Gun control works….two 13 year old boys shot in Britain. You know, where guns were banned and confiscated.

[surada]

He was a socialist....but you guys have been trying to lie about him since the Death Camps were discovered.......if you can't unload him, then all of the worst mass murders since 1917 happened at the hands of left wing socialists...and the communist mass murders are still hidden behind a veil of stupidity by people like you.....

Hitler was not a socialist.. He never nationalized any industry. Have you spent time in Germany or been to Dachau? I have been many times.. My longest visit was 5 weeks.

Hitler was a racist, nationalist and fascist. He killed socialists and communists or put them in concentration camps along with professors, lawyers, doctors and clergy.. basically anyone who had an education and could challenge his bullshit rhetoric.

 

[2aguy]

They don't have a wild, wild west culture in the UK or in Europe. Guns are for gentlemen not thugs and cowboys.

Yes.......and women walking in parks can get raped.........

A woman is grabbed by a violent serial rapist at a bus stop, a train platform or in her apartment...he plans on beating, raping and murdering her. She has a gun, and can stop the rape with the gun......

Do you want her to use that gun to stop the rape?

A woman stops an attack with a gun, a brutal rape, torture and murder...in a public space....if you had the ability to go back in time, and prevent her from having that gun...would you?

====

The British government will not allow a woman to own and carry a gun to prevent being gang raped in a London park.....saying she does not have "good reason," to own the gun.


A member of the House of Lords wants to quail hunt with his rich friends on his private country estate, and the British government gives him the gun....because he has "good reason."

That makes sense to you?

 

[2aguy]

Hitler was not a socialist.. He never nationalized any industry. Have you spent time in Germany or been to Dachau? I have been many times.. My longest visit was 5 weeks.

Hitler was a racist, nationalist and fascist. He killed socialists and communists or put them in concentration camps along with professors, lawyers, doctors and clergy.. basically anyone who had an education and could challenge his bullshit rhetoric.

Fascism is socialism....

Fascism: The Concise Encyclopedia of Economics | Library of Economics and Liberty


A
s an economic system, fascism is socialism with a capitalist veneer. The word derives from fasces, the Roman symbol of collectivism and power: a tied bundle of rods with a protruding ax. In its day (the 1920s and 1930s), fascism was seen as the happy medium between boom-and-bust-prone liberal capitalism, with its alleged class conflict, wasteful competition, and profit-oriented egoism, and revolutionary Marxism, with its violent and socially divisive persecution of the bourgeoisie.

Fascism substituted the particularity of nationalism and racialism—“blood and soil”—for the internationalism of both classical liberalism and Marxism.
Where socialism sought totalitarian control of a society’s economic processes through direct state operation of the means of production, fascism sought that control indirectly, through domination of nominally private owners.

Where socialism nationalized property explicitly, fascism did so implicitly, by requiring owners to use their property in the “national interest”—that is, as the autocratic authority conceived it. (Nevertheless, a few industries were operated by the state.)
Where socialism abolished all market relations outright, fascism left the appearance of market relations while planning all economic activities. Where socialism abolished money and prices, fascism controlled the monetary system and set all prices and wages politically.
x
In doing all this, fascism denatured the marketplace.Entrepreneurship was abolished. State ministries, rather than consumers, determined what was produced and under what conditions.

Read A Pile Of Top Nazis Talking About How They Love Leftist Marxism

The Nazis were leftists. This statement is blasphemy to the academic-media complex, since everyone knows the Nazis were degenerate right-wingers fueled by toxic capitalism and racism. But evidence Adolf Hitler’s gang were men of the left, while debatable, is compelling.
The dispute on Nazi origins resurfaced through the confluence of brawling alt-right and antifa fringe movements and recent alternative histories by Dinesh D’Souza and others. The vitriol and lack of candor it produces from supposedly fact-driven academics and media is disturbing, if unsurprising. They stifle dissent on touchy subjects to maintain their narrative and enforce cultural hegemony.

However uncomfortable to opinion shapers, alternative views of the Third Reich exist and were written by the finest minds of their time. Opinions from the period perhaps carry more weight because they are unburdened by the aftermath of the uniquely heinous Nazi crimes.
------

Also, Adolf Hitler Loved Karl Marx
It wasn’t only theoretical. Hitler repeatedly praised Marx privately, stating he had “learned a great deal from Marxism.” The trouble with the Weimar Republic, he said, was that its politicians “had never even read Marx.” He also stated his differences with communists were that they were intellectual types passing out pamphlets, whereas “I have put into practice what these peddlers and pen pushers have timidly begun.”

It wasn’t just privately that Hitler’s fealty for Marx surfaced. In “Mein Kampf,” he states that without his racial insights National Socialism “would really do nothing more than compete with Marxism on its own ground.” Nor did Hitler eschew this sentiment once reaching power. As late as 1941, with the war in bloom, he stated “basically National Socialism and Marxism are the same” in a speech published by the Royal Institute of International Affairs.

Nazi propaganda minister and resident intellectual Joseph Goebbels wrote in his diary that the Nazis would install “real socialism” after Russia’s defeat in the East. And Hitler favorite Albert Speer, the Nazi armaments minister whose memoir became an international bestseller, wrote that Hitler viewed Joseph Stalin as a kindred spirit, ensuring his prisoner of war son received good treatment, and even talked of keeping Stalin in power in a puppet government after Germany’s eventual triumph. His views on Great Britain’s Winston Churchill and the United States’s Franklin Delano Roosevelt were decidedly less kind.

Nazi and Communist Hatred of Each Other Was Brotherly
Despite this, there’s a persistent claim that Nazis and communists hated each other, and mention that the Nazis persecuted socialists and oppressed trade unions. These things are true, but prove little. The camps’ hatred stemmed from familiarity. It was internecine, the nastiest kind.

The Nazis and communists were not only in a struggle for street-war supremacy, but also recruits. These recruits were easily turned, because both sides were fighting for the same men. Hayek recalls

 

[Circe]

Yes.......and women walking in parks can get raped.........

A woman is grabbed by a violent serial rapist at a bus stop, a train platform or in her apartment...he plans on beating, raping and murdering her. She has a gun, and can stop the rape with the gun......

Do you want her to use that gun to stop the rape?

A woman stops an attack with a gun, a brutal rape, torture and murder...in a public space....if you had the ability to go back in time, and prevent her from having that gun...would you?

====

The British government will not allow a woman to own and carry a gun to prevent being gang raped in a London park.....saying she does not have "good reason," to own the gun.


A member of the House of Lords wants to quail hunt with his rich friends on his private country estate, and the British government gives him the gun....because he has "good reason."

That makes sense to you?

Gang rape nothing ----- twice now it's been a cop! A bobby. Darn. Yeah, I think women need to be carrying EVERYWHERE.

 

[2aguy]

They don't have a wild, wild west culture in the UK or in Europe. Guns are for gentlemen not thugs and cowboys.

They have a mass murder culture.....World War 1, World War 2, ethnic cleansing, socialism, fascism, communism.....12 million murdered after 1917....in a 6 year period.....

12 million men, women and children murdered by the socialists across Europe, after they surrendered their guns on the promise that would make them safer....

Meanwhile, in the U.S. total gun murder from the 1930s? Around 870,000......87 years and it doesn't come close to the organized murder of innocents by their own governments...

And you think it is a good idea to give up our guns?

 

[Man of Ethics]

Gun control works...here, it's 2 a day.

Much less then in USA. Even per capita.

 

[Vagabond63]

Nope.....that was in 2013 under obama..........where they spent 10 million dollars to study all available data on gun self defense....and came up with between 500,000-3 million defensive gun uses...the research the CDC in the 1990s was their own...which they hid, because it supported what Kleck found...

ROFL! more BS from 2aguy.
The CDC included a question on DGU in three of their annual surveys in their BRFSS (Behavioral Risk Factor Surveillance System surveys in 1996, 1997, and 1998. Kleck himself stated that it is impossible to extrapolate meaningfully from the small set of states surveyed over the course of those three years to a solid national DGU figure after a peer review forced him to withdraw his original paper regarding the CDC data. The CDC hid nothing, the data from those surveys was widely available at the time. There were no conspiracies to bury information.

 

[Vagabond63]

How is this a straw man "non-question," when it is based on a woman gang raped in a London Park?

...and the goalposts are on the move again. You started asking this question months before that particular incident took place, you are just manipulating matters to fit your narrative, pathetic.

 

[Vagabond63]

The difference......between Britain and the U.S....

*sigh* More reguritated BS... It's disturbing, however, that you appear to be obsessed with rape. Just an FYI, in neither of your incidents was rape a factor. Kristie MCMains attacker was charged with attempted murder, robbery, kidnapping and criminal mischief.

 

[Vagabond63]

12 million men, women and children murdered by the socialists across Europe,

Just out of curiosity, where do you get this figure from? I assume given the dates 1917-22, you are alluding to the Russian civil war?

 

[2aguy]

ROFL! more BS from 2aguy.
The CDC included a question on DGU in three of their annual surveys in their BRFSS (Behavioral Risk Factor Surveillance System surveys in 1996, 1997, and 1998. Kleck himself stated that it is impossible to extrapolate meaningfully from the small set of states surveyed over the course of those three years to a solid national DGU figure after a peer review forced him to withdraw his original paper regarding the CDC data. The CDC hid nothing, the data from those surveys was widely available at the time. There were no conspiracies to bury information.

Yep, good thing we also have Kleck's work and 17 other studies in the subject to go with the CDC numbers....

Yes...the numbers were so widely available they werent discovered till Kleck discovered they existed.....almost 20 years later....

He pulled his statememts on the CDC then submitted the new work on the CDC numbers...

You still cant get around the fact that 18 diffeeent research groups from both private and public groups, using trained, professional researchers have found these numbers ........ yet only you know the truth.......

 

[2aguy]

Just out of curiosity, where do you get this figure from? I assume given the dates 1917-22, you are alluding to the Russian civil war?

12 million muredeed by the German socialists across Europe, 25 million by the Russian communists over 70 million by rhe Chinese communists......

 

[2aguy]

Just out of curiosity, where do you get this figure from? I assume given the dates 1917-22, you are alluding to the Russian civil war?

Here....this puts the socialists murdering far more than 12 million...

By genocide, the murder of hostages, reprisal raids, forced labor, "euthanasia," starvation, exposure, medical experiments, and terror bombing, and in the concentration and death camps, the Nazis murdered from 15,003,000 to 31,595,000 people, most likely 20,946,000 men, women, handicapped, aged, sick, prisoners of war, forced laborers, camp inmates, critics, homosexuals, Jews, Slavs, Serbs, Germans, Czechs, Italians, Poles, French, Ukrainians, and many others. Among them 1,000,000 were children under eighteen years of age.1

And none of these monstrous figures even include civilian and military combat or war-deaths

NAZI GENOCIDE AND MASS MURDER

 

[2aguy]

*sigh* More reguritated BS... It's disturbing, however, that you appear to be obsessed with rape. Just an FYI, in neither of your incidents was rape a factor. Kristie MCMains attacker was charged with attempted murder, robbery, kidnapping and criminal mischief.

How do you know that rape wasn't a factor? Considering the two guys with the bat wanted to drag the woman into the woods.....and if the guy who stabbed her when she resisted was originally going to kidnap her...you don't think rape would have been involved?

 

[2aguy]

Just out of curiosity, where do you get this figure from? I assume given the dates 1917-22, you are alluding to the Russian civil war?

And since you are back....

A woman is grabbed by a violent serial rapist at a bus stop, a train platform or in her apartment...he plans on beating, raping and murdering her. She has a gun, and can stop the rape with the gun......

Do you want her to use that gun to stop the rape?

A woman stops an attack with a gun, a brutal rape, torture and murder...in a public space....if you had the ability to go back in time, and prevent her from having that gun...would you?
====

The British government will not allow a woman to own and carry a gun to prevent being gang raped in a London park.....saying she does not have "good reason," to own the gun.

A member of the House of Lords wants to quail hunt with his rich friends on his private country estate, and the British government gives him the gun....because he has "good reason."

Does this make sense to you?

 

[AzogtheDefiler]

Yep and the weapons they use are fully automatic military rifles and grenades, both of which are illegal in all of Europe, Britain and Sweden.

2012?

U.S. gun deaths among highest, but tops in just one measure

Is the United States so awash in guns that gun violence has become a public health crisis? Dr. Rochelle Walensky, direct

www.politifact.com

 

[2aguy]

ROFL! more BS from 2aguy.
The CDC included a question on DGU in three of their annual surveys in their BRFSS (Behavioral Risk Factor Surveillance System surveys in 1996, 1997, and 1998. Kleck himself stated that it is impossible to extrapolate meaningfully from the small set of states surveyed over the course of those three years to a solid national DGU figure after a peer review forced him to withdraw his original paper regarding the CDC data. The CDC hid nothing, the data from those surveys was widely available at the time. There were no conspiracies to bury information.

The Kleck research with commentary...

SSRN Electronic Library

Abstract​

In 1996, 1997, and 1998, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) conducted large-scale surveys asking about defensive gun use (DGU) in four to seven states. Analysis of the raw data allows the estimation of the prevalence of DGU for those areas. Data pertaining to the same sets of states from the 1993 National Self-Defense Survey (Kleck and Gertz 1995) allow these results to be extrapolated to the U.S. as a whole. CDC’s survey data confirm previous high estimates of DGU prevalence, disconfirm estimates derived from the National Crime Victimization Survey, and indicate that defensive uses of guns by crime victims are far more common than offensive uses by criminals. CDC has never reported these results.

=========



Reason article on the revised paper..



A Second Look at a Controversial Study About Defensive Gun Use



-------



Original version before he went back to revise it...

The actual paper by Kleck revealing the CDC hiding data..



SSRN Electronic Library

The timing of CDC’s addition of a DGU question to the BRFSS is of some interest. Prior to 1996, the BRFSS had never included a question about DGU. Kleck and Gertz (1995) conducted their survey in February through April 1993, presented their estimate that there were over 2 million DGUs in 1992 at the annual meetings of the American Society of Criminology in November 1994, and published it in the Journal of Criminal Law and Criminology in the Fall of 1995. CDC added a DGU question to the BRFSS the very first year they could do so after that 1995 publication, in the 1996 edition. CDC was not the only federal agency during the Clinton administration to field a survey addressing the prevalence of DGU at that particular time. The National Institute of Justice (NIJ) financed a national survey devoting even more detailed attention to estimating DGU prevalence, which was fielded in November and December 1994, just months after preliminary results of the 1993 Kleck/Gertz survey became known. Neither CDC nor NIJ had ever financed research into DGU before 1996. Perhaps there was just “something in the air” that motivated the two agencies to suddenly decide in 1994 to address the topic. Another interpretation, however, is that fielding of the surveys was triggered by the Kleck/Gertz findings that DGU was common, and that these agencies hoped to obtain lower DGU prevalence estimates than those obtained by Kleck/Gertz. Low estimates would have implied fewer beneficial uses of firearms, results that would have been far more congenial to the strongly pro-control positions of the Clinton administration.


CDC, in Surveys It Never Bothered Making Public, Provides More Evidence That Plenty of Americans Innocently Defend Themselves with Guns



Kleck's new paper—"What Do CDC's Surveys Say About the Frequency of Defensive Gun Uses?"—finds that the agency had asked about DGUs in its Behavioral Risk Factor Surveillance System in 1996, 1997, and 1998.

Those polls, Kleck writes,

are high-quality telephone surveys of enormous probability samples of U.S. adults, asking about a wide range of health-related topics. Those that addressed DGU asked more people about this topic than any other surveys conducted before or since. For example, the 1996 survey asked the DGU question of 5,484 people. The next-largest number questioned about DGU was 4,977 by Kleck and Gertz (1995), and sample sizes were much smaller in all the rest of surveys on the topic (Kleck 2001).

Kleck was impressed with how well the survey worded its question: "During the last 12 months, have you confronted another person with a firearm, even if you did not fire it, to protect yourself, your property, or someone else?" Respondents were told to leave out incidents from occupations, like policing, where using firearms is part of the job. Kleck is impressed with how the question excludes animals but includes DGUs outside the home as well as within it.

Kleck is less impressed with the fact that the question was only asked of people who admitted to owning guns in their home earlier in the survey, and that they asked no follow-up questions regarding the specific nature of the DGU incident.

From Kleck's own surveys, he found that only 79 percent of those who reported a DGU "had also reported a gun in their household at the time of the interview," so he thinks whatever numbers the CDC found need to be revised upward to account for that. (Kleck speculates that CDC showed a sudden interest in the question of DGUs starting in 1996 because Kleck's own famous/notorious survey had been published in 1995.)

At any rate, Kleck downloaded the datasets for those three years and found that the "weighted percent who reported a DGU...was 1.3% in 1996, 0.9% in 1997, 1.0% in 1998, and 1.07% in all three surveys combined."





Kleck figures if you do the adjustment upward he thinks necessary for those who had DGU incidents without personally owning a gun in the home at the time of the survey, and then the adjustment downward he thinks necessary because CDC didn't do detailed follow-ups to confirm the nature of the incident, you get 1.24 percent, a close match to his own 1.326 percent figure.

He concludes that the small difference between his estimate and the CDC's "can be attributed to declining rates of violent crime, which accounts for most DGUs. With fewer occasions for self-defense in the form of violent victimizations, one would expect fewer DGUs."

Kleck further details how much these CDC surveys confirmed his own controversial work:

The final adjusted prevalence of 1.24% therefore implies that in an average year during 1996–1998, 2.46 million U.S. adults used a gun for self-defense.

This estimate, based on an enormous sample of 12,870 cases (unweighted) in a nationally representative sample, strongly confirms the 2.5 million past-12-months estimate obtained Kleck and Gertz (1995)....CDC's results, then, imply that guns were used defensively by victims about 3.6 times as often as they were used offensively by criminals.

 

[Vagabond63]

You still cant get around the fact that 18 diffeeent research groups from both private and public groups, using trained, professional researchers have found these numbers ........ yet only you know the truth.......

*sigh*
Every one of these "research groups" state that they extrapolate from relatively small samples. They take a best guess.

None of these groups claim their research is "absolute truth", they leave that to whack job conspiracy theorists and those with agendas to cherry pick and promote.

ESTIMATES/GUESSES of DGUs range from 300,000 to 3,000,000; the true figure could be 1/10th of that to 10x that, that has always been my position, whereas you treat these figures as absolute facts; they're not. Sorry to burst your bubble.

 

[Vagabond63]

The Kleck research with commentary...

SSRN Electronic Library

OH, I so love it when you destroy your own argument with your own links.

Your SSRN link states "This paper has been removed from SSRN at the request of the author, SSRN, or the rights holder."

As I said before Kleck removed his paper when peer reviews demolished his findings.

Oh, BTW from the Reason article you quote,

"Kleck notes that it's simply impossible to extrapolate meaningfully from the small set of states surveyed over the course of those three years to a solid national DGU figure from the BRFSS itself: "We cannot directly apply these estimates to the U.S. because the sets of states do not constitute a probability sample of the U.S. The prevalence of DGU could be far higher in some states than in the nation as a whole if the states have higher-than-average rates of gun ownership and/or crime, or could be far lower if the set of states had lower gun ownership or crime rates."

 

[Vagabond63]

Here....this puts the socialists murdering far more than 12 million...

Ah, thought so. Another figure you made up.