Greatest of all time: Position by Position

[Gunny]

Anyone who knows baseball in the remotest knows that Barry had the talent anyway. He was keeping up with the rest of the league. Stop villainizing him for something everyone was doing. He was an asshole, but he was better than all the rest. Get over your personal dislike for him and realize that the numbers don't

Ted Williams played in a homerdome all his career. If Bonds' distances were affected by the juice, the pitchers parks at AT&T and Candlestick as well as old three rivers, made up the distance gap. The fact is Bonds swung at HIS pitches. Steroids didn't help him hit the fat part of the bat. His homers were so far over the fence that if you take the extra distance off(10 feet at the most) he still breaks Aaron's record.

Add to the fact that the best pitchers in the game were juicers too and he raked everybody.

Do I really look fat? This is a current picture of myself. I've been playing sports, specifically hardball for the last 25 years. I currently manage and play for the East Bay Lumberjacks Semi Pro Team in California East Bay Lumberjacks. I had my first down year recovering from surgery but still led the team in homers and RBI. I don't have a fat ass.

Y

Of course you did. You said he cheated by using steroids. Obviously you think he wouldn't have hit the home runs without them. I'm not dumb.
You're really surprising me since you've always seemed to have common sense in all the rest of your posts. I guess nobody's perfect.


You made it clear in no uncertain terms plus you are about to say it again that Bond's wasn't going to hit the home runs without the steroids. You obviously think his hitting technique is not good enough on it's own to hit the homers.



See I told you you were about to say it. Steroids do not equal power. A little later I am going to provide the mitchell report with all the names on it. You'll notice a lot o bottom of the barrel guys that didn't get better because of the roids. Since I'm also a certified personal trainer, I know a thing or two about which steroids do what to your body. The ones used by Bonds were primarily responsible for keeping him healthier and therefore younger, than he would have been. They helped him recover from injuries much faster and allowed him to workout in the gym longer without fatigue. So he still had to put the time into the gym. It's not the steroids that get you stronger, it's the extra time in the gym it allows you. It repairs your muscles faster. If you claim to know about playing ball so much, then you know that hitting homers is ALL about technique and not as much about physical strength.



I'm going out to dinner with my family but everyone here knows I'll be back on here with the mitchell report and the names of all the people exposed. I'm very surprised you haven't heard all the positive tests.






If any of those teams played today's top college team, they would be sent to the ER every last freakin one of them. All of them were way too small. That's the dumbest thing I've EVER heard.


You better believe it. And live over for all the remaining parapalegic 70's players


Humans are smart, the guys today would pick it up just the same if they had to learn that way too.


blame the league, not bonds. The whole league was and is corrupt.


More like keeping up with what everyone else was doing. get over the fact that baseball players are trying to keep a multi million dollar job by keeping up with everyone else getting a competitive edge. You'd do it too, if not, you wouldn't be in the league.

Y

our whole argument here is full of shit. Bonds should be getting the treatment Pete Rose has gotten. He's every bit as much if not more a cheater.

numbers don't lie, context doesn't lie. Pete Rose was a gambler, not a cheating baseball player.

You can play your little exapand-a-post game with someone else as well. I most certainly did not say steroids had anything to do with Bonds' technique. That is an assumption on your part, coming to an illogical conclusion.

I didn't say Bonds wasn't going to hit any hom runs without steroids either. You need to learn to read. You're tapdancing, arguing against what I'm NOT saying rather than addressing what I AM saying.

You can save your little class on steroids. I've read extensively on them, and was around people that used them for probably longer than you've been on this planet. The HELL steroids don't equal power. That is as ignorant as it gets.

I'm well-aware there are different classes of steroids for different purposes. Your little song and dance about "keeping him healthier" is a snow job you need to try pulling on someone else. He packed on 30 or 40 pounds of muscle and I guess you're now going to say THAT doesn't have anything to do with power?

You're swinging in the wind, trying to defend the indefensible. He's a cheater.

Enjoy your dinner. I'm going out drinking.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Ryan was a great pitcher. When Koufax developed command with control, he became a pitcher over a four year period that compared with Christy Mathewson, Warren Sphann, and Lefty Grove. If Ryan had command to go with control as good as Koufax, he would have struck out 7,000 batters and won 500 games. Nolan was great, Sandy was better.

 

[rightwinger]

Ryan was a great pitcher. When Koufax developed command with control, he became a pitcher over a four year period that compared with Christy Mathewson, Warren Sphann, and Lefty Grove. If Ryan had command to go with control as good as Koufax, he would have struck out 7,000 batters and won 500 games. Nolan was great, Sandy was better.

Nolan Ryan had great stuff but he was his own worst enemy. When you strike out 14 batters but walk 8 you are going to lose. That was Nolan Ryan in the 70s. He didn't have that killer instinct to close out the win. He would walk two guys then give up a double and lose the game.
If I had a game I had to win, I could name 20 Pitchers I personally saw that I would rather have pitch than Nolan Ryan

 

[Truthspeaker]

You should be slapped Wins are one of the worst ways to judge the quality of a pitcher. I'll give you another example of how numbers don't .


"Pitchers better than Nolan Ryan" career era:3.19(most of his years in the AL), best year 1.69(NL). Best AL year 2.28. career k's 5714(record), best year 383(AL). Career avg against .204, best year 1.71(AL), 222 complete games, 61 shutouts. best year, 20 cg, 9sho(AL).
Also the only man ever to hit 104 on the radar gun.

Let's compare them to Ryan shall we?:

Bob Gibson: Probably the closest competition to Ryan in your group.

2.92 career era in NL(not better than Ryan's in AL) best year 1.12(equal to Ryan's 1.69 because his mound was a foot higher.) K's best season was 270, over 100 less than Ryan's best. Career obviously goes to Ryan. 255 career cg's, 56. comparable, but inferior to Ryan especially since he's in the NL. Career avg against .226. versus NL teams, best year .184. Not close to Ryan.

Tom Seaver- Nice pitcher. Inferior to Ryan. The only thing close is his era. A few entirely National League points lower. checking the stats would be a waste of time. You can do it if you want to disprove yourself.

Juan Marichal- I'm a Giants fan so I love Juan. But he's no Ryan. The stats aren't even close. Almost a carbon copy of Seaver's comparison.

Steve Carlton: love this guy, but he's no Ryan either. Career Era 3.27, best era 1.97, career K's 2nd to Ryan, best year, 310, 63 short of Ryans best. Career avg against, .240, best year was .206, a far cry from Ryan. 254 cg's 55 shutouts, inferior to Ryan.

Greg Maddox: Interesting, but this is not close
Maddux career era 3.16(inferior because of the NL) best season a worthy 1.56 but only barely better than Ryan's . Half the cg's and shutouts, batters hit a surprising .250 off him in his career. Best season avg against was .197. All against the inferior NL offense

Randy Johnson. Also interesting.
Career era 3.29, best year 2.28, 4869 career k's(still 900 short of the Express), best year an impressive 372(versus NL hitters)best AL year(308). Both inferior to the train. less than half the cg's and shutouts. career avg against .221, best year, an AL .191.

Sandy Koufax: This should be interesting. In fact I would venture to say he's closer than Gibson.

Probably the only comparable era comparison 2.76 in the National League. I'll say even. I'll say their cg's and shutouts are comparable as well even though Sandy's number total half of Ryans. He pitched half as long as Ryan. career average against is 2.05 in the NL. Almost as impressive as Ryans 2.04. His best year the NL hit just .179 against him. 10 points higher than Ryan's. That same year he had 1 less strikeout than Ryan's career best. But again Ryan's best was in the AL and still higher. 4 no hitters to Ryan's 7.(plus he had a higher mound like Gibson)

Pedro Martinez- Pedro has a clear lead in the era dept. career 2.91, best year 1.74(AL), But this needs to be taken with a grain of salt because Pedro doesn't really go past the 7th inning much, even in his prime, so he likely would have given up a few more runs if he pitched as deep into games as Ryan, so to me I'd still take Ryan for his durability and intimidation factor. Next category, over 2500 fewer career k's, his best year 313(AL). Career batting avg against .214. best year a slightly better 1.67.
You can make an argument for Pedro, but he never threw a no hitter and Ryan threw 7.
Advantage Ryan

Old School Pitchers better than Ryan
Christy Mathewson- I barely agree
Walter Johnson-I ever so barely agree.
Grover Alexander- Disagree.

Great talking baseball with you and you do your homework.

One question....did you see Nolan Ryan pitch in his prime? He was a better pitcher at the end of his career than in his prime years. That is why I list Randy Johnsin higher. Johnson eventually found the plate Ryan struggled most of his career.
In his prime years in the 70s Ryan killed himself with walks. Teams feared Ryan but they still thought they could beat him. Being an "unlucky" pitcher for 27 years just doesn't happen. Sooner or later you put up a killer season...Ryan never did
Look at Ryan in his prime and ask which contemporaries would not be traded even up for Ryan. Seaver- never, Gibson- never, Carlton- never, Palmer- maybe, Hunter- maybe

Ryan looks good over a 27 yr career, even if his wins suck
Look at his five best years
1981 11-5 1.69 ERA (not a full season)
1972 19-16 2.28 ERA
1973 21-16 2.87 ERA
1974 22-16 2.89 ERA
1977 19-16 2.77 ERA

Each of the pitchers I listed has a superior "Best 5"

Since you are a Giants fan, lets look at Juan Marichal who I also saw pitch

1969 21- 11 2.10 ERA
1965 22-13 2.13 ERA
1966 25-6 2.23 ERA
1963 25-8 2.41 ERA
1968 26-9 2.43 ERA

I wouldn't take a single one of Nolan Ryans top 5 years over Juan Marichals. I saw both pitch. Marichal was a bull and would close out the win. Ryan would find a way to lose

lack of Wins in Ryan's case were a result of his playing for bad teams. To my knowledge his teams never reached the world series. I'd like to argue the point further but we'll never know because he never donned the uniform of a winner. He was not an everyday player so he gets a pass.

He was simply the most unhittable guy ever. That's why I take him. I love Marichal even though I never saw him pitch. I hope Lincecum can be as good as him.

 

[Truthspeaker]

I'm well-aware there are different classes of steroids for different purposes. Your little song and dance about "keeping him healthier" is a snow job you need to try pulling on someone else. He packed on 30 or 40 pounds of muscle and I guess you're now going to say THAT doesn't have anything to do with power?

It sure didn't hurt him, be we all know he had multiple 40 plus homer seasons before he started juicing. Being a baseball player myself and not unaccustomed to hitting homeruns, I've played 20 lbs of muscle lighter than I am now and it didn't affect my ability to hit homeruns. It may have lengthened out the distance of my longest homers but I don't really need the extra distance. You're talking about adding 10-20 feet max of extra distance for steroid users. The technique is the all important factor. But I will say the biggest boost a guy gets from steroids is the confidence. confidence is the most important thing in baseball.

You're swinging in the wind, trying to defend the indefensible. He's a cheater.

No Gunny, I'm right on. Do I think Bonds is dishonest? Yes, but no more than the rest of the league. Therefore I contend there was a level playing field. As far as calling him a cheater, I don't know if that's the correct word to use when everyone else is doing it. Cheating would be stealing information, like signs, relaying pitches(which everyone tries to do). Old school players were rife with cheaters as much as today what with their spit balls, fixed games, literally cutting corners running the bases if the umpire wasn't watching, grabbing belts of baserunners when the ump isn't watching, etc. "Cheating", whether you want to admit it or not, is part of the game, even if it shouldn't be.

I don't like how pious guys like you sound when you judge human beings in the steroids era. When you're in their position 99% of you hypocrites would do the exact same thing. so cut with the o holier than thou crap. "cheater, cheater, cheater, neener, neener, neener."

It happens every game in every sport when a team benefits from a blown call and doesn't admit to the ump. I don't see any managers going out and telling the umpire, "Ya know blue... my guy was really out by a half a step and it wasn't close. So I'm gonna take him off the bases."

Until I see a player or manager do something like that in a game, I say they're all dishonest. So get over it.
Enjoy your dinner. I'm going out drinking.[/QUOTE]

 

[Truthspeaker]

Ryan was a great pitcher. When Koufax developed command with control, he became a pitcher over a four year period that compared with Christy Mathewson, Warren Sphann, and Lefty Grove. If Ryan had command to go with control as good as Koufax, he would have struck out 7,000 batters and won 500 games. Nolan was great, Sandy was better.

It's definitely debatable. Everyone has their weakness, Ryan's was walks. But he's still the most unhittable pitcher of all time, hence the no hitters.

But the main point is this:

What 9 would you have in their prime, even if it was just one year, if you had to win one big game?

 

[Fatality]

Ryan was a great pitcher. When Koufax developed command with control, he became a pitcher over a four year period that compared with Christy Mathewson, Warren Sphann, and Lefty Grove. If Ryan had command to go with control as good as Koufax, he would have struck out 7,000 batters and won 500 games. Nolan was great, Sandy was better.

It's definitely debatable. Everyone has their weakness, Ryan's was walks. But he's still the most unhittable pitcher of all time, hence the no hitters.

But the main point is this:

What 9 would you have in their prime, even if it was just one year, if you had to win one big game?

in their prime for just one year?

pitcher

Orel Hershiser (1988)

 

[Truthspeaker]

in their prime for just one year?

pitcher

Orel Hershiser (1988)

Coming from a Giant's fan?!!! Are are you just a closet Dodger?

By the way, gimme the rest of your team. Hope there's no dodgers on it.

 

[Fatality]

in their prime for just one year?

pitcher

Orel Hershiser (1988)

Coming from a Giant's fan?!!! Are are you just a closet Dodger?

By the way, gimme the rest of your team. Hope there's no dodgers on it.

lol, giants fan? nope! i liked some of the players that were with the giants back some years. i like the angels and dodgers though i rarely get to see any of the games. did get to see the angels beat up the dodgers 10-4 this past spring training.

as for the rest of the team ill have to think about it more since its just in their prime or their best year.

saturday night went to the diamondbacks game and watched colorado pound them into the ground...amazingly the score was 10-4, so the two games ive been to this year both had a score of 10-4, hows that for a stat!

 

[Truthspeaker]

My team is apparently unbeatable since no one has brought a full team against mine yet.

 

[CrusaderFrank]

Ryan was a great pitcher. When Koufax developed command with control, he became a pitcher over a four year period that compared with Christy Mathewson, Warren Sphann, and Lefty Grove. If Ryan had command to go with control as good as Koufax, he would have struck out 7,000 batters and won 500 games. Nolan was great, Sandy was better.

It's definitely debatable. Everyone has their weakness, Ryan's was walks. But he's still the most unhittable pitcher of all time, hence the no hitters.

But the main point is this:

What 9 would you have in their prime, even if it was just one year, if you had to win one big game?

in their prime for just one year?

pitcher

Orel Hershiser (1988)

Ron Guidry 1978

 

[Truthspeaker]

It's definitely debatable. Everyone has their weakness, Ryan's was walks. But he's still the most unhittable pitcher of all time, hence the no hitters.

But the main point is this:

What 9 would you have in their prime, even if it was just one year, if you had to win one big game?

in their prime for just one year?

pitcher

Orel Hershiser (1988)

Ron Guidry 1978

Stats?