Gun control works….two 13 year old boys shot in Britain. You know, where guns were banned and confiscated.

[2aguy]

Ah, seems you are projecting your own inadequacies onto me again.

And....you still refuse to answer these questions...

A woman is grabbed by a violent serial rapist at a bus stop, a train platform or in her apartment...he plans on beating, raping and murdering her. She has a gun, and can stop the rape with the gun......

Do you want her to use that gun to stop the rape?

A woman stops an attack with a gun, a brutal rape, torture and murder...in a public space....if you had the ability to go back in time, and prevent her from having that gun...would you?

The British government will not allow a woman to own and carry a gun to prevent being gang raped in a London park.....saying she does not have "good reason," to own the gun.

A member of the House of Lords wants to quail hunt with his rich friends on his private country estate, and the British government gives him the gun....because he has "good reason."

 

[AZrailwhale]

If you have more guns and a deadlier range of guns per capita, the greater the casualties. It's not fucking rocket science.

Seriously as in - no one needs to walk around in public with a gun. Guns should be locked away when not in use. Ammo should be locked away in a separate cabinet. Thorough checks should be made when applying for a gun licence. Have severe penalties for breaching any part of that. Regulate the type of gun that's actually needed

That’s why you are a subject and I am a citizen.

 

[AZrailwhale]

You actually make a wild assumption that the one resulted in the other. Classic post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy. I'm sure you can provide "studies" that absolutely prove causality?



That would be 18 telephone "opinion polls" using small sample groups, which are then extrapolated to cover the entire country. It's called Pseudoscience. There is no way of telling how many times a gun is used in "self defence" without scientifically recording each and every incident. None of your "studies" do this. Basically, you are spouting BS.

Several of those studies come from groups critical of gun rights. Also your methodology is wrong. No study is done the way you suggest. It would be impossible.

 

[Vagabond63]

Professional researchers.....trained researchers.......working for both the government and private research institutions......

..and "professional researchers, trained researchers, etc. Conducted studies that found the opposite

The Kleck sample is 5,000 people.....a huge amount for any research sample.....dittos the DOJ study.....

Wow, 5,000 people. Was that their sample group, or the ones that bothered to respond? Out of a total population of over 300,000,000.

I listed 18 that state the numbers they found.....you say they made it up....trained researchers from both private and public research groups from the 1990s to 2020.....

I'll bet if I bothered, I could find similar numbers that refute your 18.

And yet these methods are used to find out much of what we know today about every aspect of life....

Oh please, total BS. They're opinion polls at best. There's no hard empirical data involved.

...you don't like people who own guns...

Wow, before 1997, I was a member of two gun clubs and owned 3 handguns. I went shooting on the club ranges at least once a week, it was fun and I enjoyed myself with a great bunch of like minded people, all responsible gun owners. I even joined in the protests against the handgun ban, so please STFU.

 

[Vagabond63]

Also your methodology is wrong. No study is done the way you suggest.

Really? Care to elaborate?

 

[AZrailwhale]

Really? Care to elaborate?

Show me a study where the people conducting the study interviewed EVERY possible person involved. Studies are always taken of representative samples of the affected group. Even FDA approved drug studies use representative groups.

 

[2aguy]

..and "professional researchers, trained researchers, etc. Conducted studies that found the opposite

Wow, 5,000 people. Was that their sample group, or the ones that bothered to respond? Out of a total population of over 300,000,000.

I'll bet if I bothered, I could find similar numbers that refute your 18.

Oh please, total BS. They're opinion polls at best. There's no hard empirical data involved.

Wow, before 1997, I was a member of two gun clubs and owned 3 handguns. I went shooting on the club ranges at least once a week, it was fun and I enjoyed myself with a great bunch of like minded people, all responsible gun owners. I even joined in the protests against the handgun ban, so please STFU.

Yeah....still haven't answered these....

A woman is grabbed by a violent serial rapist at a bus stop, a train platform or in her apartment...he plans on beating, raping and murdering her. She has a gun, and can stop the rape with the gun......

Do you want her to use that gun to stop the rape?

A woman stops an attack with a gun, a brutal rape, torture and murder...in a public space....if you had the ability to go back in time, and prevent her from having that gun...would you?
------
The British government will not allow a woman to own and carry a gun to prevent being gang raped in a London park.....saying she does not have "good reason," to own the gun.

A member of the House of Lords wants to quail hunt with his rich friends on his private country estate, and the British government gives him the gun....because he has "good reason."

This makes sense to you?

 

[2aguy]

..and "professional researchers, trained researchers, etc. Conducted studies that found the opposite

Wow, 5,000 people. Was that their sample group, or the ones that bothered to respond? Out of a total population of over 300,000,000.

I'll bet if I bothered, I could find similar numbers that refute your 18.

Oh please, total BS. They're opinion polls at best. There's no hard empirical data involved.

Wow, before 1997, I was a member of two gun clubs and owned 3 handguns. I went shooting on the club ranges at least once a week, it was fun and I enjoyed myself with a great bunch of like minded people, all responsible gun owners. I even joined in the protests against the handgun ban, so please STFU.

Again......actual researchers from both the government and private research groups.....you don't like that what they found shows you have no rational argument.....so you dismiss their work........

 

[Vagabond63]

...so you dismiss their work...

Not at all, I just challenge pseudoscience and bad practice where I find it. Both Lott and Kleck are derided in academia because of their poor methodology. They are just latched onto by gullible pro-gun fanatics and the gun industry to give their warped world view "credibility" and to increase gun sales.

 

[Vagabond63]

Show me a study where the people conducting the study interviewed EVERY possible person involved. Studies are always taken of representative samples of the affected group. Even FDA approved drug studies use representative groups.

I'm well aware of how studies are conducted, and I don't expect every possible person to be interviewed/questioned/polled. I do expect, however, that researchers show responsibility and integrity in the models that the construct from their samples. Kleck, for example, asked 5000 people if they or a member of their household had used a gun for self protection in the preceeding year. 50, yes, 50, answered "yes" and as if by magic Kleck concluded that 2.5 million DGUs occur every year in America... he was laughed off the stage and was forced to play around with his model to obtain a much reduced figure, which is still widely considered suspect.

 

[2aguy]

Not at all, I just challenge pseudoscience and bad practice where I find it. Both Lott and Kleck are derided in academia because of their poor methodology. They are just latched onto by gullible pro-gun fanatics and the gun industry to give their warped world view "credibility" and to increase gun sales.

No, they are attacked by left wing, anti-gun extremists because their research showw the anti-gun hysteria is crap.

18 studies that support Klecks work.....one feom the CDC and one from the Departmemt of Justice.....and you just dismiss them...

You are a doofus

 

[2aguy]

I'm well aware of how studies are conducted, and I don't expect every possible person to be interviewed/questioned/polled. I do expect, however, that researchers show responsibility and integrity in the models that the construct from their samples. Kleck, for example, asked 5000 people if they or a member of their household had used a gun for self protection in the preceeding year. 50, yes, 50, answered "yes" and as if by magic Kleck concluded that 2.5 million DGUs occur every year in America... he was laughed off the stage and was forced to play around with his model to obtain a much reduced figure, which is still widely considered suspect.

You make things up, and expect us ro take you seriously. Kleck never
changed his research, that was anti-gunner david kellerman who was forced to change his numbers you doofus.

 

[2aguy]

I'm well aware of how studies are conducted, and I don't expect every possible person to be interviewed/questioned/polled. I do expect, however, that researchers show responsibility and integrity in the models that the construct from their samples. Kleck, for example, asked 5000 people if they or a member of their household had used a gun for self protection in the preceeding year. 50, yes, 50, answered "yes" and as if by magic Kleck concluded that 2.5 million DGUs occur every year in America... he was laughed off the stage and was forced to play around with his model to obtain a much reduced figure, which is still widely considered suspect.

Still waiting.........as you dodge, duck and weave to avoid answering difficult questions...

A woman is grabbed by a violent serial rapist at a bus stop, a train platform or in her apartment...he plans on beating, raping and murdering her. She has a gun, and can stop the rape with the gun......

Do you want her to use that gun to stop the rape?

A woman stops an attack with a gun, a brutal rape, torture and murder...in a public space....if you had the ability to go back in time, and prevent her from having that gun...would you?
-------

The British government will not allow a woman to own and carry a gun to prevent being gang raped in a London park.....saying she does not have "good reason," to own the gun.

A member of the House of Lords wants to quail hunt with his rich friends on his private country estate, and the British government gives him the gun....because he has "good reason."

Does this make sense to you?

 

[Vagabond63]

No, they are attacked by left wing, anti-gun extremists because their research showw the anti-gun hysteria is crap.

As opposed to the right wing fundamentalist gun fanatics who attack studies that contradict Kleck/Lott because they demonstrate that the pro-gun hysteria is insanely crap.

..one feom the CDC and one from the Departmemt of Justice...

CDC never carried out a study, neither did the DoJ, but hey what are facts to right wing fundamentalist gun fanatics?

that was anti-gunner david kellerman

Who? I assume you are talking about Arthur Kellerman?

 

[Vagabond63]

Still waiting.........as you dodge, duck and weave to avoid answering difficult questions...

Nope, just waiting for a difficult question to appear, not happened yet.

Can't help but notice that you post these inane fantasy scenario non questions, every time I debunk your "arguments", in a pathetic attempt to deflect from the issues discussed. Sad.

 

[2aguy]

As opposed to the right wing fundamentalist gun fanatics who attack studies that contradict Kleck/Lott because they demonstrate that the pro-gun hysteria is insanely crap.

CDC never carried out a study, neither did the DoJ, but hey what are facts to right wing fundamentalist gun fanatics?

Who? I assume you are talking about Arthur Kellerman?

The CDC buried their stats....because they were too high....and along the lines of what Kleck found.....you doofus.....

 

[2aguy]

Nope, just waiting for a difficult question to appear, not happened yet.

Can't help but notice that you post these inane fantasy scenario non questions, every time I debunk your "arguments", in a pathetic attempt to deflect from the issues discussed. Sad.

Just showing that where your beliefs go, innocent victims suffer.......

A woman is grabbed by a violent serial rapist at a bus stop, a train platform or in her apartment...he plans on beating, raping and murdering her. She has a gun, and can stop the rape with the gun......

Do you want her to use that gun to stop the rape?

A woman stops an attack with a gun, a brutal rape, torture and murder...in a public space....if you had the ability to go back in time, and prevent her from having that gun...would you?

The British government will not allow a woman to own and carry a gun to prevent being gang raped in a London park.....saying she does not have "good reason," to own the gun.

A member of the House of Lords wants to quail hunt with his rich friends on his private country estate, and the British government gives him the gun....because he has "good reason."

 

[Vagabond63]

Just showing that where your beliefs go, innocent victims suffer.......

Really? You have no idea what my beliefs are, as usual you just make things up as you go. As for innocent victims...please! How may people have been shot in the USA this week, by people who until they took out their gun and pulled the trigger were "normal" citizens?

 

[Vagabond63]

The CDC buried their stats...

No they didn't

along the lines of what Kleck found...

ROFL! Kleck ESTIMATED (guessed) from a tiny sample, that between 2.1 and 2.5 million DGUs occurred. He never gave any definitive figure, neither did any of the other studies, thats why the figures are so varied. You're just making this up again, as usual.

 

[2aguy]

No they didn't

ROFL! Kleck ESTIMATED (guessed) from a tiny sample, that between 2.1 and 2.5 million DGUs occurred. He never gave any definitive figure, neither did any of the other studies, thats why the figures are so varied. You're just making this up again, as usual.

And his research was backed up by the Centers for Disease Control, and the Department of Justice who did their own research to refute his work....and simply confirmed what he found.......

A quick guide to the studies and the numbers.....the full lay out of what was studied by each study is in the links....

The name of the group doing the study, the year of the study, the number of defensive gun uses and if police and military defensive gun uses are included.....notice the bill clinton and obama defensive gun use research is highlighted.....

GunCite-Gun Control-How Often Are Guns Used in Self-Defense

GunCite Frequency of Defensive Gun Use in Previous Surveys

Field...1976....3,052,717 ( no cops, no military)

DMIa 1978...2,141,512 ( no cops, no military)

L.A. TIMES...1994...3,609,68 ( no cops, no military)

Kleck......1994...2.5 million ( no cops, no military)

2021 national firearm survey, Prof. William English, PhD. designed by Deborah Azrael of Harvard T. Chan School of public policy, and Mathew Miller, Northeastern university.......1.67 million defensive uses annually.

CDC...1996-1998... 1.1 million averaged over those years.( no cops, no military)

Obama's CDC....2013....500,000--3million

--------------------


Bordua...1977...1,414,544

DMIb...1978...1,098,409 ( no cops, no military)

Hart...1981...1.797,461 ( no cops, no military)

Mauser...1990...1,487,342 ( no cops,no military)

Gallup...1993...1,621,377 ( no cops, no military)

DEPT. OF JUSTICE...1994...1.5 million ( the bill clinton study)

Journal of Quantitative Criminology--- 989,883 times per year."

(Based on survey data from a 2000 study published in the Journal of Quantitative Criminology,[17] U.S. civilians use guns to defend themselves and others from crime at least 989,883 times per year.[18])

Paper: "Measuring Civilian Defensive Firearm Use: A Methodological Experiment." By David McDowall and others. Journal of Quantitative Criminology, March 2000. Measuring Civilian Defensive Firearm Use: A Methodological Experiment - Springer


-------------------------------------------

Ohio...1982...771,043

Gallup...1991...777,152

Tarrance... 1994... 764,036 (no cops, no military)

Lawerence Southwich Jr. 400,000 fewer violent crimes and at least 800,000 violent crimes deterred..

2021 national firearms survey..

The survey was designed by Deborah Azrael of the Harvard T.H. Chan School of Public Health, and Matthew Miller of Northeastern University,
----
The survey further finds that approximately a third of gun owners (31.1%) have used a firearm to defend themselves or their property, often on more than one occasion, and it estimates that guns are used defensively by firearms owners in approximately 1.67 million incidents per year. Handguns are the most common firearm employed for self-defense (used in 65.9% of defensive incidents), and in most defensive incidents (81.9%) no shot was fired. Approximately a quarter (25.2%) of defensive incidents occurred within the gun owner's home, and approximately half (53.9%) occurred outside their home, but on their property. About one out of ten (9.1%) defensive gun uses occurred in public, and about one out of twenty (4.8%) occurred at work.
2021 National Firearms Survey