Haaretz: Israel Really Portrays Itself as "Israel At War" Rather Than in the Middle of a Mass Slaughter of Women & Children in Gaza

[GLASNOST]

Crush Israel, rename it Palestine, and deport all Zionists back to New York.

The Gazans, with no food or electricity, are going to do that?

Who crushed the Nazis? The Poles?
Palestine, Iran, Yemen .....

 

[GLASNOST]

That you support the murder of 400,000 Palestinians, half of which are children.

It isn't real. It is not true. One can not "support" an imaginary reality.

What about the Holocaust? Real? True? Imaginary?

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Self-determniation for Jews but denied for the Muslims is the problem.

What does self-determination for the Muslims look like?

Spell it out.

 

[Shusha]

OK.

Self-determniation for Jews but denied for the Muslims is the problem. It goes by a specific name: Zionism.

The only ones denying it for the Arabs are their corrupt and terrorist leaders who have turned down peace agreements over and over and over.

 

[Shusha]

What about the Holocaust? Real? True? Imaginary?

Unworthy.

There are no missing hundreds of thousands of Gazans. It is a lie and a blood libel.

 

[Grau]

I am Canadian and living in Canada. Of course I have been to the ME. And not 50 years ago.

Pretty sure I haven't. Self-determination for the Jewish people (who are clearly indigenous to that land and who have clearly inhabited that land for millennia). Self-determination for a specific national group of Arabs (who have also inhabited that land for some centuries).

There is no conflict with this stance. The conflict only appears when self-determination is demanded for some and denied for others.

How do I deny it? Because it is a silly stance to take. The collective of the Jewish people is an ethnic designation incorporating culture, language, religion, history, life celebrations, holidays, rituals, and all the things that make a distinct people a distinct people. There is NO QUESTION that the Jewish people are the only existing people whose ethnic culture originated in that land and lived on that land throughout their history, despite the forced diaspora. And there is NO QUESTION that those who continued to experience and pass on those cultural practices belong to the collective that is the Jewish people. (Last I checked, Inuit do not speak Hebrew, nor do they follow Jewish custom and law).

On the other hand, the collective of the "Palestinian" people is a national designation, not an ethnic one. There is no collective which holds and carries a unique and distinct culture which can be identified as "Palestinian", as distinct from Arab or Muslim. Arab Palestinians hold a culture of colonization and conquest. Arabic is not a native language to that land. Islam is not a native religion to that land. The culture and customs do not originate on that land.

Declaring that "Palestinians" were there "first" makes "Palestinian" a nonsense word. It entirely dismantles any distinct definition of "Palestinian".

And NONE OF THIS MATTERS. Because it doesn't matter what conditions create a distinct group with inherent rights to self-determination. If we subscribe to the concept of self-determination, then ALL groups hold that right.

It's been a while since I've read such a transparently racist distortion of historical realities, opinion masquerading as fact and arrogant example of "Chosen People / Master Race" entitlement.

Your arguments come across as simply:

1. All of previously occupied Palestine belongs to foreign Jews because they consider themselves special (i.e. "Chosen People / Master Race" again)

2. Only foreign Jews deserve "the right to exist", "the right to self-determination" and their "right to self defense / security" regardless of the cost to Palestine's native residents

Re:

Self-determination for the Jewish people (who are clearly indigenous to that land and who have clearly inhabited that land for millennia).

Again with the superior and eternally entitled "Jewish people".....

Do all residents of the Middle East have the right to "self determination" because Israel's interpretation of a right to "self determination" is looking more and more like Israel's right to US Funded regional hegemony.

Next, it is only your flawed opinion that today's largely foreign Israeli residents are in any way related to the Levant's ancient Hebrew warriors.

You only reveal a shocking lack of knowledge about Ancient Levantine history by denying to existence of cultures with a much earlier and far more legitimate connection to former Palestine than the ancient Hebrews with their sporadic occupations of the same land.

The Levant has not only been the homeland of dozens of "nations", Semetic and non Semitic, but it has served as a land bridge between continents through which numerous Armies have passed or occupied

I hope you'll read the whole article, below, (*) to get an idea of how many groups of people who can legitimately call former Palestine their "Homeland"

Re:

On the other hand, the collective of the "Palestinian" people is a national designation, not an ethnic one.

(*) "The Canaanites, Hittites, Hivites, Perizzites, Girgashites, Amorites, and Jebusites"

Topical Bible: The Canaanites, Hittites, Hivites, Perizzites, Girgashites, Amorites, and Jebusites

EXCERPT "The Canaanites, Hittites, Hivites, Perizzites, Girgashites, Amorites, and Jebusites are frequently mentioned in the Old Testament as the inhabitants of the land of Canaan before the arrival of the Israelites. These groups are often collectively referred to as the "nations" or "peoples" that occupied the Promised Land, which God pledged to the descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob." CONTINUED
Re:

On the other hand, the collective of the "Palestinian" people is a national designation, not an ethnic one.

Attempting to justify the Nakba and the Gaza genocide through obvious rhetorical gymnastics is as old as history, itself.

You're still supporting the mass murder of mainly women and children and attempting to excuse it with label games

 

[Shusha]

Grau

You have, on more than one occasion, requested respectful and genuine dialogue. And I have, on more than one occasion, echoed and agreed to that request.

In this post you have egregiously (and I believe deliberately) misrepresented my position. I am kindly and respectfully asking you to read and accept my words AS WRITTEN and not to ascribe meaning to them that is not actually on the page.

Here is what I actually wrote (summarized):

Self-determination for the Jewish people. Self-determination for the Arab Palestinian people. Each is given the same rights. Fair and equal. No conflict.

It's been a while since I've read such a transparently racist

It is racist to claim the simple reality that peoples have distinct languages, cultures, religious rituals, celebrations, and customs? It is racist to mention that the Welsh have a distinct language? It is racist to claim that the Lakota have distinct burial rituals? It is racist to claim that the Shinto religion originated in Japan? It is racist to recognize the distinct body modification rituals of the Maori peoples? Silly. There is nothing racist about acknowledging the distinct and unique features of various cultures.

distortion of historical realities, opinion masquerading as fact

Here is what I actually wrote:

• the Jewish people have a distinct culture (ethnicity)
• the Jewish culture originated in that land
• the Arab Palestinians have a distinct nationality, but not a distinct culture
• the Arab culture (specifically language and religions) originated elsewhere

There is no distortion. These are demonstrable, historical facts.

and arrogant example of "Chosen People / Master Race" entitlement.

There is nothing in my post about entitlement beyond the shared right of BOTH peoples to self-determination. I did not mention "Chosen People" nor "Master Race". That is a egregious misrepresentation which not only twists my actual meaning, but imparts malice to it. The whole point of the quote function on this message board is to ensure that people's words are not misquoted or misused.

Your arguments come across as simply:

1. All of previously occupied Palestine belongs to foreign Jews because they consider themselves special (i.e. "Chosen People / Master Race" again)

2. Only foreign Jews deserve "the right to exist", "the right to self-determination" and their "right to self defense / security" regardless of the cost to Palestine's native residents


Again with the superior and eternally entitled "Jewish people".....

The polar opposite of what I actually said with a few additions which I didn't even touch on. Disingenuous. I find it fascinating that you claim to want to have a respectful discussion, but rather than respond to what I actually type, you create a falsehood and then argue from the position of that falsehood.

Do all residents of the Middle East have the right to "self determination"

In my opinion, and your mileage may vary, all peoples who have a distinct identity and desire self-determination have the right to self-determination. (Though putting that into practice requires more than simple having the "desire").

Next, it is only your flawed opinion that today's largely foreign Israeli residents are in any way related to the Levant's ancient Hebrew warriors.

No, it is demonstrably true. The Jewish people share the same language, religion, culture, life celebrations, rituals, legal framework, literature, historical records. They carried that culture with them to the diaspora, and returned with it. It would be silly to reject the obvious.

You only reveal a shocking lack of knowledge about Ancient Levantine history by denying to existence of cultures with a much earlier and far more legitimate connection to former Palestine than the ancient Hebrews with their sporadic occupations of the same land.

Since my post was not intended to demonstrate my knowledge of ancient Levantine history, and since I have not attempted to do so, you have no idea the extent of my study and knowledge. And, again with the misrepresentation. I have not at all denied the existence of other (ancient) cultures. My post referenced the two that were relevant to the discussion.

I hope you'll read the whole article, below, (*) to get an idea of how many groups of people who can legitimately call former Palestine their "Homeland"

Bible Hub? Seriously? I am well aware of the many ancient cultures of the land, many of them known only from references from a certain collection of ancient writings.

Here's the thing, though. A Moabite, a Hittite, and a Jebusite walk into a bar and sit down next to an Israeli Jew and an Arab Palestinian. How do we distinguish between the five persons seated at the table? Which of these five identities have the right to self-determination and why?

 

[gipper]

Grau

You have, on more than one occasion, requested respectful and genuine dialogue. And I have, on more than one occasion, echoed and agreed to that request.

In this post you have egregiously (and I believe deliberately) misrepresented my position. I am kindly and respectfully asking you to read and accept my words AS WRITTEN and not to ascribe meaning to them that is not actually on the page.

Here is what I actually wrote (summarized):

Self-determination for the Jewish people. Self-determination for the Arab Palestinian people. Each is given the same rights. Fair and equal. No conflict.


It is racist to claim the simple reality that peoples have distinct languages, cultures, religious rituals, celebrations, and customs? It is racist to mention that the Welsh have a distinct language? It is racist to claim that the Lakota have distinct burial rituals? It is racist to claim that the Shinto religion originated in Japan? It is racist to recognize the distinct body modification rituals of the Maori peoples? Silly. There is nothing racist about acknowledging the distinct and unique features of various cultures.

Here is what I actually wrote:

• the Jewish people have a distinct culture (ethnicity)
• the Jewish culture originated in that land
• the Arab Palestinians have a distinct nationality, but not a distinct culture
• the Arab culture (specifically language and religions) originated elsewhere

There is no distortion. These are demonstrable, historical facts.

There is nothing in my post about entitlement beyond the shared right of BOTH peoples to self-determination. I did not mention "Chosen People" nor "Master Race". That is a egregious misrepresentation which not only twists my actual meaning, but imparts malice to it. The whole point of the quote function on this message board is to ensure that people's words are not misquoted or misused.

The polar opposite of what I actually said with a few additions which I didn't even touch on. Disingenuous. I find it fascinating that you claim to want to have a respectful discussion, but rather than respond to what I actually type, you create a falsehood and then argue from the position of that falsehood.

In my opinion, and your mileage may vary, all peoples who have a distinct identity and desire self-determination have the right to self-determination. (Though putting that into practice requires more than simple having the "desire").

No, it is demonstrably true. The Jewish people share the same language, religion, culture, life celebrations, rituals, legal framework, literature, historical records. They carried that culture with them to the diaspora, and returned with it. It would be silly to reject the obvious.

Since my post was not intended to demonstrate my knowledge of ancient Levantine history, and since I have not attempted to do so, you have no idea the extent of my study and knowledge. And, again with the misrepresentation. I have not at all denied the existence of other (ancient) cultures. My post referenced the two that were relevant to the discussion.

Bible Hub? Seriously? I am well aware of the many ancient cultures of the land, many of them known only from references from a certain collection of ancient writings.

Here's the thing, though. A Moabite, a Hittite, and a Jebusite walk into a bar and sit down next to an Israeli Jew and an Arab Palestinian. How do we distinguish between the five persons seated at the table? Which of these five identities have the right to self-determination and why?

Do you find this unacceptable and a war crime?

'It's a Killing Field': IDF Soldiers Ordered to Shoot Deliberately at Unarmed Gazans Waiting for Humanitarian Aid​

Nir HassonYaniv KubovichBar Peleg
Jun 27, 2025 6:03 am IDT


Israeli soldiers in Gaza told Haaretz that the army has deliberately fired at Palestinians near aid distribution sites over the past
IDF soldiers ordered to shoot deliberately at unarmed Gazans waiting for humanitarian aid

 

[GLASNOST]

Do you find this unacceptable and a war crime?

Obviously.

 

[gipper]

Obviously.

I know you find it unacceptable, but does the fanatical Zionist Shusha?

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Do you find this unacceptable and a war crime?

'It's a Killing Field': IDF Soldiers Ordered to Shoot Deliberately at Unarmed Gazans Waiting for Humanitarian Aid​

Nir HassonYaniv KubovichBar Peleg
Jun 27, 2025 6:03 am IDT


Israeli soldiers in Gaza told Haaretz that the army has deliberately fired at Palestinians near aid distribution sites over the past
IDF soldiers ordered to shoot deliberately at unarmed Gazans waiting for humanitarian aid

Are the Hamas terrorists...err...unarmed Gazans ok?

 

[GLASNOST]

I know you find it unacceptable, but does the fanatical Zionist Shusha?

No, he thinks it's wonderful.

 

[gipper]

No, he thinks it's wonderful.

Most likely you’re right.

I assumed Shusha is female, not that it matters.

 

[GLASNOST]

Most likely you’re right.

For sure.

I assumed Shusha is female

Oh well.

 

[Shusha]

Do you find this unacceptable and a war crime?

'It's a Killing Field': IDF Soldiers Ordered to Shoot Deliberately at Unarmed Gazans Waiting for Humanitarian Aid​

Nir HassonYaniv KubovichBar Peleg
Jun 27, 2025 6:03 am IDT


Israeli soldiers in Gaza told Haaretz that the army has deliberately fired at Palestinians near aid distribution sites over the past
IDF soldiers ordered to shoot deliberately at unarmed Gazans waiting for humanitarian aid

Article is paywalled. I've been trying to find out what is going on at the humanitarian aid sites around Gaza (GHF and others) and the reports I've found all seem sketch AF. I haven't been able to sort out the truth. I'll take a look again this morning.

What I can read from the title is the accusation is that IDF soldiers have been instructed and are obeying the instructions to shoot and kill innocent unarmed civilians, taking no account as to who they target, including women and children. Netanyahu and the Defense Minister claim this is false and a blood libel. Apparently, there is an investigation with Southern Command.

For me, I find the very idea preposterous. It would serve no purpose for the IDF to randomly kill civilians at food distribution sites. And the IDF simply does not intentionally kill civilians.

Here's my answer to the question posed of me: Yes, a policy of shooting civilians seeking humanitarian aid is unacceptable and a war crime. It should be condemned.

 

[Shusha]

Most likely you’re right.

I assumed Shusha is female, not that it matters.

Shusha is indeed female.

 

[gipper]

Article is paywalled. I've been trying to find out what is going on at the humanitarian aid sites around Gaza (GHF and others) and the reports I've found all seem sketch AF. I haven't been able to sort out the truth. I'll take a look again this morning.

What I can read from the title is the accusation is that IDF soldiers have been instructed and are obeying the instructions to shoot and kill innocent unarmed civilians, taking no account as to who they target, including women and children. Netanyahu and the Defense Minister claim this is false and a blood libel. Apparently, there is an investigation with Southern Command.

For me, I find the very idea preposterous. It would serve no purpose for the IDF to randomly kill civilians at food distribution sites. And the IDF simply does not intentionally kill civilians.

Here's my answer to the question posed of me: Yes, a policy of shooting civilians seeking humanitarian aid is unacceptable and a war crime. It should be condemned.

Lol. Yet the IDF has randomly murdered tens of thousands.

You aren’t informed.

 

[Shusha]

Lol. Yet the IDF has randomly murdered tens of thousands.

The IDF does not intentionally target civilians.

 

[gipper]

The IDF does not intentionally target civilians.

You’re delusional. Zionism does that to people.

Stop trolling.

 

[Shusha]

gipper

Alright. I have now had the chance to read over several accounts of the breaking story and it is starting to make a whole lot more sense.

Some key takeaways:

• It does not appear that the IDF was explicitly informed of a policy of targeting and shooting civilians (duh)
• It does appear that the IDF may have been directed to use "warning shots" to direct or disperse the crowd during times when a distribution site was not in operation
• If the above is true, the IDF is using lethal methods for crowd control
• If the above is true, Southern Command has some 'splaining to do
• There have been 19 incidents in the past ~30 days with IDF involvement. Not all of these incidents took place at GHF sites and some incidents were responses to armed gunmen attempting to seize aid (Hamas, or possibly one of the tribal or family groups of enforcers attempting to seize some sort of control)
• The total number of deaths and injuries remains unconfirmed, but at least some incidents report multiple casualties
• It does seem likely, and there is evidence for, at least some instances also involving Hamas or other armed groups seizing or attempting to seize or control aid distribution
• The Military Advocate General's Office is investigating as per the General Staff Fact-Finding Assessment Mechanism, and if reports are true, the MAGO is PISSED!

Listen carefully, because I have assessed the available evidence and I'm going to tell you the truth about what I think. You have accused me of being insane and of blindly following Zionist bullshit. Here it is. In the absence of any new evidence to the contrary, in which case I reserve the right to reassess, this available evidence leads me to strongly believe that the specific actions and policy of the IDF in using lethal force for crowd control should be investigated as a war crime. In particular, the IDF seems to have failed to properly make a distinction between combat zones and humanitarian zones.

It seems to me that we are at a transition point in the war where the situation on the ground requires a police force rather than a military one. The IDF may be ill-equipped to fulfill that role, especially with remnants of Hamas and emerging tribal armed groups competing for control. (Honestly, I had hoped they would do better and am more than a little disappointed, even while acknowledging the complexity on the ground.)

I don't expect gipper to engage much in this conversation beyond his usual insults, but if anyone else wants to poke holes in my assessment, I'd welcome intelligent conversation.