harming them. It's Democrats telling them they are prevented from succeeding. It's Democrats who take the jobs from poor blacks and drive down low end wages by importing millions of illegal aliens. It's Democrats who attack blacks for their skin color when they don't vote the right way. It's Democrats who prevent even parents who care enough to get their kids out of their shitty neighborhood schools and into better ones from doing it.

Your not liking my answer is not the same as my not responding to what you said. You said we should focus on the impacts of slavery still. I agree, but you're doing it the wrong way. Stop using slavery to continue to tear blacks down
 

Tom Paine 1949

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Again, kaz, you are so wrapped up in your obsessions attacking Democrats and defending Republicans, that you end up lying about everything I actually said. You pay no attention to what I have actually argued ...
 

kaz

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Again, kaz, you are so wrapped up in your obsessions attacking Democrats and defending Republicans, that you end up lying about everything I actually said. You pay no attention to what I have actually argued ...
I didn't say anything about Republicans. I thought you complained about not reading responses
 

JoeB131

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Focusing on the past isn't going to help blacks or anyone else in the future. Telling them they can't succeed because the system is against them is a lie and demoralizing. Then you advocate millions of illegals taking the jobs and driving down wages for poor blacks. And if black parents are willing to drive their kids to better schools, you say no, stay in your shitty inner city neighborhood school.
First, no one really wants the jobs undocumented immigrants are taking. Company I worked for used temps who we knew were illegals for the scrub work. Then they got bought out by a bigger company, and they said, "No more illegals". Well, the only "Americans" they could find willing to work for those wages were a bunch of white meth-heads... who absolutely terrified the office girls. They disappear after their first paycheck and they'd bring in a whole new lot of them the next week.

My father in law came to the US barely speaking a word of English. He spoke only basic English when he died. He also died rich and a neighbor of Linda Carter and Sugar Ray Leonard. That's what to tell blacks. Not they can't succeed because of slavery that ended 160 years ago, but that they can.
Blacks would do so much better in this country if Democrats would stop "helping" them. And you could stop taking jobs from poor blacks, that would help too
Funny, you guys never implement these kinds of "reforms" when you are in power. In fact, the only reform of the welfare system that happened was by Bill Clinton.

Again, that's kind of the problem. A white person can get here off the boat, and jump the line ahead of people of color who built this country.... I'm sorry you don't see why this is a problem.
 

kaz

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Focusing on the past isn't going to help blacks or anyone else in the future. Telling them they can't succeed because the system is against them is a lie and demoralizing. Then you advocate millions of illegals taking the jobs and driving down wages for poor blacks. And if black parents are willing to drive their kids to better schools, you say no, stay in your shitty inner city neighborhood school.
First, no one really wants the jobs undocumented immigrants are taking. Company I worked for used temps who we knew were illegals for the scrub work. Then they got bought out by a bigger company, and they said, "No more illegals". Well, the only "Americans" they could find willing to work for those wages were a bunch of white meth-heads... who absolutely terrified the office girls. They disappear after their first paycheck and they'd bring in a whole new lot of them the next week
Well of course they don't want the jobs illegals are taking. Illegals drove down the wages for those jobs to where no one wants them for how little they pay. Duh, that is EXACTLY my point. I've said that repeatedly, racist.

In any city now there is a place you can pick up illegals to do things like pack and unpack your truck, to do yard or construction work. Of course poor Americans want those jobs ... if they paid market wages.

I'm not an elitist snob like you. My church paid me to clean it what they would have paid someone else to help me out. Including the toilets. I did all kinds of construction and manual labor jobs to earn my way through college. I got a little help from my parents, not much. I worked summers, breaks and when I could during the semester. In the 80s I worked for $10 an hour and I was good and reliable and had all the work I could handle. That was a good wage in the 80s. Of course Americans would do those jobs to day for a fair price. But by driving down those wages, yes, racists like you keep those jobs undesirable for Americans
 
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kaz

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Blacks would do so much better in this country if Democrats would stop "helping" them. And you could stop taking jobs from poor blacks, that would help too
Funny, you guys never implement these kinds of "reforms" when you are in power. In fact, the only reform of the welfare system that happened was by Bill Clinton.

Again, that's kind of the problem. A white person can get here off the boat, and jump the line ahead of people of color who built this country.... I'm sorry you don't see why this is a problem.
It's called a free market, dumbass. You want a plan to control free markets to give the right people more jobs. Um ... what? Talk about stupid.

All we have to do is STOP Democrats from taking jobs from the poor Americans and driving down wages. And let someone who wants to take their kid to a better school do it. Then they will do it on their own
 

JoeB131

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Well of course they don't want the jobs illegals are taking. Illegals drove down the wages for those jobs to where no one wants them for how little they pay. Duh, that is EXACTLY my point. I've said that repeatedly, racist.
Uh, no, they don't want them because they are really shitty jobs.


Honestly, you couldn't pay me enough to gut chickens all day... or pick lettuce, or do any of the other jobs that illegals do...

In any city now there is a place you can pick up illegals to do things like pack and unpack your truck, to do yard or construction work. Of course poor Americans want those jobs ... if they paid market wages.
Exactly how do you create "Market wages" for day laborers hired off the books? Nobody wants those jobs, that's the thing.

I'm not an elitist snob like you. My church paid me to clean it what they would have paid someone else to help me out. Including the toilets. I did all kinds of construction and manual labor jobs to earn my way through college. I got a little help from my parents, not much. I worked summers, breaks and when I could during the semester.
Hey, True story... I did those kinds of shitty jobs in HS and College, too. But when I did them the Minimum wage was actually WORTH SOMETHING.

As I've pointed out, my tuition at UIC was $1600 a year. WHich means working Minimum wage, I could pay that off working a mere ten hours a week. (The National Guard picked that up in my case, so I didn't need to).

Today, you could work a minimum wage job for 40 hours a week and not afford UIC. The campus they built for poor urban kids... Well, those Urban kids are long gone now.
 

whitehall

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I believe our Republic is bigger than the left wing thugs who have taken over the media.
 

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