GW, NAtional Guard, top of list with NO influence? right.

[DKSuddeth]

Who truly believes that President Bush made the top of the national guard list with an entrance score of 25 (the minimum) and he did it without any influence whatsoever?

 

[rtwngAvngr]

 

[dmp]

entrace score on what?

 

[CSM]

Who truly believes that President Bush made the top of the national guard list with an entrance score of 25 (the minimum) and he did it without any influence whatsoever?

Where do you get that info? The score itself is VERY suspect and indicates to me (because I know how the"entrance exam", as you call it, is given and graded) that it is false.

 

[DKSuddeth]

lots of different stuff HERE

As to , I don't think near as many would if he was upfront about it. hell, how many families DID use influence to keep their kid out of vietnam? I'm guessing alot.

 

[ScreamingEagle]

lots of different stuff HERE

As to , I don't think near as many would if he was upfront about it. hell, how many families DID use influence to keep their kid out of vietnam? I'm guessing alot.

Kerry claims the Vwar was not good. But he had to go all the way over to Vietnam to figure it out. Looks like Bush figured it out without even leaving the country. Now who is smarter?

 

[DKSuddeth]

Kerry claims the Vwar was not good. But he had to go all the way over to Vietnam to figure it out. Looks like Bush figured it out without even leaving the country. Now who is smarter?

that doesn't answer the question though, does anyone truly believe that influence wasn't used to keep him out by putting him at the top of the air guard list?

 

[CSM]

Records from his military file show that in January 1968, after inquiring about Guard admission, Mr. Bush went to an Air Force recruiting office near Yale, where he took and passed the test required by the Air Force for pilot trainees. His score on the pilot aptitude section, one of five on the test, was in the 25th percentile, the lowest allowed for would-be fliers.


The 25th percentile is a far cry from a score of 25. While the 25th percentile is the lowest ALLOWED for would be fliers, it is allowable. Also notice that this ranking was in one of 5 tests. According to the link you provided and out of this same story, the article indicates that he did especially well in regards to leadership. Wonder why you didn't indicate that as well?

 

[dilloduck]

Kerry claims the Vwar was not good. But he had to go all the way over to Vietnam to figure it out. Looks like Bush figured it out without even leaving the country. Now who is smarter?

:teeth:

I don't care if our president was ever a warrior . Niether one of them can prove leadership skills by using thier military record and anyone who WANTS to kill or be killed has a few screws loose.

Hopefully either one of them would use the military advice given to them by a collective group of professionals.

 

[DKSuddeth]

Records from his military file show that in January 1968, after inquiring about Guard admission, Mr. Bush went to an Air Force recruiting office near Yale, where he took and passed the test required by the Air Force for pilot trainees. His score on the pilot aptitude section, one of five on the test, was in the 25th percentile, the lowest allowed for would-be fliers.


The 25th percentile is a far cry from a score of 25. While the 25th percentile is the lowest ALLOWED for would be fliers, it is allowable. Also notice that this ranking was in one of 5 tests. According to the link you provided and out of this same story, the article indicates that he did especially well in regards to leadership. Wonder why you didn't indicate that as well?

The link I provided was to a google search, not a specific article. Wonder why you didn't notice that?

on top of that, why was he pushed to the top of the list? One would think that if there were some fantastic score for that it would be lauded upon during this campaign.

 

[ScreamingEagle]

that doesn't answer the question though, does anyone truly believe that influence wasn't used to keep him out by putting him at the top of the air guard list?

Kerry had as much influence as Bush did. But, stupidly, he did not use it. :huh:

 

[DKSuddeth]

Kerry had as much influence as Bush did. But, stupidly, he did not use it. :huh:

so you're admitting that Bush had used obvious influence to keep him out of Vietnam? cool. but why does THIS have to be stressed over and over again?

 

[CSM]

The link I provided was to a google search, not a specific article. Wonder why you didn't notice that?

on top of that, why was he pushed to the top of the list? One would think that if there were some fantastic score for that it would be lauded upon during this campaign.

Oh I noticed it alright. I even took the trouble to wade through a lot of obvious propaganda to come up with this:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1070876/posts

With the Vietnam War raging, 21-year-old George W. Bush wanted to join the Texas Air National Guard in 1968. He offered no aviation experience but cited his work as a ranch hand, oil field "roustabout" and sporting goods salesman.

He passed the written test required for pilot trainees. Among the results: He showed below-average potential as a would-be flier but scored high as a future leader.

Although Mr. Bush's unit in Texas had a waiting list for many spots, he was accepted because he was one of a handful of applicants willing and qualified to spend more than a year in active training, and extra shifts after training, flying single-seat F-102 fighter jets.

Once he was in, Guard officials sought to capitalize on his standing as the son of a congressman.

A 1970 Guard news release featured Mr. Bush as "one member of our younger generation who doesn't get his kicks from pot or hashish or speed.

"On, he gets high, all right, but not from narcotics," it said.

"Fighters are it," Mr. Bush is quoted as saying. "I've always wanted to be a fighter pilot, and I wouldn't want to fly anything else."

Such are the details that emerge from a review of Mr. Bush's service record by The Dallas Morning News, along with interviews with Guard leaders, former colleagues and state officials familiar with that unit.

Mr. Bush, 52, now the Republican front-runner for president, has repeatedly denied suggestions by political rivals that he received preferential treatment to get into the Guard - widely seen as a haven from which enlistees were unlikely to be shipped to Vietnam.

As evidence he wasn't dodging combat, Mr. Bush has pointed to his efforts to try to volunteer for a program that rotated Guard pilots to Vietnam, although he wasn't called.

"There was no special treatment," he said.

Mr. Bush said he took flying seriously. "You will die in your airplane if you didn't practice, and I wasn't interested in dying," he said.

Records provided to The News by Tom Hail, a historian for the Texas Air National Guard, show that the unit Mr. Bush signed up for was not filled. In mid-1968, the 147th Fighter Interceptor Group, based in Houston, had 156 openings among its authorized staff of 925 military personnel.

Of those, 26 openings were for officer slots, such as that filled by Mr. Bush, and 130 were for enlisted men and women. Also, several former Air Force pilots who served in the unit said that they were recruited from elsewhere to fly for the Texas Guard.

Officers who supervised Mr. Bush and approved his admission to the Guard said they were never contacted by anyone on Mr. Bush's behalf.

"He didn't have any strings pulled, because there weren't any strings to pull," said Leroy Thompson of Brownwood, who commanded the squadron that kept the waiting list for the guard at Ellington Air Force Base. "Our practices were under incredible scrutiny then. It was a very ticklish time."

Fellow members of the Bush unit said they knew of his background.

U.S. Rep. George Bush was at his son's side when he was made an officer in the Guard. The elder Mr. Bush, a former World War II pilot, later spoke at his son's graduation from flight school.

David Hanifl of La Crescent, Minn., an Air Force regular who went through pilot training in Georgia with George W. Bush, said the flight instructors were eager to fly with the Texan.

"He didn't get any preferential treatment, but some of the instructors liked the idea of scheduling him to fly with them because of his connections," he said.

Mr. Hanifl said it was somewhat unusual for a Guardsman to be included in the flight class with Air Force regulars.

"You had to have clout to get that type of assignment," he said. He added that Mr. Bush was a good pilot and did not seek any favors.

Also getting into the Bush unit in 1968 was Lloyd Bentsen III, a recent graduate of Stanford University business school whose father was a former congressman later elected Democratic U.S. senator from Texas.

The waiting list

According to several former officers, the openings in the unit were filled from a waiting list kept in the base safe of Rufus G. Martin, then an Air National Guard personnel officer.

In a recent interview, Mr. Martin of San Antonio said the list was kept on computer and in a bound volume, which was periodically inspected by outside agencies to make sure the list was kept properly.

Mr. Bush said he sought the Guard position on his own, before graduating from Yale University in 1968. He personally met with Col. Walter B. Staudt, commander of the 147th group.

In an interview, Mr. Bush said he walked into Col. Staudt's Houston office and told him he wanted to be a fighter pilot.

"He told me they were looking for pilots," Mr. Bush said. He said he was told that there were five or six flying slots available, and he got one of them.

While Guard slots generally were coveted, pilot positions required superior education, physical fitness and the willingness to spend more than a year in full-time training.

"If somebody like that came along, you'd snatch them up," said the former commander, who retired as a general. "He took no advantage. It wouldn't have made any difference whether his daddy was chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff."

Bobby Hodges, the group's operations officer, and others familiar with Guard rules said Mr. Bush made it to the top of the short list of candidates who could pass both the written officer test and a rigorous flight physical to qualify for the three to four annual pilot training "quotas" allotted to the unit.

Mr. Hodges and Gen. Staudt are the two surviving members of the military panel that reviewed and approved Mr. Bush's officer commission.

Most of those wanting to get into the Guard at that time, they said, didn't want to put in the full year of active service that was required to become a pilot.

Pilot aptitude test

Records from his military file show that in January 1968, after inquiring about Guard admission, Mr. Bush went to an Air Force recruiting office near Yale, where he took and passed the test required by the Air Force for pilot trainees. His score on the pilot aptitude section, one of five on the test, was in the 25th percentile, the lowest allowed for would-be fliers.

Ralph J. Ianuzzi, a newly minted Air Force captain, supervised administration of the test and signed Mr. Bush's score sheet, an event of which he had no recollection.

The pilot portion of the exam included tasks such as identifying the angle of a plane in flight after being shown the view from the cockpit and figuring out which way a gear in a machine would turn in response to another gear's being turned.

"That score for pilot seems low. I made that, and I'm dyslexic," Mr. Ianuzzi, a retired FBI agent who never earned his wings but said it was significant that Mr. Bush did. "He passed the most important test. He flew the plane."

On the "officer quality section," designed to measure intangible traits such as leadership, Mr. Bush scored better than 95 percent of those taking the test.

It's impossible to compare Mr. Bush's score on the test to scores of other pilot candidates, because Air Force historians say no records survive of average scores for those accepted to pilot training.

Pilot training

After completing basic training in San Antonio in August 1968, he helped out aircraft mechanics at Ellington until that November, when a pilot-training slot came open.

He was promoted to second lieutenant and began a 13-month pilot training program at Moody Air Force Base, in Georgia.

He was the only Guardsman among the 70 or so officers from other branches of the military who began the training.

Under the terms of his contract with the military, if Mr. Bush had failed to complete pilot school, he would have been required to serve the Guard in some other capacity, to enter the draft, or to enlist in another branch of the military.

After passing flight training, Mr. Bush was schooled for several more months at Ellington, and in March 1970 began flying "alerts," the name used to describe the 147th's mission of guarding gulf coast borders against foreign attack.

In those days, just five years after the Cuban missile crisis, the 147th kept at least two fighters ready to scramble, round-the-clock, guarding Texas oil fields and refineries against airstrikes.

"It's kind of a non-threatening way to do your military, get paid well for some long shifts, and feel good about your own involvement," said Douglas W. Solberg, now an airline pilot, offering his reasons for joining the 147th and serving with Mr. Bush after an Air Force flying stint. "It was a cushy way to be a patriot."

A former non-commissioned officer who worked on planes and supervised other ground crews at Ellington said Mr. Bush was not a silver-spoon snob or elitist, unlike some former Air Force fliers.

"I remember him coming down, kicking the tires, washing the windows, whatever," said Joe H. Briggs, now of Houston. "I'm probably one of the few people around who'll admit I voted for Clinton. But I'll pull for this guy for president."

No overseas duty

Mr. Bush's application for the Guard included a box to be checked specifying whether he did or did not volunteer for overseas duty. His includes a check mark in the box not wanting to volunteer for such an assignment.

But several personnel officers said that part of the application for domestic Guard units routinely would be filled out that way by a clerk typist, then given to the applicant to sign.

Mr. Bush has said that he signed up for but lacked the number of flying hours to participate in a program called the Palace Alert, which eventually rotated nine pilots from his unit into duty in Southeast Asia from 1969 to 1970.

His signup and willingness to participate was confirmed by several of his colleagues and superiors, who remembered the effort as brash but admirable.

"The more experienced pilots were shaking their heads, saying, "He doesn't even know where to park the planes,' " said Albert C. Lloyd, then head of personnel for the Texas Air National Guard.

Some attention has also focused on Mr. Bush's departure from the service. Under his original oath, he was obligated to serve in the Guard until May 1974. Instead, he was allowed to leave in October 1973 to attend Harvard Business School.

Former Guard officials and members of Mr. Bush's unit said that release, seven months early, was not unusual for the Guard. Mr. Bush's unit was changing airplanes at the time, from the single-seat F-102 to the dual-seat F-101. They said it made little sense to retrain him for just a few months' service, and letting him go freed spots for the Guard to recruit F-101 pilots from the Air Force and elsewhere.

Please note that he was not "pushed to the top of the list" according to the above. there were 156 slots open, of which 26 were open officer slots.

 

[Jimmyeatworld]

lots of different stuff HERE

As to , I don't think near as many would if he was upfront about it. hell, how many families DID use influence to keep their kid out of vietnam? I'm guessing alot.

To answer the question first, he may very well have and I'm guessing he probably did. Off the top of my head, I don't remember exactly what position George H.W. Bush held at that time, but he probably had enough pull to do it. I'll say the same thing about this as I did about Clinton when the draft dodging thing came up in '92. I really, honestly don't care. If you exclude all the people who pulled strings or avoided Vietnam in some way, you're going to be excluding a lot of good people. I will say that at least Bush did go into the Guard and there is a possibility he would have been called up. Granted, it was a small one, but there was a chance.

What a lot of people don't seem to understand is that there was a huge difference in the opinion of Vietnam when Kerry was eligible for the draft in 1966 and when Bush and Clinton were both eligible in 1968. In 1966, Vietnam was percieved as a winnable war. By 1968, it was seen as a hell hole we might never climb out of. I'm also getting tired of Kerry making it seem like he put a knife in his teeth and went storming into Vietnam barechested and ready to fight. The fact is he tried to defer service to go to school in Paris, but that was declined. When he finally did say "send me" and volunteered for swift boat duty, that duty was seen as a much easier job that would see little or no combat. By the time he actually got there, the position was a much different one to have.

 

[DKSuddeth]

Please note that he was not "pushed to the top of the list" according to the above. there were 156 slots open, of which 26 were open officer slots.

G@dD@*n Frickin MEDIA BS!!!!!! I couldn't find that to save my ass.

 

[CSM]

G@dD@*n Frickin MEDIA BS!!!!!! I couldn't find that to save my ass.

Sorry about that, but thanks for the linky things...

 

[ScreamingEagle]

so you're admitting that Bush had used obvious influence to keep him out of Vietnam? cool. but why does THIS have to be stressed over and over again?

I'm not saying that at all.

GWB joined the Air Guard like many others who also were willing to put their lives on the line if called up. Maybe Kerry joined the Navy because he wasn't smart enough to fly a jet like Bush was. Kerry obviously wasn't smart enough to remain stateside.

Why does Bush Sr. have to stress that he didn't use his influence over and over again? Probably because liberals are constantly looking for something - anything! - to hang GW on. Pathetic, really.

 

[freeandfun1]

Vietnam was not the ONLY war we were fighting at that time. We were also fighting the cold war. So are all those troops that did their time in Korea instead of Vietnam cowards too? Or what about the troops that were stationed in Berlin facing the Soviets every day? Are they cowards cuz they didn't volunteer for Vietnam?

It is documented that Kerry tried to get a deferment but couldn't (duh, he went to an Academy and received a gov't paid education - he HAD to serve). It is also clear that Kerry didn't complete his time in service. That is why he won't sign the form 180. He doesn't want that coming out more clearly. Right now it is only the SWVT and a few others that are saying that, but without him releasing his records, they cannot prove it. But add it up.... he had a SIX year commitment, yet he was protesting just three years after getting out of Vietnam. Did HE report to his reserve unit after his return for his 1 weekend a month and two weeks a year? If anybody is going to claim he did, PROVE IT!