GMCGeneral
Diamond Member
Right. And the idea is NOT to earn Salvation, that issue was settled at the Cross
The idea is to bear witness to G-d's infinite grace and mercy in order to bring others to the Cross.
Zone1 Grace and Works
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The idea is to bear witness to G-d's infinite grace and mercy in order to bring others to the Cross.
Meriweather
Not all who wander are lost
- Oct 21, 2014
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So why the accusation that some denominations are "earning" salvation? We are living salvation. A big difference.
Meriweather
Not all who wander are lost
- Oct 21, 2014
- 20,416
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And I proved mine. We are obedient to our parents--and God--as often as we are either told or asked. No once counts.
GMCGeneral
Diamond Member
Because I have done research on the doctrinal heresies of pseudo Christian cults, so I am well versed on the subject. And Mormonism, as well as the others I have listed, preach a works based salvation, a false gospel.
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- #45
So you are open to a discussion on what and why we believe the things we do in relation to the bible?
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- #46
True Jesus did suffer and die to win the right to forgive our sins, but the forgiveness is not automatic.
Matthew 7:21
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Obviously God does not allow everyone into the kingdom of heaven. We are required to first do the will of our Father in heaven.
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- #47
It is true that we do not receive our salvation or justification by our works. But this does not mean that we are not required to do good works. It is through the atonement of Jesus Christ that we are saved. Only through his grace or forgiveness are we saved. Faith of itself without the grace of God cannot save either. It is only because of our faith that Jesus grants his grace which is the saving power. Faith alone does not save. Faith itself is dead without good works. But the power behind salvation is not faith alone but requires the grace of Jesus Christ before anyone can be saved.
James 2:14-26
14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
Works are a part of faith and they are required for salvation but are not the saving force behind salvation. The saving force is the grace of Jesus Christ.
Here we learn that we can gain access to the saving grace of God through having faith. Faith is not what saves us but is required to obtain the grace which is the power of salvation. A true faith requires that we also have good works. Faith with its good works can bring us access to the grace of Jesus Christ because it is his will that we exercise a true faith which includes works before he will grant his grace.
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- #48
Where in the scriptures does it ever teach that God is not an exalted man or that he does not have a body?
Genesis 1:26-27
26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
Hebrews 1:1-3
1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
If the resurrected Jesus is the express image of the person of the Father, wouldn't the Father also have an immortal body the same as Jesus? Why is Jesus and all of us blessed to have a resurrected body after death and yet is it to be looked down upon that the Father himself also has a body of flesh and bones the same as Jesus has?
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- #49
Moroni 8:8
8 Listen to the words of Christ, your Redeemer, your Lord and your God. Behold, I came into the world not to call the righteous but sinners to repentance; the whole need no physician, but they that are sick; wherefore, little children are whole, for they are not capable of committing sin; wherefore the curse of Adam is taken from them in me, that it hath no power over them; and the law of circumcision is done away in me.
The atonement of Jesus Christ did away with original sin and we are not held accountable for Adam's transgression but only for our own sins. Little children are not capable of sinning until they reach the age of accountability. They are innocent in Christ until they are capable of sinning. Here are the rest of the words of Moroni regarding this matter:
9 And after this manner did the Holy Ghost manifest the word of God unto me; wherefore, my beloved son, I know that it is solemn mockery before God, that ye should baptize little children.
10 Behold I say unto you that this thing shall ye teach—repentance and baptism unto those who are accountable and capable of committing sin; yea, teach parents that they must repent and be baptized, and humble themselves as their little children, and they shall all be saved with their little children.
11 And their little children need no repentance, neither baptism. Behold, baptism is unto repentance to the fulfilling the commandments unto the remission of sins.
12 But little children are alive in Christ, even from the foundation of the world; if not so, God is a partial God, and also a changeable God, and a respecter to persons; for how many little children have died without baptism!
13 Wherefore, if little children could not be saved without baptism, these must have gone to an endless hell.
14 Behold I say unto you, that he that supposeth that little children need baptism is in the gall of bitterness and in the bonds of iniquity; for he hath neither faith, hope, nor charity; wherefore, should he be cut off while in the thought, he must go down to hell.
15 For awful is the wickedness to suppose that God saveth one child because of baptism, and the other must perish because he hath no baptism.
16 Wo be unto them that shall pervert the ways of the Lord after this manner, for they shall perish except they repent. Behold, I speak with boldness, having authority from God; and I fear not what man can do; for perfect love casteth out all fear.
17 And I am filled with charity, which is everlasting love; wherefore, all children are alike unto me; wherefore, I love little children with a perfect love; and they are all alike and partakers of salvation.
18 For I know that God is not a partial God, neither a changeable being; but he is unchangeable from all eternity to all eternity.
19 Little children cannot repent; wherefore, it is awful wickedness to deny the pure mercies of God unto them, for they are all alive in him because of his mercy.
20 And he that saith that little children need baptism denieth the mercies of Christ, and setteth at naught the atonement of him and the power of his redemption.
21 Wo unto such, for they are in danger of death, hell, and an endless torment. I speak it boldly; God hath commanded me. Listen unto them and give heed, or they stand against you at the judgment-seat of Christ.
22 For behold that all little children are alive in Christ, and also all they that are without the law. For the power of redemption cometh on all them that have no law; wherefore, he that is not condemned, or he that is under no condemnation, cannot repent; and unto such baptism availeth nothing—
23 But it is mockery before God, denying the mercies of Christ, and the power of his Holy Spirit, and putting trust in dead works.
24 Behold, my son, this thing ought not to be; for repentance is unto them that are under condemnation and under the curse of a broken law.
Does God know the end from the beginning? Did God call Jesus Christ as the Savior of the world before the world was? Did God place the tree of knowledge of good and evil in the garden knowing full well that Adam and Eve would partake of the fruit? Did God place Satan and his followers on the earth knowing full well that they would tempt Adam and Eve to do evil? Knowing the end from the beginning God knew exactly what would occur in the Garden of Eden and yet he still placed the Devil and his minions on earth, He still planted the tree of knowledge of good and evil in the garden knowing full well the outcome, God even called Jesus as the Savior of the world long before he created this earth to atone for the sins of mankind. Do you really believe that God didn't know the end from the beginning and it was all part of His glorious plan? If God did not want the outcome, he could simply have never planted the tree in the garden nor given the command to not partake of it. He also could have placed Satan and his minions elsewhere besides on this earth. No, God knew exactly what he was doing and even called Jesus to be a Savior before the foundation of this world to save us from sin.
1 Peter 1:19-20
19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
This whole mortal life was planned out by God before the foundation of the world. The reason the fall was necessary and the atonement of Jesus was necessary is because God knew that we were weak and not perfect like himself and would fall. This earth life became an opportunity for mankind to learn good and evil and learn to choose the good over the evil. Only in this way was mankind able to progress and become more like God.
Genesis 3:22
22 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
God only gave the restriction on the tree of knowledge of good and evil to bring about the fall of mankind. God had already prepared a way of salvation from the fall. The fall allowed man to progress and gain a knowledge of good and evil and become more like God. God's world was not perfect before the fall because man was in a state of innocence not knowing good and evil. Only through going through the fall of man and through the salvation of Jesus Christ was man able to progress to more like God. The Book of Mormon teaches the following:
2 Nephi 2:14-30
14 And now, my sons, I speak unto you these things for your profit and learning; for there is a God, and he hath created all things, both the heavens and the earth, and all things that in them are, both things to act and things to be acted upon.
15 And to bring about his eternal purposes in the end of man, after he had created our first parents, and the beasts of the field and the fowls of the air, and in fine, all things which are created, it must needs be that there was an opposition; even the forbidden fruit in opposition to the tree of life; the one being sweet and the other bitter.
16 Wherefore, the Lord God gave unto man that he should act for himself. Wherefore, man could not act for himself save it should be that he was enticed by the one or the other.
17 And I, Lehi, according to the things which I have read, must needs suppose that an angel of God, according to that which is written, had fallen from heaven; wherefore, he became a devil, having sought that which was evil before God.
18 And because he had fallen from heaven, and had become miserable forever, he sought also the misery of all mankind. Wherefore, he said unto Eve, yea, even that old serpent, who is the devil, who is the father of all lies, wherefore he said: Partake of the forbidden fruit, and ye shall not die, but ye shall be as God, knowing good and evil.
19 And after Adam and Eve had partaken of the forbidden fruit they were driven out of the garden of Eden, to till the earth.
20 And they have brought forth children; yea, even the family of all the earth.
21 And the days of the children of men were prolonged, according to the will of God, that they might repent while in the flesh; wherefore, their state became a state of probation, and their time was lengthened, according to the commandments which the Lord God gave unto the children of men. For he gave commandment that all men must repent; for he showed unto all men that they were lost, because of the transgression of their parents.
22 And now, behold, if Adam had not transgressed he would not have fallen, but he would have remained in the garden of Eden. And all things which were created must have remained in the same state in which they were after they were created; and they must have remained forever, and had no end.
23 And they would have had no children; wherefore they would have remained in a state of innocence, having no joy, for they knew no misery; doing no good, for they knew no sin.
24 But behold, all things have been done in the wisdom of him who knoweth all things.
25 Adam fell that men might be; and men are, that they might have joy.
26 And the Messiah cometh in the fulness of time, that he may redeem the children of men from the fall. And because that they are redeemed from the fall they have become free forever, knowing good from evil; to act for themselves and not to be acted upon, save it be by the punishment of the law at the great and last day, according to the commandments which God hath given.
27 Wherefore, men are free according to the flesh; and all things are given them which are expedient unto man. And they are free to choose liberty and eternal life, through the great Mediator of all men, or to choose captivity and death, according to the captivity and power of the devil; for he seeketh that all men might be miserable like unto himself.
28 And now, my sons, I would that ye should look to the great Mediator, and hearken unto his great commandments; and be faithful unto his words, and choose eternal life, according to the will of his Holy Spirit;
29 And not choose eternal death, according to the will of the flesh and the evil which is therein, which giveth the spirit of the devil power to captivate, to bring you down to hell, that he may reign over you in his own kingdom.
30 I have spoken these few words unto you all, my sons, in the last days of my probation; and I have chosen the good part, according to the words of the prophet. And I have none other object save it be the everlasting welfare of your souls. Amen.
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- #50
So you don't believe that God has ever placed a curse upon mankind? The fall of mankind was curse of death but was later to be redeemed through the resurrection of all mankind. The earth itself was cursed and eventually will be redeemed and become a celestial sphere. None but the children of Israel were allowed to share in the gospel and receive membership in the church until after the days of Jesus Christ. For 4 thousand years the Gentiles were not allowed fellowship among the house of Israel. Not even during the ministry of Christ was the gospel to go unto the Gentiles. We believe that the Canaanites, who were a black people were cursed from the priesthood until the time that God would restore that blessing unto them. That blessing came in 1978. They have always been allowed to be members of the church since its restoration but the priesthood wasn't to come until 1978. Now all men on earth can receive the priesthood of God.
Official Declaration 2
Did you consider Jesus a bigot for not allowing the Gentiles to have the gospel until after his earthly ministry? Why not?
Like I have shown you in Matthew 7:21, God does require that we must do the will of God before he will save us into the kingdom of heaven.
Matthew 7:21
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
I, nor the scriptures of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, have declared that we are saved by our works. This is the purpose of this thread. Our faith nor our works are the saving force behind salvation. It is only by the grace of Jesus Christ that we are saved. However, as Matthew 7:21 tells us above, unless we do those works and have the faith God may not grant his grace upon us. All through the Bible good works are taught. We are taught to do good to our fellow man, we are taught to repent and to forgive one another, we are taught to pray and seek the grace of God for our sins. All these things are good works. True, they do not save us but they are taught and are required by God for us to do. The will of God is that we do these good works. God wishes that we would keep his commandments and follow in the footsteps of Jesus Christ and bless the lives of others. The works and faith are not the saving force as some in the past of thought and were preached against but that does not mean that they are essential for us to do. God grants the saving force of grace upon those who do his will and seek to be a good being. It is by GRACE that we are saved after all we can do.
Never has God proclaimed that there was an end to his words. Never has God said that he would never give any more revelation to man. We believe that the Old Testament and the New Testament are the word of God but that some parts of it have been lost in translation over time. Jesus words have not passed away. They continue to be revealed through his servants the prophets. Some have mistakenly believed that because of what was written in the Book of Revelation that God would no more reveal anymore of his words.
Revelation 22:18-19
18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
The above was written the Apostle John regarding the Book of Revelation. Some have supposed it applied to the Bible and that no more revelations from God could be had. But when John wrote the Book of Revelation it was not even a part of the Bible. The curse applies only to the Book of Revelation.
Joseph Smith, as a true prophet of God has gone through the Bible and corrected some mistranslations and deletions of the Bible. He also brought forth the record of the tribe of Manasseh through the power of God known as the Book of Mormon and also receive many other revelations from God. Joseph Smith is proof that the word of God has not passed away but through God's prophets is still being revealed to man on earth.
This is probably a discrepancy of the writer and which is likely the whole earth where they were. Is this proof that the Book of Mormon is false? In the Bible it states that:
1 John 4:12
12 No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.
Are we to believe the Bible to be false because John proclaimed that no man hath see God at any time?
Exodus 33:11
11 And the Lord spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend. And he turned again into the camp: but his servant Joshua, the son of Nun, a young man, departed not out of the tabernacle.
Are we to believe that Moses never saw God? I believe that prophets are men and are subject to making some errors but are true prophets of God. The records we have do have some discrepancies in them and are not perfect but can be found in all scripture.
I think that when "the whole earth" was written it meant the earth that they could behold. I also think that when John spoke he was speaking of only God the Father. I believe the God whom Moses spoke to face to face was Jesus Christ who was the God of the Old Testament.
We believe that there is a higher priesthood and a lesser priesthood in God's kingdom. The higher priesthood was taken away from the children of Israel after rebelling against God in the wilderness during the Exodus of Moses. The higher priesthood was also called the Melchizedek Priesthood. The higher priesthood is also called The Priesthood after the Holy Order of the Son of God. The lesser priesthood that continued with the house of Israel was known as the Aaronic Priesthood. There is an office in the Melchizedek Priesthood called High Priest. In the Aaronic Priesthood there was also an office called High Priest.
Aaronic Priesthood
Bible Dictionary
Aaronic Priesthood
As a result of the failure of the Israelites to observe the gospel law administered by Moses under the authority of the Melchizedek Priesthood, the Lord gave an additional law of performances and ordinances and “confirmed a priesthood also upon Aaron and his seed, throughout all their generations” (D&C 84:18) to administer it. This priesthood was of lesser power and authority than the priesthood of Melchizedek and was used to administer the outward ordinances, particularly as characterized by the ceremonies of the law of Moses. The terms Aaronic and Levitical are sometimes used synonymously (D&C 107:1, 6, 10), although there are some specific differences in the offices existing within the Levitical Priesthood. For example, the lesser priesthood was conferred only upon men of the tribe of Levi. However, within the tribe, only Aaron and his sons could hold the office of priest. And, still further, from the firstborn of Aaron’s sons (after Aaron) was selected the high priest (or president of the priests). Thus Aaron and his sons after him had greater offices in the Levitical Priesthood than did the other Levites.The privileges of the priests were greater than those who functioned in the other Levitical offices, and a distinction between the two is evident when the scripture speaks of them as “the priests and the Levites” (1 Kgs. 8:4; Ezra 2:70; John 1:19). The priests could offer sacrifices for the people, burn incense on the altar, and teach the law, whereas the other Levites were employed in more menial tasks, such as the housekeeping of the tabernacle, keeping oil in the lamps, transporting the Ark of the Covenant, taking down and setting up the tabernacle when moving, and related tasks in assisting the priests (Num. 3:5–10; 18:1–7; 1 Chr. 23:27–32). The account of Korah’s rebellion against Moses and Aaron delineates some of the differences between the duties of the priests and those of the Levites. It also shows the error of aspiring to offices in the priesthood. Levite companions sought for the high priesthood, but as they were unworthy, the Lord destroyed them (Num. 16–18).
The Aaronic (or Levitical) Priesthood thus functioned only within the tribe of Levi, and the right to have it conferred upon one was determined by lineage and worthiness. As part of his rationale that the law of Moses was fulfilled, Paul makes a point of the contrast between the lineal requirement of the lesser priesthood and the nonlineal Melchizedek Priesthood, which was not confined to those of one tribe (see Heb. 7:1–3, 11–14; JST Heb. 7:3 [Appendix]). The lineal restrictions of that Aaronic (Levitical) Priesthood were lifted when the law of Moses was fulfilled, and thereafter the offices of the priesthood were conferred upon worthy men without limitation to the tribe of Levi. This appears to be the case in the Church as recorded in the New Testament and in the Book of Mormon (where there were no Levites) and is presently operative in the Church as it has been restored in the latter days.
The Aaronic Priesthood continued “with the house of Aaron among the children of Israel” from Aaron until John the Baptist, who was a priest in the Aaronic order (D&C 84:26–27), and by this authority he prepared the way for and baptized Jesus. Nineteen centuries later this same John was sent from heaven as a resurrected being to confer the Aaronic Priesthood upon Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery. This was done on May 15, 1829, near Harmony, Pennsylvania. At that time John outlined some of the duties, privileges, and limitations of the priesthood, specifying that the Aaronic Priesthood holds the keys of the ministry of angels and can perform baptisms by water but has not the authority to confer the gift of the Holy Ghost. The Aaronic Priesthood functions under the direction of the Melchizedek Priesthood (D&C 13; JS—H 1:68–72).
Although the Aaronic Priesthood is conferred in the Church today without restriction to the lineage of Aaron, the keys of this priesthood rightly belong to the firstborn of the seed of Aaron, and in the restoration of all things the office of bishop (president of the priests) will once again be conferred on one of that lineage, as it is designated by revelation to the president of the Church (D&C 84:14–21; 107:13–17).
Melchizedek Priesthood
The higher or greater priesthood, as compared with the lesser or Aaronic Priesthood. The reason for the name is given in D&C 107:1–3. The Melchizedek Priesthood is mentioned in Ps. 110:4; Heb. 2:17–18; 3:1; 5:6, 10; 6:20; 7:11, 15, 17, 21; but the Bible does not give many particulars concerning the functions of that priesthood, except that Christ was a high priest after that order. From latter-day revelation we learn that within the Melchizedek Priesthood are the offices of elder, Seventy, high priest, patriarch, and Apostle (D&C 107), and that this priesthood must be present and functional whenever the kingdom of God is upon the earth in its fulness.The Melchizedek Priesthood was first made known to Adam, and the patriarchs and prophets in every dispensation had this authority (D&C 84:6–17; Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, 180–81). When the children of Israel failed to live up to the privileges and covenants of the Melchizedek Priesthood, the Lord took away the higher law and gave them a lesser priesthood and a lesser law. These were called the Aaronic Priesthood and the law of Moses. The Aaronic Priesthood is not a different priesthood; rather, it is the lesser portion of the priesthood, dealing with the introductory ordinances and the preparatory commandments (D&C 84:18–28). When Jesus came, He restored the Melchizedek Priesthood to the Jews and began to build up the Church among them. However, it was lost again by apostasy and was taken from the earth.
The Melchizedek Priesthood was restored to the earth in these last days by the ministry of Peter, James, and John, who literally came to Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery in the spring of 1829 and conferred this power and authority upon them (D&C 27:12–13). Later, Moses, Elias, and Elijah gave them further keys by which these brethren could use the Melchizedek Priesthood in additional ways (D&C 110). The president of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the president of the high or Melchizedek Priesthood, and by virtue of this position, he holds all the keys that pertain to the kingdom of God on the earth. This office or calling is held by only one man at a time, and he is the only person on the earth at that time in whom all the powers and keys of the Melchizedek Priesthood are functional. See also Aaronic Priesthood; Gospels; Law of Moses; Melchizedek.
Thus in ancient times the office of High Priest of the Aaronic Priesthood belong to the first born of the tribe of Aaron. So yes, it only belonged to one at a time. However, under the Melchizedek Priesthood, many can be called to be a high priest and thus it was after Jesus came. Jesus is the great high priest after the order of Melchizedek and presides over all.
Hebrews 5:5-6
5 So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee.
6 As he saith also in another place, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.
I don't believe there are the contradictions that you imagine. God is the God of all people on earth and has revealed himself to those who have been lead to other lands. The people of the Book of Mormon were of the House of Israel and received God's words and guidance through prophets that were among them. We believe that Book of Mormon to be the stick of Joseph spoken of by the prophet Ezekiel in his 37th chapter.CONCLUSION: The contradictions between the Book of Mormon and the Bible constitute a most serious obstacle to accepting the Book of Mormon as Latter-day scripture supplemental to the Bible. The Bible came first, not the Book of Mormon. And whereas the Bible is organically linked to the earthly ministry of Jesus Christ by extensive surviving manuscript evidence going back as far as A.D. 125-30, the Book of Mormon is wholly lacking in any such evidences of ancient origin. Is it not reasonable, therefore, to make the Bible the standard for judging the Book of Mormon, and not the other way around? If we accept the Bible as our “measuring stick” for spiritual truth, the Book of Mormon must be rejected.
Factual errors in the Book of Mormon
Book of Mormon contains significant contradictions both historical and theological (and logical). Of the abounding material objectively demonstrating this (from its inception), there is documented evidence of a vast amount of erroneous teaching in the content of all eds. of the Book of Mormon.christiandefense.org
ninja007
Gold Member
Is the Book of Mormon true? Is it a latter-day revelation that restores the so-called true Christian faith? No, it is not. The following is a list of questions that are difficult for Mormons to answer. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, is not the true Christian Church.
carm.org
- Why do Mormons put back into their temples, the veil that God destroyed at the crucifixion of Jesus (Matt. 27:51)?
- How could Joseph Smith have seen God the Father in his first vision, if the Bible says that God the Father cannot be seen (1 Tim. 6:15-16).
- If the Book of Mormon is true, why do Indians fail to turn white when they become Mormons? (2 Nephi 30:6, prior to the 1981 revision).
- If the Book of Mormon is true, then why has the Mormon church changed it? Examples are: 1 Nephi 11:21; 19:20; 20:1 and Alma 29:4. Compare these with the original Book of Mormon. (Gerald and Sandra Tanner have counted 3913 changes in the book of Mormon, excluding punctuation changes).
- How did Joseph Smith carry home the golden plates of the Book of Mormon, and how did the witnesses lift them so easily? (They weighed about 230 lbs. Gold, with a density of 19.3 weighs 1204.7 lbs. per cubic foot. The plates were 7″ x 8″ by about 6.” See Articles of Faith, by Talmage, p. 262, 34th ed.).
- If Moroni devoutly practiced the Mormon Gospel, why is he an angel now rather than a God? (Doc. & Cov. 132:17, 37)
- Why do Mormons emphasize part of the Word of Wisdom and ignore the part forbidding the eating of meat except in winter, cold or famine? (Doc. & Cov. 89:12,13).
- Why did the Nauvoo House not stand forever and ever? (Doc. & Cov. 124:56-60).
- If Jesus was conceived as a result of a physical union between God and Mary, how was Jesus born of a virgin? (Journal of Discourses, vol. 1, p. 50).
- How did Nephi with a few men on a new continent build a temple like Solomon’s while Solomon needed 163,300 workmen and seven years to build his temple? (1 Kings 5:13-18 and 2 Nephi 5:15-17).
- Why was Joseph Smith still preaching against polygamy in October 1843 after he got his revelation in July 1843 commanding the practice of polygamy? (Doc. & Cov. 132; and History of the Church, vol. 6, p. 46, or Teachings of the Prophet, p. 324).
- God rejected the fig leaf aprons which Adam and Eve made (Gen. 3:21). Why do Mormons memorialize the fall by using fig leaf aprons in the secret temple ceremonies?
Difficult Questions for Mormons to Answer | Christian Apologetics & Research Ministry
Explore Christian Apologetics, theology, and critical answers to today's questions about God, the Bible, and the Christian faith at Christian Apologetics & Research Ministry.
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SweetSue92
Diamond Member
You're never going to go beyond Joe Smith peering into a hat and looking at magic rocks to get his "visions". That's where all your interpretations of the Bible come from. So to the extent I'm willing to spend a lot of time debating his interpretation of the Bible with you? Not really, because at root, you believe in a "prophet" with magic rocks, magic plates, and a "Book of Abraham" he thought was about Abraham but was, in fact, a regular old Egyptian breathing document. He "interpreted" every single word wrong.
It's sad, tragic even, and not funny because he's deluded millions of people, even to this day.
It takes both "faith" and "works"............complimenting each other, one without the other is dead. One is not saved by "faith alone" anymore than one can be saved by "works alone". The Holy Spirit of Truth is quite explicit in documenting this reality.
"What use is it my brethren, if a man says he has faith, but he has no works, can faith save him?' -- James 2:14. The point is made clear........faith alone (belief) cannot save. Example: Demons/Devil believe.....and tremble (Jamse 2:19) "Even so.......faith if it has no works, is dead being by itself." (James 2:17). Demons believe in the Christ......what then? Can demons become Christians by simply believing that God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten son....? God gave mankind the gift to reason with logic and understanding, We have a brain that can be used to ".........TEST ALL THINGS...." and hold on only to the good/truth. (1 Thess. 5:21)
It is very possible for a Christian to fall from grace.....one must endure this life and fight the good fight of faith and works until life is over. (1 Cor. 9:24-27, 2 Tim. 4:7) Anywhere along the path of life failure is possible. What then? Can we be lost due to our failure? Of course......But Christians have an advocate that stands between our sins and the Father.........Christ Jesus, who takes the sins of the world upon Himself. Jesus is faithful to defend us when we ask for forgiveness.......there is only 1 sin that cannot be forgiven...the unrepentant sin. (1 John 2:1-4) Paul feared falling from grace and declared it was a struggle for the Spirit to bring the Flesh into spiritual submission. (Gal. 5:17, 1 Cor. 9:17)
If the hand picked (By Jesus Himself) Apostle to the Gentiles (Paul/Saul) feared falling from grace.........rest assured, there is no doctrine that declares, ONCE SAVED, ALWAYS SAVED.
The only way to reach the conclusion that one is saved by faith alone, and once saved he/she cannot be lost........they must twist the scriptures to their own destruction (2 Peter 3:16). Peter stated that those who are unlearned (in scripture) or unstable.....twist the scriptures to their own destruction, both Paul's writings and the other scriptures.
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- #54
The temple veil is a representation of the veil between mankind on this earth and God, or fallen man and exalted Holy Man. Jesus was the redeemer and mediator between God and fallen mankind. The renting of the veil was a representation of Jesus renting the actual veil between God and man and allowing them to have salvation and forgiveness of sin to enter into the presence of God. Just because God rent the veil does not imply that he destroyed it to never be used again in the temple. There is still a veil that man needs to pass through to enter the presence of God and it is through Jesus Christ that we all can pierce the veil and find salvation to our souls.
In the book of John, John tells us that no man hath see God (the Father) at any time.
John 1:18
18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
Later John clarifies this statement by saying:
John 6:46
46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.
Stephen at his martyrdom saw the Father:
Acts 7:55-56
55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up steadfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,
56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.
So I don't think your interpretation of 1 Tim. 6:15-16 is absolutely correct.
It is through fallen man that scripture is written and revealed and translated. So it doesn't surprise me that somethings merit correction even in scripture. If you look at the various translations of the Bible you can see that different words are used in different translations. Others have found contradictions in the Bible also (see 101 Contradictions in the Bible ). Will you stop believing the Bible because of this? "Pure" is what could have been meant in this particular situation and not "White". I don't have a problem with that.
Book of Mormon textual changes
I don't believe that it was ever stated that the plates were solid gold. I know that it has been said that they had the appearance of gold.
Book of Mormon and "gold" plates
Members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints do not believe that angels are different beings than mankind. An angel is a messenger. Our scriptures tell us the following about angels.
Doctrine and Covenants 129
Moroni needed to finish his calling, whether it be in heaven or on earth, and was the one selected to reveal the plates to Joseph Smith and be a messenger of God even after his death. I don't think we have ever taught that godhood is instantaneous once we die. However, as the children of God, Jesus himself already called us all gods so take that for what it is worth (see Psalms 82:6 and John 10:34-35).
It's late, I'll get to your other points later.
shockedcanadian
Diamond Member
- Aug 6, 2012
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With all I am going through in life is is definitely a challenge. I used to pray multpe.times a day, now I only pray the minimum. It can be realy difficult to balance ones future pursuit of heaven with the realities of life today. Pray for me please and each other.
shockedcanadian
Diamond Member
- Aug 6, 2012
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Yes but actions speak louder than belief IMO. I recall a Jewish panel on TV years ago and this one man was so strong with hs words that the others on the panel seemed almost perturbed by his declaration. He said very simply, "I can't see any path in which someone is alowed into heaven without a strong commitment to charity in this life". Right on Brother, I couldn't agree more. It was so perfectly timed when he delivered it too
- Thread starter
- #57
I don't know that they are less emphasized since they are part of our scripture and you yourself have found them and are asking this question. Yes, many do ignore the fact that it would be more pleasing unto God if we would refrain from meats in times of harvest of spring, summer, and fall and times of cold and famine. Originally the Word of Wisdom (Doctrine and Covenants 89) was given to us not by way of commandment:
Doctrine and Covenants 89:1-2
1 A Word of Wisdom, for the benefit of the council of high priests, assembled in Kirtland, and the church, and also the saints in Zion—
2 To be sent greeting; not by commandment or constraint, but by revelation and the word of wisdom, showing forth the order and will of God in the temporal salvation of all saints in the last days
Man was not originally commanded to keep this word of wisdom but it was given for the temporal salvation of mankind. The Church later on decided to make it a requirement of all members since God would like it if we all adhered to its wisdom to lengthen our lives. Still many in the church fail to fully comply with this word of wisdom but do strive to keep many parts of it. If only we could find a church that kept all the commandments of God perfectly. Do the members of your church fully comply with every word that has come from mouth of God unto them? Yes, mankind are sinners and many times fail to follow some of the counsels of God. We are guilty at times and suggest that you look toward your own congregations and see if they are not also guilty of not following all the counsel of God perfectly. We are sinners. I can assure you of that one truth and yes we need to do better.
Nauvoo House The Nauvoo House according to the link is still standing and who knows but what it will stand forever.
There is no documented history or detailed revelation on how Mary was impregnated by God our Father in Heaven. Some in the church have speculated that the Father had sex with Mary but we know today that isn't the only way for a woman to be impregnated. God could have caused Mary to be impregnated without having sex with her. Our revelations do not say that it was a physical union. So we do not know even though some have speculated. However God impregnated Mary, she was considered a virgin when Jesus was born.
Isaiah 7:14
14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.
2 Nephi 17:14
14 Therefore, the Lord himself shall give you a sign—Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and shall bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.
It is not doctrine of the church that God the Father had physical sex with Mary.
2 Nephi 5:15-17
15 And I did teach my people to build buildings, and to work in all manner of wood, and of iron, and of copper, and of brass, and of steel, and of gold, and of silver, and of precious ores, which were in great abundance.
16 And I, Nephi, did build a temple; and I did construct it after the manner of the temple of Solomon save it were not built of so many precious things; for they were not to be found upon the land, wherefore, it could not be built like unto Solomon’s temple. But the manner of the construction was like unto the temple of Solomon; and the workmanship thereof was exceedingly fine.
Perhaps it was not as ornate and built of so many precious things that it took them less time and likely less people. The estimate is that it was around 588–559 B.C. when the temple was built. It is estimated that they left Jerusalem around 600 B.C. and arrived in the America's around 591–589 B.C. They could have had children on their journey so the time span would have an estimate of being from around 12 to 41 years of population growth. So yes I agree that there wasn't over 100,000 workers. But according to the verses above, they only built the temple after the construction only of the Solomon Temple of which I believe is possible without all the ornamentation. If each family had 10 to 12 children that would be 40 to 48 people after 1 generation and 200 to 264 after 2 generations. You could probably get about 100 men working and maybe more if women were also helping. Although I believe it possible, I have found this to be a good thought exercise.
Much of the questions regarding polygamy in the church have been addressed countless times. I think the following link can lead you to most any answer to a question regarding the subject.
Joseph Smith's Polygamy
Regarding the specific question asked, I would answer with the question, "If God commanded a people to practice polygamy for a time to bring up the numbers of the church but were persecuted for doing so, would they be justified in making misleading statements if it would reduce the persecution and death of their people and allow them to fulfill the commandment that God gave them"? Before the saints moved to Nauvoo, IL they lived in Missouri and had the following experience there where they were denied their right to freedom of religion and protection by the law.
Missouri Persecutions and Expulsion
I believe that some misleading statements may have been made to avoid the persecutions of their enemies. LDS apologist also address this dangerous time in our history:
Polygamy Denials?
I reject your conclusion that God rejected the aprons Adam and Eve wore. God simply made them a better covering for their nakedness. Coat of skin covered more nakedness than mere aprons of leaves and were also warmer and more protective. The aprons are used in the temple ceremonies to represent the knowledge that Adam and Eve obtained from the fall when realizing that they were naked. They were no longer in a state of innocence but progressed to a higher state of being knowing good from evil like God.
- God rejected the fig leaf aprons which Adam and Eve made (Gen. 3:21). Why do Mormons memorialize the fall by using fig leaf aprons in the secret temple ceremonies?
Difficult Questions for Mormons to Answer | Christian Apologetics & Research Ministry
Explore Christian Apologetics, theology, and critical answers to today's questions about God, the Bible, and the Christian faith at Christian Apologetics & Research Ministry.
Genesis 3:22
22 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
ninja007
Gold Member
Jesus, that we had accepted as Mormons, is not the Jesus of the Bible. Jesus of the Bible is literally God Almighty who became a man to redeem us (Isa. 7:14; 9:6). He created everything including Lucifer (Col. 1:16) and He is not a brother of human spirits nor a brother of Lucifer. He is the only Way, the Truth and the Life. His salvation is a Gift so no one can boast of earning it (Eph. 2:8-9). But one must know Him first as John 17:3 says.
ninja007
Gold Member
you dont lose your salvation by disobeying the Father.
That's what Thessalonians teaches. The charlatans have called that the rapture.
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