Hamas leader: Nations are recognizing Palestinian state due to ‘fruits of October 7’

[Shusha]

Live in or govern?

Use of the term “settlements” suggests live in.

Israel controls utilities and the permitting process in the West Bank and has used that power to displace Palestinians

Source?

 

[toobfreak]

Nations are recognizing Palestinian state due to ‘fruits of October 7’​

Gee, if a few asshole rogue nations are "recognizing" a palestinian state due to the fruits of 10/7, then there should be a big, long line of nations recognizing Israel due to the fruits of fighting back and punching their attackers from Hamas and palestine right in the mouth.

I'll say it again: the war in Gaza would end tomorrow if only Hamas did not keep dragging it on and on.

 

[alang1216]

You’ve got it backwards with the Arabs. They would be forced to give the land back to the Jewish people who preceded the Arab invasion, conquest, and colonization

Do I? If you're talking about the Jews who left a millennia or two ago, how can you prove the Jews today are their descendants and not later converts? If my DNA says I'm a descendent of the Canaanites what lands am I entitled to?

That aside, take note that I was not discussing how one gains rights, I was discussing exclusively if and under which circumstances, one loses rights. Do you agree that invasion, conquest, and colonization does not remove the rights of the existing peoples?

I don't agree. If your grandfather was born in the country you live in, that country is yours and all others have forfeited their rights to it. Arbitrary I know but a line has to be drawn somewhere.

 

[alang1216]

Use of the term “settlements” suggests live in.

And govern.

Source?

AI Overview: Israel controls utilities and the permitting process in the West Bank and has used that power to displace Palestinians

Yes, reports from sources such as the
UN, Human Rights Watch, and Al Jazeera indicate that Israel exercises significant control over utilities and the permitting process in the West Bank. This control is reported to have contributed to the displacement of Palestinians through various mechanisms:

• Discriminatory planning and zoning policies: Israel's planning and zoning policies, particularly in Area C of the West Bank (under full Israeli civil and security control), are described as favoring Israeli settlements while restricting Palestinian development.
• Permit regime and demolitions: Palestinians face extreme difficulty obtaining building permits, with high rates of rejection for permit applications. Palestinian structures built without permits face the threat of demolition, leading to displacement.
• Control over water resources: Israel's control over water resources and infrastructure in the West Bank is reported to limit Palestinian access to sufficient water supplies for domestic and agricultural use. This can make livelihoods unsustainable and contribute to displacement.
• Settler activities and land control: Reports suggest that Israeli settler activities in the West Bank impair Palestinian access to essential resources like water springs, often leading to displacement.
• Dependency on Israeli services: Palestinians' dependence on Israeli-provided utilities like water and electricity is also cited as a mechanism of control and can be weaponized in times of conflict or for political pressure.

It is important to note that these actions are subject to ongoing international scrutiny and criticism, with various human rights organizations and international bodies raising concerns about their impact on Palestinians' human rights and the potential for forced displacement.

 

[Mac-7]

I disagree. Both sides see the struggle as existential so they are both unwilling to accept peace and give up on victory. The US needs to stop enabling Israel to feel invincible, we are not helping to bring peace to the region.

For Israel peace means death for the Jewish state

The arabs are the only side with a choice

 

[Shusha]

If you're talking about the Jews who left were partly ethnically cleansed millennia or two ago, how can you prove the Jews today are their descendants and not later converts?

Easy. They hold the container that is the ethnic, cultural, and national identity: language, custom, traditions, life celebrations, holidays, clothing, food, history, literature, myths, religious rituals, system of laws. All intimately tied to the land of their origins.

The underlying raison d'etre of self-determination is identity. No one is calling for arranging states based on people's blood measurements. That would be silly in the extreme.

If my DNA says I'm a descendent of the Canaanites what lands am I entitled to?

None. Because the Canaanite peoples (ethnic, cultural, or natural identity) no longer exists and has no need of self-determination as an indigenous collective and would have no way to express self-determination or their identity.

I don't agree. If your grandfather was born in the country you live in, that country is yours and all others have forfeited their rights to it.

I'm not sure your logic works here. You might need to clarify, especially to disambiguate individuals from sovereigns.

If you are a collective of peoples with an ethnic, cultural, or national identity and can conquer a territory and hold it, it belongs to that collective of peoples in three generations and the indigenous or preceding peoples forfeit all rights to the territory?! Are you sure you want to go with that?

 

[Shusha]

AI Overview: Israel controls utilities and the permitting process in the West Bank and has used that power to displace Palestinians

We are going to have to distinguish between displacement of individuals for actual reasons and the forced displacement of entire groups based on an ethnic, cultural, or national distinction. To clarify my point, there is no current and on-going forced displacement of Arab Palestinians as an ethnic group from Jerusalem, Area C, or from Gaza.

 

[alang1216]

Easy. They hold the container that is the ethnic, cultural, and national identity: language, custom, traditions, life celebrations, holidays, clothing, food, history, literature, myths, religious rituals, system of laws. All intimately tied to the land of their origins.

Sounds problematic to me. If someone converts to Judaism do they have the same rights as those born to the religion? Are Reform and Orthodox Jews equals? Are Sephardic and Ashkenazi Jews equals? If only one of your parents are Jewish do you still qualify?

I'm not sure your logic works here. You might need to clarify, especially to disambiguate individuals from sovereigns.

If you are a collective of peoples with an ethnic, cultural, or national identity and can conquer a territory and hold it, it belongs to that collective of peoples in three generations and the indigenous or preceding peoples forfeit all rights to the territory?! Are you sure you want to go with that?

Any rule would be arbitrary but if neither you nor your parents were born there, you ties there should be minimal.

 

[Lisa558]

The essence of your post is that you like Israelis when they are being tortured and killed but not when they fight back.

There have been no Israeli attacks against Palestinian civilians, but because Hamas embeds its fighters in civilian areas, many civilians have been caught in the crossfire between Hamas and the IDF. While it is easy to feel sorry for Palestinian civilians as individuals, all the information we have shows they overwhelmingly support Hamas' atrocities against Israelis so in that sense they are the authors of their own suffering.

Gold Meir said “The world likes us only when we are to pitied. They hate us when we fight back.”

(Slight paraphrasing)

 

[alang1216]

We are going to have to distinguish between displacement of individuals for actual reasons and the forced displacement of entire groups based on an ethnic, cultural, or national distinction. To clarify my point, there is no current and on-going forced displacement of Arab Palestinians as an ethnic group from Jerusalem, Area C, or from Gaza.

When individuals are discriminated against because they belong to a specific group, there is on-going forced displacement of that ethnic group.

Can Arabs Buy Land in Israel? Legally yes but in practice there are severe restrictions.
Can Arabs buy land in Israeli settlements? While Israeli law does not explicitly prohibit Arabs from purchasing land in Israeli settlements, in practice, significant barriers exist that make it extremely difficult, if not impossible, for Arabs to buy property in these areas.

Obstacles and Legalities of Rebuilding Homes for Palestinians in the West Bank:

Palestinians face significant obstacles in rebuilding their homes in the West Bank, particularly within Area C, which remains under full Israeli control. While Areas A and B are under Palestinian civilian control (with Area B also under Israeli security control), the Israeli Civil Administration maintains planning authority over building permits in Area C.​

Demolitions and the "Permit Regime"

• Administrative Demolitions: Homes are frequently demolished due to a lack of Israeli-issued building permits, which are notoriously difficult for Palestinians to obtain in Area C.
• Rejection of Permits: The Civil Administration rejects a high percentage of Palestinian permit applications in Area C – estimates suggest over 94% between 2000 and 2007. More recent reports from August 2023 indicate that the Civil Administration rejects 95% of applications, granting fewer than 10 permits per year.
• Punitive Demolitions: In addition to demolitions for lack of permits, Israel also carries out demolitions as a form of punishment against individuals or their relatives accused of attacking or attempting to attack Israeli forces.

 

[Lisa558]

When individuals are discriminated against because they belong to a specific group, there is on-going forced displacement of that ethnic group.

Can Arabs Buy Land in Israel? Legally yes but in practice there are severe restrictions.
Can Arabs buy land in Israeli settlements? While Israeli law does not explicitly prohibit Arabs from purchasing land in Israeli settlements, in practice, significant barriers exist that make it extremely difficult, if not impossible, for Arabs to buy property in these areas.

Obstacles and Legalities of Rebuilding Homes for Palestinians in the West Bank:

Palestinians face significant obstacles in rebuilding their homes in the West Bank, particularly within Area C, which remains under full Israeli control. While Areas A and B are under Palestinian civilian control (with Area B also under Israeli security control), the Israeli Civil Administration maintains planning authority over building permits in Area C.​

Demolitions and the "Permit Regime"

• Administrative Demolitions: Homes are frequently demolished due to a lack of Israeli-issued building permits, which are notoriously difficult for Palestinians to obtain in Area C.
• Rejection of Permits: The Civil Administration rejects a high percentage of Palestinian permit applications in Area C – estimates suggest over 94% between 2000 and 2007. More recent reports from August 2023 indicate that the Civil Administration rejects 95% of applications, granting fewer than 10 permits per year.
• Punitive Demolitions: In addition to demolitions for lack of permits, Israel also carries out demolitions as a form of punishment against individuals or their relatives accused of attacking or attempting to attack Israeli forces.

Nearly a million Jews have been driven out of the entire Middle East by Arabs, who stole their land and all assets. One country even forced Jews to sign fake contracts deeding all their property to the Arabs after they were given 24-hour notice to vacate their homes and leave the country.

Why is it your complaints are focused solely on what Jews do when the Arabs do much worse?

 

[alang1216]

Nearly a million Jews have been driven out of the entire Middle East by Arabs, who stole their land and all assets. One country even forced Jews to sign fake contracts deeding all their property to the Arabs after they were given 24-hour notice to vacate their homes and leave the country.

Why is it your complaints are focused solely on what Jews do when the Arabs do much worse?

You misunderstand me, I think both sides are at fault, there are no good-guys vs bad-guys here.

 

[Lisa558]

You misunderstand me, I think both sides are at fault, there are no good-guys vs bad-guys here.

Better, but still wrong. The Arabs are much worse. The Jews don’t send their kids to kindergarten where they play “Kill the Muslim!” games. The Palestinians DO (to kill Jews).

 

[rosends]

Any rule would be arbitrary but if neither you nor your parents were born there, you ties there should be minimal.

So you are against any right of return of Arab descendants of refugees who left in 1948?

 

[alang1216]

So you are against any right of return of Arab descendants of refugees who left in 1948?

I'm not sure a one-size-fits-all is appropriate in every case. My proposal was just a rule of thumb. For a man who was born in Egypt to a father who was born in Egypt after the father's parents fled Israel and made a life for his family in Egypt, I'd probably say no. Compensation for lost property is a maybe.

 

[Shusha]

When individuals are discriminated against because they belong to a specific group, there is on-going forced displacement of that ethnic group.

You fail to distinguish between Arabs as an ethnic group and Arabs as citizens or non-citizens of Israel. It is a vital distinction.

Whether you agree with this or not, Area C is under the control of Israel. Legally and for all practical purposes, it is Israel's territory.

There is no obligation for a state to treat non-citizens as citizens. There are five countries which prohibit foreign land ownership and a further 24 which severely restrict foreign land ownership. There are many reasons for these restrictions, but the most common is national security. It is a matter of national security, which is why Palestine has not only a restriction on foreign land ownership, but views it as criminal activity to sell land to "foreign nationals of an enemy state".

Even if restrictions were not in place, there is very little privately-owned land in Israel and Area C, most of it confined to cities. Only about 10% of the land is privately owned and available for sale. The remaining 90% of the land is state-owned and can not be sold to anyone. It can be leased for periods of time and those leases can be renewed. This was also the case pre-Israel under the Ottoman Empire. Most of Area C is this type of land: owned by the state (now Israel). It can not be purchased, only leased (miri land). Thus most of the land Arab citizens of Palestine claim to be "private land" is actually state-owned miri. In many cases, Arab citizens of Palestine have a leasehold deed. In many cases, they do not.

Israel is not displacing Arab citizens of Palestine from or within Area C.

Can Arabs Buy Land in Israel?

Yes. Israeli citizens of Arab ethnicity buy and sell private land in Israel the same way Israeli citizens of Jewish ethnicity buy and sell private land. There are no distinctions due to ethnicity.

Can Arabs buy land in Israeli settlements?

Yes, Israeli citizens of Arab ethnicity can buy (privately-owned) or lease (publicly-owned) land in the exact same was as Israeli citizens of Jewish ethnicity.

Israeli law does not explicitly prohibit Arabs from purchasing land in Israeli settlements,

Exactly.

Areas A and B are under Palestinian civilian control

Yes. Building permits and other infrastructure is planned and authorized by the government of Palestine.

Israeli Civil Administration maintains planning authority over building permits in Area C.

Yes. Building permits and other infrastructure is planned and authorized by the government of Israel.

Administrative Demolitions: Homes are frequently demolished due to a lack of Israeli-issued building permits,

Yes. Structures built without the proper permits will be demolished. That would happen here in Canada too.

• Rejection of Permits: The Civil Administration rejects a high percentage of Palestinian permit applications in Area C – estimates suggest over 94% between 2000 and 2007. More recent reports from August 2023 indicate that the Civil Administration rejects 95% of applications, granting fewer than 10 permits per year.

Yes. This is true. Very few permits are issued for Palestinian citizens in Israeli-controlled territory. Obviously, the reasons for this are complex. Political reasons, national security, failure to provide proper planning, attempting to build on state-owned land without a lease, claiming land as "private" without documentation, cultivating land as a means to appropriate it. The reasons are many and complex. That Arab citizens of Palestine are discriminated against solely on the basis that they are Arab is a child's view of a difficult political situation.

 

[Shusha]

Sounds problematic to me. If someone converts to Judaism do they have the same rights as those born to the religion? Are Reform and Orthodox Jews equals? Are Sephardic and Ashkenazi Jews equals? If only one of your parents are Jewish do you still qualify?

According to the UN Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples:

Article 9
Indigenous peoples and individuals have the right to belong to an indigenous community or nation, in accordance with the traditions and customs of the community or nation concerned.

Each indigenous peoples determines, according to their own traditions, who is part of their community.

What do you find is problematic?

Any rule would be arbitrary but if neither you nor your parents were born there, you ties there should be minimal.

You are conflating individual citizenship with sovereign self-determination of indigenous peoples.

The question on the table was: Under what circumstances would an indigenous peoples LOSE their right to self-determination in the territory of their origin?

If you want, you can also ask this question: Under what circumstances would an invading, conquesting, and colonizing peoples GAIN the right to self-determination in a foreign territory?

 

[alang1216]

You fail to distinguish between Arabs as an ethnic group and Arabs as citizens or non-citizens of Israel. It is a vital distinction.

Whether you agree with this or not, Area C is under the control of Israel. Legally and for all practical purposes, it is Israel's territory.

There is no obligation for a state to treat non-citizens as citizens. There are five countries which prohibit foreign land ownership and a further 24 which severely restrict foreign land ownership. There are many reasons for these restrictions, but the most common is national security. It is a matter of national security, which is why Palestine has not only a restriction on foreign land ownership, but views it as criminal activity to sell land to "foreign nationals of an enemy state".

Even if restrictions were not in place, there is very little privately-owned land in Israel and Area C, most of it confined to cities. Only about 10% of the land is privately owned and available for sale. The remaining 90% of the land is state-owned and can not be sold to anyone. It can be leased for periods of time and those leases can be renewed. This was also the case pre-Israel under the Ottoman Empire. Most of Area C is this type of land: owned by the state (now Israel). It can not be purchased, only leased (miri land). Thus most of the land Arab citizens of Palestine claim to be "private land" is actually state-owned miri. In many cases, Arab citizens of Palestine have a leasehold deed. In many cases, they do not.

Israel is not displacing Arab citizens of Palestine from or within Area C.

Yes. Israeli citizens of Arab ethnicity buy and sell private land in Israel the same way Israeli citizens of Jewish ethnicity buy and sell private land. There are no distinctions due to ethnicity.

Yes, Israeli citizens of Arab ethnicity can buy (privately-owned) or lease (publicly-owned) land in the exact same was as Israeli citizens of Jewish ethnicity.

Exactly.

Yes. Building permits and other infrastructure is planned and authorized by the government of Palestine.

Yes. Building permits and other infrastructure is planned and authorized by the government of Israel.

Yes. Structures built without the proper permits will be demolished. That would happen here in Canada too.

Yes. This is true. Very few permits are issued for Palestinian citizens in Israeli-controlled territory. Obviously, the reasons for this are complex. Political reasons, national security, failure to provide proper planning, attempting to build on state-owned land without a lease, claiming land as "private" without documentation, cultivating land as a means to appropriate it. The reasons are many and complex. That Arab citizens of Palestine are discriminated against solely on the basis that they are Arab is a child's view of a difficult political situation.

It is a difficult situation and that is exactly the way Israel wants it to be.

 

[alang1216]

According to the UN Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples:

Article 9
Indigenous peoples and individuals have the right to belong to an indigenous community or nation, in accordance with the traditions and customs of the community or nation concerned.

Each indigenous peoples determines, according to their own traditions, who is part of their community.

What do you find is problematic?

You are conflating individual citizenship with sovereign self-determination of indigenous peoples.

The question on the table was: Under what circumstances would an indigenous peoples LOSE their right to self-determination in the territory of their origin?

If you want, you can also ask this question: Under what circumstances would an invading, conquesting, and colonizing peoples GAIN the right to self-determination in a foreign

Can Israelis claim to be indigenous if Muslims lived there for longer than they have? I don't accept it.

 

[Shusha]

It is a difficult situation and that is exactly the way Israel wants it to be.

Why would Israel want it to continue to be a difficult situation? Why not either cede some territory to "Palestine"? Or assert sovereignty over Area C and either remove foreign nationals, give them permanent resident status, or full citizenship? Or some combination thereof?

More importantly, why doesn't some government in Palestine just do the dirty work of negotiating borders and a peace treaty?