Greatest of all time: Position by Position

[Article 15]

Mush as it pains me to admit it, Pedro Martinez in his prime with Boston is at least on par and probably better than Bob Gibson. In the most degenerate "let 'eh hit mo' homers than ever before and a 5.0 ERA is average" system Pedro had a consistent ERA sub 2.

It's like Gretzky in 81

When you take into consideration the mound being lowered, the DH rule, and the rampid steroid use going on during Pedro's prime years he may very well be the best ever.

Longivity is an issue with him.

I would not include him in the best ever, or even the top ten.

Allow me to ammend that then. At his peak he may have been the best ever though not in terms of complete body of work.

 

[Xenophon]

There is also the possibility Pedro was juicing himself, ala Clemens.

 

[elvis]

Barry Bonds isn't even in Ted Williams' league.

He couldn't carry Ted's jock strap without being juiced.

 

[Xenophon]

Since it still annoys me that someone tried to claim one of the all time major league greats is 'not in the same league' with a guy who never played in the majors, Bill Dickey's stats:

Bill Dickey Statistics and History - Baseball-Reference.com

He was right, Gibson and him are not in the same league, Dickey, a 7 time WS champ and 11 time allstar is light years ahead of ol Josh.

 

[Article 15]

There is also the possibility Pedro was juicing himself, ala Clemens.

*plugs ears*
LALALALALALALALA I can't hear you!

 

[Article 15]

Did anyone show my boy Sandy Koufax some love?

 

[Xenophon]

I haven't gotten in to the pitchers yet, for one seaon there are a lot of good picks.

 

[Fatality]

will the thrill at first

Will Clark Statistics and History - Baseball-Reference.com

because i can

 

[Truthspeaker]

Snub Ted, arguably the greatest hitter of all time, for the guy who's skull continued to grow into his early 40s.

Yeah ...

numbers don't lie.

 

[xotoxi]

6. Josh Gibson-c concrete stats unavailable. Career lifetime average between .354 and .387. Over 800 lifetime homers. Rocket arm.

Better than Johnny Bench? BA .567, 1,567 HR, 10,355 SB

Better than Carlton Fisk? BA .897, 78,445 HR, 100,000,001 SB

 

[Oddball]

I got Mays, Williams and Frank Robinson in the outfield.....With Clemente in reserve.

 

[CrusaderFrank]

Snub Ted, arguably the greatest hitter of all time, for the guy who's skull continued to grow into his early 40s.

Yeah ...

And he spent 5 of his prime years in the military.

My Dad was a NY Giant fan but he never missed a chance to go to Yankee Stadium when the Sox were there with Ted Williams

In the mid-70, his daughter, my sister would hang out in Yankee Stadium when the Sox were in wearing a Custom T Shirt that said:

Fisk Eats Rice

 

[Truthspeaker]

Barry Bonds isn't even in Ted Williams' league.

Numbers don't lie. Ted is a step below Bonds. The only thing Ted has on him is batting average. It stops there. You can't even say that he drove in more runs(he did) because he consistently would get about 150-200 more at bats than Bond's. This one is not close. Don't let your dislike of him cloud your judgment. I don't like him either, but don't be a fool.

Nothing is clouding my judgement.

You show your ignorance by calling me a fool for saying Bonds isn't in Ted Williams' league.

Your Red Sox rabies is clouding your judgment. Let's compare the two,

Bonds best season avg. .370, Ted's best season avg .406

Bond's best season HR 73(ML Record); Ted's best season HR 43(only once did he ever top 40. though he may have done it once or twice more during his 4 year absence in the military. Bonds did it 8 times.)

Bond best RBI total 137(in just 476 ab); Ted's best RBI total 159(in 566 ab)
which would be 3.47 ab per rbi, while ted's avg is 3.56 ab per rbi. Close but no cigar.

Bonds best run total 129 , Williams best run total 150

Bond's best triples total 9, Williams best triples total 14

Bond best doules total 38, Williams best doubles total 44

Bond's best walks total 232(ML Record), Williams best walks total 162

Bonds best slugging % .863(ML Record), Ted Williams best slugging %.735

Bonds best obp ina full season .609(ML Record), Ted's best obp .551(amazing but not close to Bonds)

Bond's best steals total 52, Ted's best steals total 4

Bond's gold gloves 8, Ted's gold gloves 0

Bond's MVP's 7(ML Record), Ted's MVP's 2( Though he may have earned one 1 or two more during the war years.)

The fact is clear Bonds is a better player as a whole because in the major categories provided Bonds has the edge 8 to 4. Williams is a better avg hitter, and slightly better with doubles, triples and runs.

Bonds also has the major league record for homeruns in a world series. Notice all the records Bonds set?

If Ted Williams is supposed to be "the greatest hitter of all time", then why doesn't he own even 1 single record of any kind? That's because he played in Boston and it's all the beantowners squawking their bias.

And don't give me the tired squealing about steroids. I think we all realize it was and still is a level playing field with everybody being on the stuff.

Truth-speaker, I am.

 

[Oddball]

Bonds also cheated.

 

[Truthspeaker]

What you just posted is ludicrous.

Berra won THREE MVP awards.

THREE.

Dickey won two of them.

Gibson wasn't given a chance. But he was acknowledged by all his peers including white players. Mantle came close to hitting a ball out of old Yankee stadium. Gibson actually is on record for doing it.

The idea in barnstorming was to give the locals a thrill, it was not a 'real' game nor a stat

.
You can say that, but you don't understand the mindset of white people back then. They were elitists. The last thing they wanted to do was lose to the black guys. They played those games hard. Don't let the word barnstorming fool you. The game itself is designed to give fans a thrill. That's the point of a spectator sport. So what's the difference?

Gibson has no place being listed as the 'greatest' at anything except where he played, the negro leagues.

I guess we'll never know but from all eyewitness accounts both white and black from his time, they all said he was the greatest catcher of all time. When the general population goes on record and in print as labeling him "the black Babe Ruth", there has to be some truth to it. Do you need quotes?

The proof is when the leagues integrated the black players were not superior to the white ones.

That's a dumb statement. They were all immediately competetive. Jackie Robinson was the first modern black player in the league but quite quickly he won an MVP. That tells you they're all equal. Barry Bonds is black and holds the record for the most mvp's. Please don't try and say white players were better than blacks or vice versa, they were just separated. Now their mingled and you can see the competetive equality.

in 1936 Bill Dickey hit .362 with 22 HR with 107 RBIs and only struck out 16 times.]

It's all relative, Gibson's lifetime .avg at the worst was .356 with a few times over .400. He is credited with topping 70 homers 3 times and averaged 160 rbis. Don't come at Gibson with Bill Dickey. An exceptional player, but not in the all time greatest 9.

 

[Truthspeaker]

I know it's the wrong sport but I would say Jerry Rice WR SF 49ers.

Please. make a seperate thread.

 

[Truthspeaker]

How does Bonds get to be considered better than just about ANYONE these days?

Unless someone can prove that the great throwback players like Ted were shooting roids into their ass, Bonds loses all credibility when put up against them.

Truth, you're telling people not to let something cloud their judgement, meanwhile you're obviously letting the fact that Bonds was on your team for most of his career cloud YOURS.

Paulie numbers don't lie. If Bond's was the only one doing the roids you would have a point. But we all know now that everyone was guilty, especially the greats of our time. Whatever distance Bonds gained on his fly balls was negated by the pitchers park he played in. Many of his homers challenging the deepest part of the yard. Ted Williams may not have been on roids but he played in a homerdome in boston and still only topped 40 homers once in his career. It's not close.

 

[Truthspeaker]

I'll be back with my list later.

I'd think the list should take into consideration offense AND defense. The all-time team should consist of well-rounded players.

that's why i posted my stats for defense on my first post. That's why I have gold glovers at every position.

 

[Truthspeaker]

Mush as it pains me to admit it, Pedro Martinez in his prime with Boston is at least on par and probably better than Bob Gibson. In the most degenerate "let 'eh hit mo' homers than ever before and a 5.0 ERA is average" system Pedro had a consistent ERA sub 2.

It's like Gretzky in 81

It's a worthy comparison, but the numbers are still heavily in Gibsons favor. We would have to see what pedro would do with skinnier hitters and a mound 12 inches higher. I don't, however, think pedro could throw as hard as Gibson. And neither of them is the equal of Christy Matthewson.

 

[Oddball]

How does Bonds get to be considered better than just about ANYONE these days?

Unless someone can prove that the great throwback players like Ted were shooting roids into their ass, Bonds loses all credibility when put up against them.

Truth, you're telling people not to let something cloud their judgement, meanwhile you're obviously letting the fact that Bonds was on your team for most of his career cloud YOURS.

Paulie numbers don't lie. If Bond's was the only one doing the roids you would have a point. But we all know now that everyone was guilty, especially the greats of our time. Whatever distance Bonds gained on his fly balls was negated by the pitchers park he played in. Many of his homers challenging the deepest part of the yard. Ted Williams may not have been on roids but he played in a homerdome in boston and still only topped 40 homers once in his career. It's not close.

Of course, Williams spending five of his most potentially productive years serving his country has nothing to do with anything here.

And the juice didn't make it onto the scene until the late '70s to early '80s...Well after Williams was out of the game.

Back in his day, a lot of the players were into the amphetamines.