GW Calls It Right!

[Annie]

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20050409/ap_on_re_eu/pope_bush

No 'mixed' legacy:

Bush Calls Pope's Legacy Clear, Strong

1 hour, 41 minutes ago Europe - AP


By TOM RAUM, Associated Press Writer

ABOARD AIR FORCE ONE - President Bush said Friday that Pope John Paul II's legacy is clear and strong, despite mixed feelings about the pope's leadership of the Roman Catholic church that some — including former President Clinton — have discussed since his death.

Talking just hours after attending the pope's funeral Mass, Bush said he was more personally affected by the service than he had expected.


Recalling beautiful music, a homily that drew an enthusiastic response from young people and, particularly, the moment when the pope's plain cypress casket was carried past mourners with the sun shining down on it, Bush said his own faith had been strengthened by being in St. Peter's Square with the throng of world leaders and Catholic faithful.


"I happen to feel it was a special moment that was part of a special ceremony for a special person," Bush told reporters traveling with him on Air Force One as he flew from Rome to his Texas ranch. "Today's ceremony, I bet you, for millions of people was a reaffirmation for many and a way to make sure doubts don't seep into your soul."


He added, "This will be one the highlights of my presidency."


Bush, the first U.S. president to attend a papal funeral, led a five-member American delegation to Vatican City that included two former presidents — his father, George H.W. Bush, and his predecessor, Bill Clinton.


Despite the bonhomie displayed by the bipartisan presidential trio, a disagreement over the pope himself emerged.


Aboard Air Force One on the way to Italy earlier this week, Clinton said John Paul was "like all of us — he may have a mixed legacy," pointing to controversy over the pope's efforts to centralize church authority in the Vatican, to tamp down "liberation theology" movements, to promote conservative doctrine and to oppose discussion of female or married priests. Still, Clinton heralded the pope as "a figure of historic importance" who hastened the end of Communism in central Europe, saw the number of Catholics increase dramatically on his watch and was, above all, "a consistent voice for human dignity in the face of political oppression and modern materialism."

"On balance, I think he was a man of God, he was a consistent person, he did what he thought was right and that's about all you can ask from anybody," Clinton said.


On the way home, Bush was asked to respond to the "mixed legacy" comment. He hastened to disagree with it.


"Pope John Paul II will have a clear legacy of peace, compassion and strong legacy of setting a clear moral tone," Bush said.


To underscore his meaning, he then amended himself. "A clear and excellent legacy, if you don't mind adding the word excellent," he said, talking at length in the conference room on his plane. "I wanted to make sure there was a proper adjective to the legacy I thought he left behind. It was more than just clear."


"I would define Pope John Paul II as a clear thinker who was like a rock. Tides of moral relativism kind of washed around him, but he stood strong as a rock," Bush said. "There's a reason why the largest crowd ever to come and pay homage to a human happened, and it's because of the man's character, his views, his positions, his leadership capacity, his ability to relate to all people, his deep compassion, his love of peace."


The president said the pope — "a truly great man who is and will always be a great historical figure" — always had a sparkle about him that helped him communicate even after his body began to fail him.

Bush talks often about the power of faith in his own life. But as he reflected on the pope and the ceremony that laid him to rest, he did so in unusually personal terms, saying his relationship with John Paul and his presence at St. Peter's on Friday strengthened his own beliefs.


He talked of feeling the presence of "a spirit that was an integral part of the ceremony." Using a description of Christian life common to evangelicals, he said the Mass had reminded him that faith is a long-term endeavor: "It's called a `walk,' it's not called a `moment' or a `respite.'"


He also admitted struggling with doubts. "I think a walk in faith constantly confronts doubt, as faith becomes more mature," the president said.


Bush later returned to that topic to insist that those questions do not reach to the fundamental tenets of Christianity.

"There is no doubt in my mind there is a living God. And no doubt in my mind that the Lord Christ was sent by the Almighty. No doubt in my mind about that," he said. "When I'm talking about doubts, I'm talking about the doubts that an individual struggles with in his or her life."

Bush was spending the weekend at his Crawford, Texas, ranch ahead of Monday meetings there with Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon.

Over the next couple of days, Bush plans some mountain biking with Mark McKinnon, the top adman from his re-election campaign, sprinkled in with a little fishing, brush-clearing, bluebonnet appreciation and reading Robert K. Massie's 1980 biography "Peter the Great."

 

[Annie]

too lazy to start another thread that I know the 'born again' will 'try' to ignore.

Interesting day at school. The 3rd grade teacher taped FOX NEWS from 2 am-6am CST. 6th grade sub taped CBS from 3-5.

At 9am, 3rd grade and 8th grade, (8 years and 13 years) were together for 50 minutes. What they got were the 'big ideas' from the Years of PJII: Mercy, steadfastness, 'be not afraid', salvation through Christ...

 

[Avatar4321]

Its amazing how when the world is trying to celebrate the life and mourn the death of the Pope, Bill Clinton is still focused solely on himself. Everyone legacies aren't mixed. In fact, I don't think anyone's legacy is mixed. President Bush nailed what the Pope's legacy will be. Bill Clinton can try to pretend its a mixed legacy, heck he can try to pretend his legacy was a mixed legacy. Neither the Pope's legacy, nor Clintons legacy was mixed.

The Pope stood as a man of faith and conviction in a time of shifting values. He helped bring about the end of the Soviet empire. Opened Dozens of nations to hear the Gospel of Jesus Christ in all it's forms. And kept values steady. He will always be remembered for that.

Clinton will not have a mixed or a good legacy. He will have a legacy of being one of the worst President's in the 20th century. He will be seen as a man whose lack of vision for the world and diligence in protecting our nation brought about 911. He will be seen as the man who waged war to cover his sins. He will be seen as a man who blamed the public when he got caught with his pants down. He will be seen as that man who made the American people complacent. He had stewardship over the nation and in part the world during most of the decade of illusion. Illusion in security. Illusion in prosperity.

No, no one leaves mixed legacies. They are either remembered for the good things they do or the bad things they are do. rarely both.

 

[Annie]

Its amazing how when the world is trying to celebrate the life and mourn the death of the Pope, Bill Clinton is still focused solely on himself. Everyone legacies aren't mixed. In fact, I don't think anyone's legacy is mixed. President Bush nailed what the Pope's legacy will be. Bill Clinton can try to pretend its a mixed legacy, heck he can try to pretend his legacy was a mixed legacy. Neither the Pope's legacy, nor Clintons legacy was mixed.

The Pope stood as a man of faith and conviction in a time of shifting values. He helped bring about the end of the Soviet empire. Opened Dozens of nations to hear the Gospel of Jesus Christ in all it's forms. And kept values steady. He will always be remembered for that.

Clinton will not have a mixed or a good legacy. He will have a legacy of being one of the worst President's in the 20th century. He will be seen as a man whose lack of vision for the world and diligence in protecting our nation brought about 911. He will be seen as the man who waged war to cover his sins. He will be seen as a man who blamed the public when he got caught with his pants down. He will be seen as that man who made the American people complacent. He had stewardship over the nation and in part the world during most of the decade of illusion. Illusion in security. Illusion in prosperity.

No, no one leaves mixed legacies. They are either remembered for the good things they do or the bad things they are do. rarely both.

Thanks Avatar! You restore my faith in Christians in general. I know that you are 'born again', yet I do not see the 'judgementalism' that seems ripe on the boards. Unlike some, I haven't a clue to what God wants, just trying to do the best I can, with too many faults to count. Those that 'know' may be right, I'm just not amongst them.

I do know a person that lived a life better than I could hope to live when I see it. If someone had shot me twice in the abdomen, I know I wouldn't just pop in to say, "I forgive you, even if you haven't asked me to..." Shoot, I don't think I would have if they did!

 

[dilloduck]

Its amazing how when the world is trying to celebrate the life and mourn the death of the Pope, Bill Clinton is still focused solely on himself. Everyone legacies aren't mixed. In fact, I don't think anyone's legacy is mixed. President Bush nailed what the Pope's legacy will be. Bill Clinton can try to pretend its a mixed legacy, heck he can try to pretend his legacy was a mixed legacy. Neither the Pope's legacy, nor Clintons legacy was mixed.

The Pope stood as a man of faith and conviction in a time of shifting values. He helped bring about the end of the Soviet empire. Opened Dozens of nations to hear the Gospel of Jesus Christ in all it's forms. And kept values steady. He will always be remembered for that.

Clinton will not have a mixed or a good legacy. He will have a legacy of being one of the worst President's in the 20th century. He will be seen as a man whose lack of vision for the world and diligence in protecting our nation brought about 911. He will be seen as the man who waged war to cover his sins. He will be seen as a man who blamed the public when he got caught with his pants down. He will be seen as that man who made the American people complacent. He had stewardship over the nation and in part the world during most of the decade of illusion. Illusion in security. Illusion in prosperity.

No, no one leaves mixed legacies. They are either remembered for the good things they do or the bad things they are do. rarely both.

Excellent point----frickin Clinton is now trying to PRE-write history.
get lost, Bubba :2guns:

 

[Avatar4321]

Thanks Avatar! You restore my faith in Christians in general. I know that you are 'born again', yet I do not see the 'judgementalism' that seems ripe on the boards. Unlike some, I haven't a clue to what God wants, just trying to do the best I can, with too many faults to count. Those that 'know' may be right, I'm just not amongst them.

I do know a person that lived a life better than I could hope to live when I see it. If someone had shot me twice in the abdomen, I know I wouldn't just pop in to say, "I forgive you, even if you haven't asked me to..." Shoot, I don't think I would have if they did!

Im not born again. I mean I have been born of the Spirit. Every Christian should be. But I am not a Born agian Christian as in the category of Evangelical Christianity.

The Pope has a strong character. And as I said He helped open dozens of nations up to all types of Christianity. I mean i know he was focusing on catholicism but it got all of them in.

 

[Annie]

Im not born again. I mean I have been born of the Spirit. Every Christian should be. But I am not a Born agian Christian as in the category of Evangelical Christianity.

The Pope has a strong character. And as I said He helped open dozens of nations up to all types of Christianity. I mean i know he was focusing on catholicism but it got all of them in.

Sorry I was wrong misinterpreting the 'born again.' I admire your Christian background. I agree, the Pope was a unique character. He was a seldom found bridge, for many.

 

[freeandfun1]

too lazy to start another thread that I know the 'born again' will 'try' to ignore.

You sure do like taking jabs at the born-agains lately don't ya?

 

[freeandfun1]

Thanks Avatar! You restore my faith in Christians in general. I know that you are 'born again', yet I do not see the 'judgementalism' that seems ripe on the boards.

And this does not present a judgemental attitutude? You have just just judged born-agains judgemental.

You like to rip the beliefs of others, yet you take umbrage if anybody rips your beliefs.

 

[Mr. P]

You sure do like taking jabs at the born-agains lately don't ya?

Well, they do make themselves easy targets..

 

[dilloduck]

Well, they do make themselves easy targets..

How's that?---by claiming they are right?

 

[Mr. P]

How's that?---by claiming they are right?

No, by wearing their religon on their sleeve. Instead of in their heart and mind. I know you won't understand that, but that's okay.

 

[freeandfun1]

No, by wearing their religon on their sleeve. Instead of in their heart and mind. I know you won't understand that, but that's okay.

Explain how sharing the Gospel is wearing their religion on their sleeve? Also, don't you think her unwarranted comments (nobody had said ANYTHING about her post) was not her wearing her disdain on her sleeve?

Where in the Bible does it say that you are supposed to keep your beliefs in your heart and mind? It does not. It tells you to share your love of Christ. To share the word of God. It is kinda hard to do that if you are keeping it only in your heart and mind. I know you won't understand that, but that's okay. That is what you choose.

 

[dilloduck]

No, by wearing their religon on their sleeve. Instead of in their heart and mind. I know you won't understand that, but that's okay.

You mean they should keep it to themselves?--like a hush-hush deal ? What YOU don't understand is that being open about it is PART of the religion. Haven't you figured out how to ignore them yet or do you have a big button that's easy for them to push?

 

[freeandfun1]

You mean they should keep it to themselves?--like a hush-hush deal ? What YOU don't understand is that being open about it is PART of the religion. Haven't you figured out how to ignore them yet or do you have a big button that's easy for them to push?

It is hard for people like P and Kat to ignore the people that they are openly attempting to condemn, judge, vilify and antagonize.

 

[Mr. P]

You mean they should keep it to themselves?--like a hush-hush deal ? What YOU don't understand is that being open about it is PART of the religion. Haven't you figured out how to ignore them yet or do you have a big button that's easy for them to push?

No, I don't have a big button, Dillo. But it looks like I hit one with you two. Which is exactly what I meant when I said "wearing it on the sleave". You folks are so defensive we could place bets on how many seconds it takes for you guys to confront any post that doesn't fit your beliefs. Typical of THUMPERS.

 

[freeandfun1]

No, I don't have a big button, Dillo. But it looks like I hit one with you two. Which is exactly what I meant when I said "wearing it on the sleave". You folks are so defensive we could place bets on how many seconds it takes for you guys to confront any post that doesn't fit your beliefs. Typical of THUMPERS.

Defensive? When one is attacked for NO REASON, sure, they become defensive. P, you need to grow up a bit and practive what YOU preach.

Do you deny that you antagonize? I have asked you before not to use the term "thumpers" yet you continue to do it in an obvious attempt to flame and antagonize. Read the rules, flaming just to flame is not acceptable. If Sir Evil or Jimmy would like to correct me on this, or give you an exemption from the rules, then so be it. Until then, again, I NICELY ask you not to use that term as I find it offensive.

 

[Mr. P]

Defensive? When one is attacked for NO REASON, sure, they become defensive. ....

You haven't been attacked..cept in your own mind I guess.

 

[freeandfun1]

You haven't been attacked..cept in your own mind I guess.

She made a derisive comment about born-again Christians (which I consider myself "born-again" in the spirit of Christ so I am "born-again") and you jumped on it. She said born-agains are judgemental and I do not consider myself judgemental (show me anything where I have been judgemental). I express my beliefs, but I go out of my way not to be offensive. You go out your way to be offensive.

Don't feign ignorance as it just makes you look STUPID.

 

[Mr. P]

She made a derisive comment about born-again Christians (which I consider myself "born-again" in the spirit of Christ so I am "born-again") and you jumped on it. She said born-agains are judgemental and I do not consider myself judgemental (show me anything where I have been judgemental). I express my beliefs, but I go out of my way not to be offensive. You go out your way to be offensive.

Don't feign ignorance as it just makes you look STUPID.

Sounds like ya have a problem with "she".."Mr." does not denote she..look else where to resolve your problem. I hope that's not too offensive to ya.