Haaretz: Israel Really Portrays Itself as "Israel At War" Rather Than in the Middle of a Mass Slaughter of Women & Children in Gaza

[Grau]

End time prophecy has the Jews drawing the other Israelite nations (the WASP democracies) into a fiery conflagration. If Israel is severely threatened, we will certainly be drawn in. See Ezekiel 5.

Thanks for the clarification.

Yes, Im familiar with the apocalyptic literature in Ezekiel and for over 50 years have felt that the parasitic Israeli lobbies who dominate America's Middle East Policy making will continue to manipulate and exploit America's taxpayers and Military into fighting for Israel's regional hegemony (i.e. "Greater Israel") until we are surprised one day to be significantly affected by long overdue Blowback.

They've done it before and they'll keep doing it until....

“QUIETLY LOBBYING CONGRESS TO APPROVE THE USE OF FORCE IN IRAQ WAS ONE OF AIPAC’S SUCCESSES OVER THE PAST YEAR.”
AIPAC Executive Director Howard Kohr; N.Y. Sun, Jan. 2003

-----------------------------------------------

Please remember:

“Every time anyone says that Israel is our only friend in the Middle East, I can’t help but think that before Israel, we had no enemies in the Middle East.”
– John Sheehan, Society of Jesus. (Jesuit priest)

-------------------------------------------------

Finally:

“Once we squeeze all we can out of the United States, it can dry up and blow away.” - Benjamin Netanyahu

From: “Stupid pro-Israel Americans - have you heard these quotes from your hero Netanyahu? See below?”

Yahoo Search - Web Search

The search engine that helps you find exactly what you're looking for. Find the most relevant information, video, images, and answers from all across the Web.

answers.yahoo.com

Thanks,

 

[Woodznutz]

Thanks for the clarification.

Yes, Im familiar with the apocalyptic literature in Ezekiel and for over 50 years have felt that the parasitic Israeli lobbies who dominate America's Middle East Policy making will continue to manipulate and exploit America's taxpayers and Military into fighting for Israel's regional hegemony (i.e. "Greater Israel") until we are surprised one day to be significantly affected by long overdue Blowback.

They've done it before and they'll keep doing it until....

“QUIETLY LOBBYING CONGRESS TO APPROVE THE USE OF FORCE IN IRAQ WAS ONE OF AIPAC’S SUCCESSES OVER THE PAST YEAR.”
AIPAC Executive Director Howard Kohr; N.Y. Sun, Jan. 2003

-----------------------------------------------

Please remember:

“Every time anyone says that Israel is our only friend in the Middle East, I can’t help but think that before Israel, we had no enemies in the Middle East.”
– John Sheehan, Society of Jesus. (Jesuit priest)

-------------------------------------------------

Finally:

“Once we squeeze all we can out of the United States, it can dry up and blow away.” - Benjamin Netanyahu

From: “Stupid pro-Israel Americans - have you heard these quotes from your hero Netanyahu? See below?”

Yahoo Search - Web Search

The search engine that helps you find exactly what you're looking for. Find the most relevant information, video, images, and answers from all across the Web.

answers.yahoo.com

Thanks,

Many Jews believe the gentile world is meant to serve them and that they will rule the world when their messiah comes.

 

[Shusha]

The practice of having a hostile Israeli government with an objective of killing / expelling Gaza's residents in control of relief efforts is ripe for abuse.

I'd argue that this is where your judgement may be clouded. If your base belief is that Israel has the "objective of killing / expelling Gaza's residents", then you are trying to fit observations and evidence to belief, rather than allowing observations and evidence to inform your beliefs.

Finally, I've mentioned that I believe we both would like a peaceful, just and durable solution that is essential for Israel's future security and that of former Palestine's non Jewish residents.

We agree.

In addition to my empathy for Gaza's long tormented residents, I am also concerned about the growing anti Jewish / anti Israeli sentiment around the world that is fueled by ...

As am I. For this reason, it is important to have calm, rational, well-investigated discussions such as this one rather than repeat lies, falsehoods, exaggerations, blood libels, and conveniently appealing death chants.

 

[Shusha]

I even remember orders to fire warning shots while in Laos / Vietnam long ago.
Our training was to fire warning shots into the air or nearby ground ...

Yes, this is exactly what the anonymous IDF solider reported in the Haaretz article said. They were instructed to fire warning shots (in the air, or at the ground in front of, or behind, the civilians) as a method of crowd control. This is not a contradiction. This is what the IDF soldier reported.

The difference is simply that when ethical and professional soldiers fire warning shots, there are either no or far fewer casualties.

Possibly. But would you concede that armed Hamas members, and other armed groups, are also present, or might possibly be present, embedded in the civilian population? Would you concede that this further complicates the situation? Would you concede that this both creates the legitimate requirement for lethal force, and a potential for increase in error when attempting to make a distinction between armed militia and civilians?

Even if you dispute the reports of about 500 deaths and about 2,000 wounded

I do. They are Hamas reported numbers, and I certainly don't expect Hamas to accurately report when their military operatives murder their own civilians with a goal of preventing them from accessing the aid, or pressuring Israel to shut down the aid distribution sites. They have a motivation to regain control of the aid.

Re: #1 Multiple reports other than the Haaretz article, IDF confessions, CCTV recordings, testimony from Medical Personnel, GHF workers and the UN all report IDF firing at hungry civilians attempting to get food.

Re: sources, again.

The Haaretz article is not a source. The source is anonymous IDF soldiers (2?) and their quotes (in the original Hebrew).

CCTV recordings. These have been released by the GHF? Color me shocked. Can you provide a link to any of these CCTV recordings, please?

Medical Personnel. I do not find these reliable. Medical personnel can determine the cause of death or injury, but it is impossible for medical personnel to discern or verify the circumstances or events leading to the death or injury. Additionally, there are known instances of medical personnel creating false records or otherwise falsifying their statements.

GHF workers. The source is one GHF worker (disgruntled according to his employer) and his quotes. His language echoes that of the IDF soldiers and specifically uses the term "warning shots".

I don't believe you posted a link to a UN report (apologies if I missed it). The relevant report I was able to locate only repeats Hamas' GMoH numbers and provides no further evidence. Not a source.


In conclusion, I do not find your argument compelling that the IDF has a policy of instructing those guarding the perimeter and combat zones surrounding the aid distribution sites to target and "shoot to kill" civilians who pose no threat.

 

[gipper]

Yes, this is exactly what the anonymous IDF solider reported in the Haaretz article said. They were instructed to fire warning shots (in the air, or at the ground in front of, or behind, the civilians) as a method of crowd control. This is not a contradiction. This is what the IDF soldier reported.


Possibly. But would you concede that armed Hamas members, and other armed groups, are also present, or might possibly be present, embedded in the civilian population? Would you concede that this further complicates the situation? Would you concede that this both creates the legitimate requirement for lethal force, and a potential for increase in error when attempting to make a distinction between armed militia and civilians?

I do. They are Hamas reported numbers, and I certainly don't expect Hamas to accurately report when their military operatives murder their own civilians with a goal of preventing them from accessing the aid, or pressuring Israel to shut down the aid distribution sites. They have a motivation to regain control of the aid.

Re: sources, again.

The Haaretz article is not a source. The source is anonymous IDF soldiers (2?) and their quotes (in the original Hebrew).

CCTV recordings. These have been released by the GHF? Color me shocked. Can you provide a link to any of these CCTV recordings, please?

Medical Personnel. I do not find these reliable. Medical personnel can determine the cause of death or injury, but it is impossible for medical personnel to discern or verify the circumstances or events leading to the death or injury. Additionally, there are known instances of medical personnel creating false records or otherwise falsifying their statements.

GHF workers. The source is one GHF worker (disgruntled according to his employer) and his quotes. His language echoes that of the IDF soldiers and specifically uses the term "warning shots".

I don't believe you posted a link to a UN report (apologies if I missed it). The relevant report I was able to locate only repeats Hamas' GMoH numbers and provides no further evidence. Not a source.


In conclusion, I do not find your argument compelling that the IDF has a policy of instructing those guarding the perimeter and combat zones surrounding the aid distribution sites to target and "shoot to kill" civilians who pose no threat.

She is absolutely correct. You are on the wrong side of history, just as Hitler’s Nazis were.

Welcome to the empire, where peace activists are called terrorists, where hospitals are called military bases, where facts are called blood libel, where people opposing genocide are called hateful Nazis, where genocidal soldiers are a protected group and chanting for their death is a hate crime. - Caitlin Johnstone.

 

[Grau]

I'd argue that this is where your judgement may be clouded. If your base belief is that Israel has the "objective of killing / expelling Gaza's residents", then you are trying to fit observations and evidence to belief, rather than allowing observations and evidence to inform your beliefs.

We agree.

As am I. For this reason, it is important to have calm, rational, well-investigated discussions such as this one rather than repeat lies, falsehoods, exaggerations, blood libels, and conveniently appealing death chants.

I remember that virtually all of my friends questioned the soundness of my judgement when I left Munich to hitch hike around the Middle East with little money, a small pack and sleeping bag with no particular schedule.

Much, much later, I wouldn't trade what I learned and saw during that time for anything.

I should have been more specific concerning the decades old, expressed desire of right wing Zionists to kill or expel Palestine's native residents.

No I don't think that all Israelis want to annex Gaza and expel its residents but Israel's militant, right wing "Settlers" clearly welcome the idea that goes back to Theodore Herzl

For example:

"We walked outside, Ben-Gurion accompanying us. Allon repeated his question, What is to be done with the Palestinian population?' Ben-Gurion waved his hand in a gesture which said 'Drive them out!"
-- Yitzhak Rabin, leaked censored version of Rabin
memoirs, published in the New York Times, 23 October 1979.

""[We Zionists will] spirit the penniless population across the border [of the Jewish state] by denying it employment ... Both the process of expropriation [theft of land] and the removal [ethnic cleansing] of the poor must be carried out discreetly and circumspectly."—Theodore Herzl, founder of the World Zionist Organization, speaking of the racist expulsion of Palestinian Arabs, in his diary on June 12, 1895"

• "It is the duty of Israeli leaders to explain to public opinion, clearly and courageously, a certain number of facts that are forgotten with time. The first of these is that there is no Zionism, colonialization, or Jewish State without the eviction of the Arabs and the expropriation of their lands." (from Agence France Presse, November 15, 1998)
• Ariel Sharon, Prime Minister of Israel (2001-2006)

Then, there are similar declarations by Netanyahu, Ben Gvir, Gallant, Smotrich etc that are more recent.

Next, I based my opinion on numerous reports like the following:

- “Officials: Israel plans to seize Gaza”

“Authorities approve operation to displace Palestinians to south”

Officials: Israel plans to seize Gaza

TEL AVIV, Israel — Israel approved plans Monday to seize the Gaza Strip and to stay in the Palestinian territory for an unspecified amount of time, two Israeli officials said,

news.lee.net

EXCERPT “Israel approved plans Monday to seize the Gaza Strip and to stay in the Palestinian territory for an unspecified amount of time, two Israeli officials said, a move that, if implemented, would vastly expand Israel's operations there and likely draw fierce international opposition.

The new plan, which was approved in an early morning vote by Israeli Cabinet ministers, also calls for hundreds of thousands of Palestinians to move to Gaza's south. That would likely amount to their forcible displacement and exacerbate an already dire humanitarian crisis.” CONTINUED

- "Israel's plan for Gaza is clear: 'Conquest, expulsion, settlement"​

"Facts on the ground and its leaders' own words bear this out. The question is, how much will be shepherded by Washington?"

Israel's plan for Gaza is clear: 'Conquest, expulsion, settlement'

Facts on the ground and its leaders' own words bear this out. The question is, how much will be shepherded by Washington?

responsiblestatecraft.org

- "Israel’s far-right wants to move Palestinians out of Gaza. Its ideas are gaining attention"​

https://www.cnn.com/2024/01/17/middleeast/israel-far-right-gaza-settler-movement-cmd-intl

EXCERPT "The Israeli soldiers stand rifles in hand, arm over shoulder, speaking to the camera. Behind them is the shell of a Gazan building.

“We are here adding light after the black sabbath that the people of Israel had,” one of the men says in the video, circulating on Telegram. “We are occupying, deporting, and settling. Occupying, deporting, and settling. Did you hear that Bibi? Occupying, deporting, and settling.” CONTINUED

- "Israeli ministers call for immediate plan to expel Palestinians from Gaza"​

"Finance Minister Bezalel Smotrich urges Israel to ‘literally unleash hell’ on Gaza"​

Israeli ministers call for immediate plan to expel Palestinians from Gaza

Finance Minister Bezalel Smotrich urges Israel to ‘literally unleash hell’ on Gaza - Anadolu Ajansı

www.aa.com.tr

EXCERPT "Israeli government ministers called on Tuesday for the immediate implementation of a plan to expel Palestinians from the Gaza Strip.

In a post on his X account, Communications Minister Shlomo Karhi demanded the swift execution of the Palestinian displacement plan and cutting electricity and water supplies to the enclave." CONTINUED
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
[ For some reason the fonts are locked on bold now]
Based on just what I've posted, do you see why a reasonable person would believe that Israel's current right wing government officials want Gaza's residents either dead or gone?
Re:

As am I. For this reason, it is important to have calm, rational, well-investigated discussions such as this one rather than repeat lies, falsehoods, exaggerations, blood libels, and conveniently appealing death chants.

I hope that you will believe that I do not make statements that I know to be false on purpose.
Yes, many times I do wax hyperbolic and I frequently respond to snarky and insulting comments with unflattering remarks but, overall, I try to avoid assuming negative intent.

I'll respond to your other comment later.

Thanks,

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

I remember that virtually all of my friends questioned the soundness of my judgement when I left Munich to hitch hike around the Middle East with little money, a small pack and sleeping bag with no particular schedule.

Much, much later, I wouldn't trade what I learned and saw during that time for anything.

I should have been more specific concerning the decades old, expressed desire of right wing Zionists to kill or expel Palestine's native residents.

No I don't think that all Israelis want to annex Gaza and expel its residents but Israel's militant, right wing "Settlers" clearly welcome the idea that goes back to Theodore Herzl

For example:

"We walked outside, Ben-Gurion accompanying us. Allon repeated his question, What is to be done with the Palestinian population?' Ben-Gurion waved his hand in a gesture which said 'Drive them out!"
-- Yitzhak Rabin, leaked censored version of Rabin
memoirs, published in the New York Times, 23 October 1979.

""[We Zionists will] spirit the penniless population across the border [of the Jewish state] by denying it employment ... Both the process of expropriation [theft of land] and the removal [ethnic cleansing] of the poor must be carried out discreetly and circumspectly."—Theodore Herzl, founder of the World Zionist Organization, speaking of the racist expulsion of Palestinian Arabs, in his diary on June 12, 1895"

• "It is the duty of Israeli leaders to explain to public opinion, clearly and courageously, a certain number of facts that are forgotten with time. The first of these is that there is no Zionism, colonialization, or Jewish State without the eviction of the Arabs and the expropriation of their lands." (from Agence France Presse, November 15, 1998)
• Ariel Sharon, Prime Minister of Israel (2001-2006)

Then, there are similar declarations by Netanyahu, Ben Gvir, Gallant, Smotrich etc that are more recent.

Next, I based my opinion on numerous reports like the following:

- “Officials: Israel plans to seize Gaza”

“Authorities approve operation to displace Palestinians to south”

Officials: Israel plans to seize Gaza

TEL AVIV, Israel — Israel approved plans Monday to seize the Gaza Strip and to stay in the Palestinian territory for an unspecified amount of time, two Israeli officials said,

news.lee.net

EXCERPT “Israel approved plans Monday to seize the Gaza Strip and to stay in the Palestinian territory for an unspecified amount of time, two Israeli officials said, a move that, if implemented, would vastly expand Israel's operations there and likely draw fierce international opposition.

The new plan, which was approved in an early morning vote by Israeli Cabinet ministers, also calls for hundreds of thousands of Palestinians to move to Gaza's south. That would likely amount to their forcible displacement and exacerbate an already dire humanitarian crisis.” CONTINUED

- "Israel's plan for Gaza is clear: 'Conquest, expulsion, settlement"​

"Facts on the ground and its leaders' own words bear this out. The question is, how much will be shepherded by Washington?"

Israel's plan for Gaza is clear: 'Conquest, expulsion, settlement'

Facts on the ground and its leaders' own words bear this out. The question is, how much will be shepherded by Washington?

responsiblestatecraft.org

- "Israel’s far-right wants to move Palestinians out of Gaza. Its ideas are gaining attention"​

https://www.cnn.com/2024/01/17/middleeast/israel-far-right-gaza-settler-movement-cmd-intl

EXCERPT "The Israeli soldiers stand rifles in hand, arm over shoulder, speaking to the camera. Behind them is the shell of a Gazan building.

“We are here adding light after the black sabbath that the people of Israel had,” one of the men says in the video, circulating on Telegram. “We are occupying, deporting, and settling. Occupying, deporting, and settling. Did you hear that Bibi? Occupying, deporting, and settling.” CONTINUED

- "Israeli ministers call for immediate plan to expel Palestinians from Gaza"​

"Finance Minister Bezalel Smotrich urges Israel to ‘literally unleash hell’ on Gaza"​

Israeli ministers call for immediate plan to expel Palestinians from Gaza

Finance Minister Bezalel Smotrich urges Israel to ‘literally unleash hell’ on Gaza - Anadolu Ajansı

www.aa.com.tr

EXCERPT "Israeli government ministers called on Tuesday for the immediate implementation of a plan to expel Palestinians from the Gaza Strip.

In a post on his X account, Communications Minister Shlomo Karhi demanded the swift execution of the Palestinian displacement plan and cutting electricity and water supplies to the enclave." CONTINUED
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
[ For some reason the fonts are locked on bold now]
Based on just what I've posted, do you see why a reasonable person would believe that Israel's current right wing government officials want Gaza's residents either dead or gone?
Re:


I hope that you will believe that I do not make statements that I know to be false on purpose.
Yes, many times I do wax hyperbolic and I frequently respond to snarky and insulting comments with unflattering remarks but, overall, I try to avoid assuming negative intent.

I'll respond to your other comment later.

Thanks,

I should have been more specific concerning the decades old, expressed desire of right wing Zionists to kill or expel Palestine's native residents.

What about the desire of radical Islamists to kill all the infidels, worldwide?

 

[Shusha]

I should have been more specific concerning the decades old, expressed desire of right wing Zionists to kill or expel Palestine's native residents.

No I don't think that all Israelis want to annex Gaza and expel its residents but Israel's militant, right wing "Settlers" clearly welcome the idea

Thank you. I appreciate that.

I think it is important to clearly differentiate between four VERY different concepts, rather than make broad accusations.

Genocide (extermination of the Palestinian people, in whole or in part)
Voluntary emigration
Expulsion
Application of sovereignty (not annexation, you can't annex your own sovereign territory)

I also think it is important to clearly differentiate which specific people or group you are referencing.

The Jewish people as a whole (as an ethnic and cultural identity)
Israelis
A specific subset of Israelis (describe)
The current government of Israel, as policy
Factions or individuals within the government of Israel who may, or may not, represent broad Israeli opinion

I would reject the term "Zionist" for this list, as it has little use or meaning. It would be preferrable to use a term which is more specific in meaning. Such as: "those Israelis who reject Arab self-determination in the (remaining) Mandate Palestine territories". Or "River to the Sea Israelis". Or "Resistance Israelis". Take your pick, or come up with one of your own.

 

[Grau]

I should have been more specific concerning the decades old, expressed desire of right wing Zionists to kill or expel Palestine's native residents.

What about the desire of radical Islamists to kill all the infidels, worldwide?

As an infrequent church going Episcopalian / "infidel", I spent 10 - 11 months being treated wonderfully by what you consider "radical Islamists" (i.e. all Muslims).

I just had a sleeping bag and spent nights in parks, around mosques, archeological sites, in the middle of the Trans Syrian desert and in the homes / tents of "radical Islamists" who gave me rides, treated me to tea and / or meals.

Plenty of those "radical Islamists" had countless opportunities to kill me but didn't.

I wonder why it is that people who have never been to the Middle East and never met any of its residents feel compelled to slander them?

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

As an infrequent church going Episcopalian / "infidel", I spent 10 - 11 months being treated wonderfully by what you consider "radical Islamists" (i.e. all Muslims).

I just had a sleeping bag and spent nights in parks, around mosques, archeological sites, in the middle of the Trans Syrian desert and in the homes / tents of "radical Islamists" who gave me rides, treated me to tea and / or meals.

Plenty of those "radical Islamists" had countless opportunities to kill me but didn't.

I wonder why it is that people who have never been to the Middle East and never met any of its residents feel compelled to slander them?

As an infrequent church going Episcopalian / "infidel", I spent 10 - 11 months being treated wonderfully by what you consider "radical Islamists" (i.e. all Muslims).

Which ones lately?

Any ISIS or Hamas visits lately?

 

[Grau]

As an infrequent church going Episcopalian / "infidel", I spent 10 - 11 months being treated wonderfully by what you consider "radical Islamists" (i.e. all Muslims).

Which ones lately?

Any ISIS or Hamas visits lately?

Why are you trying so hard to slander people you've never met and about whom you seem to know nothing?

Are you evading discussion of the topic at hand because you can't refute the fact that the Haaretz characterization is accurate?

"Haaretz: Israel Really Portrays Itself as "Israel At War" Rather Than in the Middle of a Mass Slaughter of Women & Children in Gaza"​

How can you call such a lop sided slaughter of mainly women and children a "war" when only one side has a foreign supplied tanks, a Navy, nukes and military aircraft that it uses to target and murder unarmed, sick, traumatized and starving refugees?

For example:

“Israeli airstrikes kill 14; ceasefire efforts show hope”

Page B1

View the Richmond Times-Dispatch for Sunday, July 6, 2025

richmond.com

EXCERPT “Israeli airstrikes struck tents in the crowded Muwasi area on Gaza's Mediterranean coast, killing seven people including a Palestinian doctor and his three children, according to Nasser Hospital in the southern city of Khan Younis.

Four others were killed in the town of Bani Suheila in southern Gaza. Three people were killed in three strikes in Khan Younis.” CONTINUED

Re:

Which ones lately?

Any ISIS or Hamas visits lately?

Please clarify.

Which "ones" of what: Countries, Political groups etc ?

Visits by ISIS or Hamas or visits to ISIS and Hamas?

By now, most people know that Israel's Right Wing element helped establish Hamas to help foment Civil War among Palestine's native residents just as the establishment of ISIS was a predictable consequence of the AIPAC driven war on Iraq.(*)

“QUIETLY LOBBYING CONGRESS TO APPROVE THE USE OF FORCE IN IRAQ WAS ONE OF AIPAC’S SUCCESSES OVER THE PAST YEAR.”
AIPAC Executive Director Howard Kohr; N.Y. Sun, Jan. 2003

(*). "BLOWBACK: HOW ISIS WAS CREATED BY THE U.S. INVASION OF IRAQ"​

Blowback: How ISIS Was Created by the U.S. Invasion of Iraq

In the second episode of his six-part series on blowback, Mehdi Hasan shows how George W. Bush's decision to invade Iraq led to the birth of ISIS.

theintercept.com

EXCERPT "Had it not been for Bush’s catastrophic decision to invade and occupy Iraq in 2003, in defiance of international law, the world’s most feared terrorist group would not exist today. ISIS is blowback." CONTINUED

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Why are you trying so hard to slander people you've never met and about whom you seem to know nothing?

Are you evading discussion of the topic at hand because you can't refute the fact that the Haaretz characterization is accurate?

"Haaretz: Israel Really Portrays Itself as "Israel At War" Rather Than in the Middle of a Mass Slaughter of Women & Children in Gaza"​

How can you call such a lop sided slaughter of mainly women and children a "war" when only one side has a foreign supplied tanks, a Navy, nukes and military aircraft that it uses to target and murder unarmed, sick, traumatized and starving refugees?

For example:

“Israeli airstrikes kill 14; ceasefire efforts show hope”

Page B1

View the Richmond Times-Dispatch for Sunday, July 6, 2025

richmond.com

EXCERPT “Israeli airstrikes struck tents in the crowded Muwasi area on Gaza's Mediterranean coast, killing seven people including a Palestinian doctor and his three children, according to Nasser Hospital in the southern city of Khan Younis.

Four others were killed in the town of Bani Suheila in southern Gaza. Three people were killed in three strikes in Khan Younis.” CONTINUED

Re:


Please clarify.

Which "ones" of what: Countries, Political groups etc ?

Visits by ISIS or Hamas or visits to ISIS and Hamas?

By now, most people know that Israel's Right Wing element helped establish Hamas to help foment Civil War among Palestine's native residents just as the establishment of ISIS was a predictable consequence of the AIPAC driven war on Iraq.(*)

“QUIETLY LOBBYING CONGRESS TO APPROVE THE USE OF FORCE IN IRAQ WAS ONE OF AIPAC’S SUCCESSES OVER THE PAST YEAR.”
AIPAC Executive Director Howard Kohr; N.Y. Sun, Jan. 2003

(*). "BLOWBACK: HOW ISIS WAS CREATED BY THE U.S. INVASION OF IRAQ"​

Blowback: How ISIS Was Created by the U.S. Invasion of Iraq

In the second episode of his six-part series on blowback, Mehdi Hasan shows how George W. Bush's decision to invade Iraq led to the birth of ISIS.

theintercept.com

EXCERPT "Had it not been for Bush’s catastrophic decision to invade and occupy Iraq in 2003, in defiance of international law, the world’s most feared terrorist group would not exist today. ISIS is blowback." CONTINUED

Why are you trying so hard to slander people you've never met and about whom you seem to know nothing?

I would never slander murderous Muslim extremists.

How can you call such a lop sided slaughter of mainly women and children a "war"

Who claimed it was mainly women and children?

What would be a fair number of deaths when Hamas is hiding with, behind and under civilians?

 

[Grau]

Thank you. I appreciate that.

I think it is important to clearly differentiate between four VERY different concepts, rather than make broad accusations.

Genocide (extermination of the Palestinian people, in whole or in part)
Voluntary emigration
Expulsion
Application of sovereignty (not annexation, you can't annex your own sovereign territory)

I also think it is important to clearly differentiate which specific people or group you are referencing.

The Jewish people as a whole (as an ethnic and cultural identity)
Israelis
A specific subset of Israelis (describe)
The current government of Israel, as policy
Factions or individuals within the government of Israel who may, or may not, represent broad Israeli opinion

I would reject the term "Zionist" for this list, as it has little use or meaning. It would be preferrable to use a term which is more specific in meaning. Such as: "those Israelis who reject Arab self-determination in the (remaining) Mandate Palestine territories". Or "River to the Sea Israelis". Or "Resistance Israelis". Take your pick, or come up with one of your own.

Sorry for the delay; I try to respond all civil and substantive comments but cancer etc slows me down....go figure.

I agree that it's important to be as specific as possible when describing who is doing what to whom.

The term "Genocide" is used by most Americans to characterize when the Netanyahu government (Ben Gvir, Gallant, Smotrich etc) and I feel like is an accurate characterization as to what is being done on former Palestine.

Re:

Application of sovereignty (not annexation, you can't annex your own sovereign territory)

What makes this application difficult is that Israel was artificially created by foreign Colonial Powers.
It would not exist without the machinations of Germany's National Socialists, Zionist lobbies in London, America $ Trillions and other foreign interests.

Re:

I also think it is important to clearly differentiate which specific people or group you are referencing.

Again, I agree. As you know, many Jews are strongly against the establishment of a Jewish state. I can only support the existence of Israel as long as its borders are mutually agreed upon and consistent with international law. I cannot support a "Mad Dog" government as per Moshe Dayan etc:

"Israel must be like a mad dog, too dangerous to bother."

Moshe Dayan

Moshe Dayan Quote

Israel must be like a mad dog, too dangerous to bother.

www.azquotes.com

Re:

I would reject the term "Zionist" for this list, as it has little use or meaning.

If we are to reject terms that have little use of meaning, it seems that the grossly overused "anti Semite" would also be a prime candidate.
Any term can be meaningless such as "Nazi" which is applied far too recklessly.

I believe you have characterized your views as Zionist which, like many beliefs can be benign (i.e. pure Communism, pure Socialism etc need not always be malevolent such as Tito's "Communist" Yugoslavia.

Would you agree that terms like: ""those Israelis who reject Arab self-determination in the (remaining) Mandate Palestine territories"." are a little cumbersome especially for Forum use.

Finally, I agree that it is important to use accurate terms that are as precise as is practical.
I understand that the term "Zionist" has negative connotations due to Zionists who were aggressive, violent and racist but simply to support the existence of a Jewish state need not be malevolent when it does not adversely affect non Zionists.

I am naturally curious as to why you hold the views that you do especially since you live in Canada.

Thanks,

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

What makes this application difficult is that Israel was artificially created by foreign Colonial Powers.

Like all the other nations that were created after World War I.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

The term "Genocide" is used by most Americans to characterize when the Netanyahu government (Ben Gvir, Gallant, Smotrich etc) and I feel like is an accurate characterization as to what is being done on former Palestine.

Just the morons use that term.

 

[Shusha]

Sorry for the delay; I try to respond all civil and substantive comments but cancer etc slows me down....go figure.

No worries. Take your time. I would much rather wait a day, or two, or three, or more and have a respectful conversation than shoot insults and one-liners multiple times a day.

The term "Genocide" is used by most Americans to characterize when the Netanyahu government (Ben Gvir, Gallant, Smotrich etc) and I feel like is an accurate characterization as to what is being done on former Palestine.

"Genocide" is a legal term with a real definitional legal meaning. The term is not something that can be "characterized" nor something that arises from "feelings".

My concern with expanding the perimeters of legal language terms like "genocide", "occupation", "apartheid" is that it permits Israel (and it always seems to be Israel, doesn't it) to be accused of acts it has not, in point of fact, committed.

Example: Ireland has requested of the UN and the ICJ to "to broaden its interpretation of what constitutes the commission of genocide by a state". This is an admission that Israel's policies and acts in this particular armed conflict DO NOT MEET the criteria for a legal finding of "genocide". It is further an admission that Ireland (and others) can not find Israel guilty of an existing crime, thus it will create one in order to ensure Israel is guilty of a crime. The inadmissibility of retroactive legislation is firmly entrenched in international law. It is especially egregious when the newly-created definition is to be specifically designed to attach itself to the specific acts committed by Israel. In other words, whatever it is that Israel has done is illegal.

And let's take this to its logical conclusion. What would the new definition be? ALL countries would be required to adhere to this new legal definition.

I might also touch on the how the softening of the language waters down and minimalizes the crime of genocide, questioning the need for it in the first place. If there is no definitional difference between armed conflict and genocide, why do we need a special word for genocide? The whole point of the development of the terminology is to address this particular crime as more significant.

I understand your need to use strong language in your condemnation of Israel. But condemning a state, or any group, of something they HAVE NOT DONE is the definition of a "blood libel".

What makes this application difficult is that Israel was artificially created by foreign Colonial Powers.

Israel was created through the exact same mechanisms as Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, Iraq. It was a (successful) movement for the self-determination of a specific ethnic group, at a time when global influence was transitioning away from Empires (including the Ottoman) and towards local self-governance.

I can only support the existence of Israel as long as its borders are mutually agreed upon and consistent with international law.

Israel has borders which are consistent with international law. Done and dusted. I agree WHOLEHEARTEDLY that should any new borders be drawn between Israel and a potential new state of Palestine the ONLY way to legally do so is through mutual agreement and a treaty. More people (I'm looking at you, UN and ICJ) should adopt this view, as it is the only legally correct one.

If we are to reject terms that have little use of meaning, it seems that the grossly overused "anti Semite" would also be a prime candidate.

Would you be surprised to know that I agree? You will notice I do not engage with that terminology (acknowledging there may be rare exceptions, but I don't think so). Instead, I refer to specific language or acts as language or acts of antisemitism. I'm fine with not using it in our conversations.

Any term can be meaningless such as "Nazi" which is applied far too recklessly.

Could not agree more.

Would you agree that terms like: ""those Israelis who reject Arab self-determination in the (remaining) Mandate Palestine territories"." are a little cumbersome especially for Forum use.

Sure. But we could short form it for the purposes of our conversations. RtS Israelis. RtS Arabs. Meaning: those who believe, as a matter of principle and not pragmatism, that the territory must not be divided from the River to the Sea and reject the self-determination of the other on that territory.

I am naturally curious as to why you hold the views that you do especially since you live in Canada.

I have adopted the Jewish people as my own, and (at least some) have kindly adopted me. My location in Canada (which I would prefer not to publicly reveal) is very pro-Israel. Many, many more "We Stand with Israel" events than "Free Palestine" protests. And our Jewish community has strong ties, mutual respect, recognition with other religious, ethnic, and indigenous groups.

 

[Ringo]

 

[Grau]

I think that you're on to something.

At some point some country or group of countries will be entirely justified in putting a muzzle on the "Mad Dog" Netanyahu government.

The potential Blowback from relentless Zionist genocide and aggression grows more severe with every day's massacre or unprovoked attack.

Thanks,

 

[gipper]

He’s right.