Zone1 Grace and Works

[GMCGeneral]

With The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints we do not preach that our works save us. However, the scriptures themselves teach that we should do good works and that you cannot have a true faith without works. They also teach that we should walk in them and that we were born to do good works. Even Jesus himself taught that unless we engage in the will of God we will not enter the kingdom of heaven. So, good works are an integral part of the faith. They are not the power to salvation but God does require them at our hands before he will grant his saving grace upon us.

Matthew 7:21
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

James 2:20
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

Ephesians 2:8-10
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Part of the problem with those who teach against works is that they may get some to believe that they don't need to do anything in regards to works and will still be saved. But that goes against many scriptures. We need to do the work of repentance and the work of following God's commandments and doing good works to our fellowman. These are all good works that are spoken of frequently in scripture. True, they don't do the saving but they are what God wishes us to do and Matthew 7:21 seems to indicate that if you wish to gain entrance into God's kingdom, you need to do his will. It may not be the saving power but it may be required before you are granted the saving grace that does save you.

Stop right there. Mormonism is based upon the false teachings of Joseph K. and Hyram Smith. Mormonism does not align with Scripture on the key elements of true Biblical Faith in Christ, and in fact, has its roots in Freemasonry, which in itself is demonic. A great countercult resource is Kingdom of the Cults by Dr. Walter R. Martin that helps to address the doctrinal heresies of Mormonism along with other cults such as the Watchtower, Worldwide Church of God (before revival), Scientology, Christian Science, etc.

 

[GMCGeneral]

So can you be saved, and not do any works at all?

Biblically correct. the works we do are a testimony or witness as to what G-d has done for us and the intent and purpose is to bring others to the Cross. It is G-d Himself who changes the heart, and thus the life of the believer. One such example I always love to share is the infamous "Son of Sam" killer David Berkowicz. He got saved in prison and is now sold out completely to Jesus Christ. Now, you might think that this "jailhouse conversion" is phony so he can get out, but that isn't the case at all. he accepted responsibility for the pain, fear, and misery he has caused and also accepts his lot and station in his life, and has even rejected parole when it was offered.

 

[onefour1]

So can you be saved, and not do any works at all?

Well, that brings up many questions. First off, many babies die in child birth. I believe that those who do so are given the opportunity to hear the gospel in the world of spirits and it may be possible to do good works in the spirit realm. My faith professes that children who die under the age of accountability are saved in the kingdom of heaven. But that brings up a question of fairness. If they never reach the age of accountability and are automatically saved, how is that fair to those who do reach the age of accountability and must have faith unto good works to receive the grace of God? God is the judge of all and his knowledge is perfect. Scripture tells us that he knows the thoughts and intents of all our hearts. I cannot judge God since he is the ideal of perfection. I trust that he is the perfect and just God that he claims to be. I believe that in the end, He will execute justice and fairness on us all. I think God will take all things into account and we will all get what we truly deserve.

I really can't imagine that a person who lives quite a long life will have done no good works at all. I believe all are born with the light of Christ within them and it is hard for me to imagine that a person could do no good work in their life. Most people have a mix of good and bad and some regret the bad things they do and others love the bad things they do. Even little tiny children learn to love and share and are very innocent. I think over time we learn evil and make decisions as to whether we like it or not. My view of most people is that there is still that light of Christ within them and they tend to want to do what is right. However some fall into the evil traps of life and end up justifying in their own hearts evil deeds. I think every soul must receive a chance to hear the gospel of Jesus Christ and be given the opportunity to accept and repent or reject it. I think before all are brought before the judgement bar of God they will have had the chance to accept or reject the gospel and will be judged according to their knowledge of good and evil and whether they list to obey evil more than good or good more than evil. I believe the unpardonable sin is of those who have received a very strong knowledge of God and his gospel to the point of almost knowing of a surety of it and then reject it and turn against God himself. There is no forgiveness of those who have received the greater portion of God's light and truth and then reject it. They become sons of perdition and love Satan more than God even with a full knowledge of the truth.

All our decisions and acts are our works. God must determine if we are willing to live according to his celestial law in the kingdom of heaven or whether we need to go to another kingdom that we are willing to abide by its law. To whom much is given, much is required. Those who accept the greater light will accept the law of the kingdom of heaven. Those who are not willing to abide the celestial law of God will need to go elsewhere and live among those who are like them. To do absolutely no works seems incredible to me. Unless they die in child birth, I simply can't imagine it.

 

[onefour1]

Stop right there. Mormonism is based upon the false teachings of Joseph K. and Hyram Smith. Mormonism does not align with Scripture on the key elements of true Biblical Faith in Christ, and in fact, has its roots in Freemasonry, which in itself is demonic. A great countercult resource is Kingdom of the Cults by Dr. Walter R. Martin that helps to address the doctrinal heresies of Mormonism along with other cults such as the Watchtower, Worldwide Church of God (before revival), Scientology, Christian Science, etc.

You've been taught well by those who hate The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

 

[SweetSue92]

Stop right there. Mormonism is based upon the false teachings of Joseph K. and Hyram Smith. Mormonism does not align with Scripture on the key elements of true Biblical Faith in Christ, and in fact, has its roots in Freemasonry, which in itself is demonic. A great countercult resource is Kingdom of the Cults by Dr. Walter R. Martin that helps to address the doctrinal heresies of Mormonism along with other cults such as the Watchtower, Worldwide Church of God (before revival), Scientology, Christian Science, etc.

Part of the good works Joe Smith wanted to do was have a bunch of wives. A bunch of very young wives. So there's that.

 

[SweetSue92]

You've been taught well by those who hate The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

Disagreement and rejection is not hate. YOU have been taught that we hate you, and hate Mormonism. We don't. We reject it. It's not Christian, for one thing.

 

[GMCGeneral]

You've been taught well by those who hate The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

You meant to say those who have studied Scripture and have that personal relationship with G-d.

 

[Meriweather]

That's the one thing Catholics and adherents to other works-based religions fail to comprehend.

Failure to comprehend starts well before "works". Catholics aren't the least worried about "works" as they have nothing to do with anything. This is apparently something non-Catholics Christians either fail to understand or cannot understand.

Adam disobeyed, Jesus obeyed. He taught that we are to turn from sin and in its stead, to discern the will of God and follow it. Catholic life is devoted to following in our Savior's footsteps of obedience to God. The way of salvation is eschewing the disobedience that Adam chose and embracing the obedience to God Jesus taught.

Sometimes it appears that the message Protestants see is that Christ gave his life so people can live lives of disobedience with all consequences taken care of. When they see Catholics (and others) instead living lives of obedience they scream "works!" to relieve their own doubts.

 

[GMCGeneral]

Failure to comprehend starts well before "works". Catholics aren't the least worried about "works" as they have nothing to do with anything. This is apparently something non-Catholics Christians either fail to understand or cannot understand.

Adam disobeyed, Jesus obeyed. He taught that we are to turn from sin and in its stead, to discern the will of God and follow it. Catholic life is devoted to following in our Savior's footsteps of obedience to God. The way of salvation is eschewing the disobedience that Adam chose and embracing the obedience to God Jesus taught.

Sometimes it appears that the message Protestants see is that Christ gave his life so people can live lives of disobedience with all consequences taken care of. When they see Catholics (and others) instead living lives of obedience they scream "works!" to relieve their own doubts.

Not true at all. The Evangelical perspective is that G-d imparts a new nature and that Christ's shed blood settled the issue of justification. It is through Sanctification that the old nature is fleshed out.

 

[Meriweather]

Not true at all. The Evangelical perspective is that G-d imparts a new nature and that Christ's shed blood settled the issue of justification. It is through Sanctification that the old nature is fleshed out.

Is the Evangelical perspective of justification, "one and done"? Catholics (and some other non-Catholic Christians) see justification as more of a progression. Christ's redemption of the world is our 'one and done'. Justification begins with conversion, as grace is bestowed upon us.

An analogy that might be used is one of pregnancy. No one is "kind of" pregnant, they either are, or they are not. On the other hand, there are growing stages of pregnancy, just as there are in justification.

Or, better yet, as Paul writes in Ephesians (2:10) - For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

In our obedience to God and these good works He prepared beforehand, our walk in them is showered with God's sanctifying graces.

 

[ninja007]

Matthew 7:21
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

God requires that we do his will before he grants the grace to enter his kingdom.

James 2:20
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

Par of having a true faith is having good works which is the will of God.

Ephesians 2:8-10
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

The faith and works do not save us. It is the grace of God that is the saving power behind salvation. However, God has required that we we walk in faith and has let us know that faith without works is dead. God is telling us that we are created in Christ Jesus unto good works and that we should walk in them but they are not the saving force. They are required before God will grant his grace but they are not the part of the equation that saves. It is the grace of God that does the saving. Does this mean that we should forsake good works? NO!!! We should walk in them and we are created unto good works. God requires that we do good works even though they are not the saving power. Only after we walk in good works will the Lord grant his saving grace which alone has the power to grant us salvation in his kingdom.

Again read Matthew 7:21
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

 

[ninja007]

With The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints we do not preach that our works save us. However, the scriptures themselves teach that we should do good works and that you cannot have a true faith without works. They also teach that we should walk in them and that we were born to do good works. Even Jesus himself taught that unless we engage in the will of God we will not enter the kingdom of heaven. So, good works are an integral part of the faith. They are not the power to salvation but God does require them at our hands before he will grant his saving grace upon us.

Matthew 7:21
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

James 2:20
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

Ephesians 2:8-10
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Part of the problem with those who teach against works is that they may get some to believe that they don't need to do anything in regards to works and will still be saved. But that goes against many scriptures. We need to do the work of repentance and the work of following God's commandments and doing good works to our fellowman. These are all good works that are spoken of frequently in scripture. True, they don't do the saving but they are what God wishes us to do and Matthew 7:21 seems to indicate that if you wish to gain entrance into God's kingdom, you need to do his will. It may not be the saving power but it may be required before you are granted the saving grace that does save you.

Romans 5:8

King James Version

​

8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

 

[ninja007]

I have never understood the Protestant claim that works are unnecessary to reach Heaven.

Romans 5:8

King James Version

​

8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

 

[ninja007]

Galatians 2:16 ESV / 11 helpful votes​

​

Yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.

Romans 5:1-2 ESV / 10 helpful votes​

​

Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. Through him we have also obtained access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

 

[ninja007]

I have never understood the Protestant claim that works are unnecessary to reach Heaven.

how many works to be saved? what type of works? how often? what kind?

 

[ninja007]

With The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints we do not preach that our works save us. However, the scriptures themselves teach that we should do good works and that you cannot have a true faith without works. They also teach that we should walk in them and that we were born to do good works. Even Jesus himself taught that unless we engage in the will of God we will not enter the kingdom of heaven. So, good works are an integral part of the faith. They are not the power to salvation but God does require them at our hands before he will grant his saving grace upon us.

Matthew 7:21
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

James 2:20
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

Ephesians 2:8-10
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Part of the problem with those who teach against works is that they may get some to believe that they don't need to do anything in regards to works and will still be saved. But that goes against many scriptures. We need to do the work of repentance and the work of following God's commandments and doing good works to our fellowman. These are all good works that are spoken of frequently in scripture. True, they don't do the saving but they are what God wishes us to do and Matthew 7:21 seems to indicate that if you wish to gain entrance into God's kingdom, you need to do his will. It may not be the saving power but it may be required before you are granted the saving grace that does save you.

lds is a cult. The LDS God is an Exalted Man with Body Parts

 

[ninja007]

There are many serious objections to the claim of Joseph Smith and the LDS church that the Book of Mormon is divinely inspired Latter-day scripture supplemental to the Bible.* However, none are more significant than the numerous contradictions between Book of Mormon teaching and the Bible. This list is illustrative only, not exhaustive.


(1) The Book of Mormon teaches that little children are not capable of sin because they do not have a sinful nature (Moroni 8:8). In contrast, the Bible in Psalm 51:5 clearly teaches that we have a sinful nature from birth: “Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me” (NIV). (This does not mean that those who die in infancy are lost.**)


(2) The Book of Mormon teaches that the disobedience of Adam and Eve in eating the forbidden fruit was necessary so that they could have children and bring joy to mankind (2 Nephi 2:23-25). In contrast, the Bible specifically declares that Adam’s transgression was a sinful act of rebellion that unleashed the power of sin and death in God’s perfect world (Romans 5:12; 8:20-21). There is no Biblical support for the view that Adam and Eve could only fulfill the command to “be fruitful and multiply” (Genesis 1:28) by disobeying God’s command regarding the forbidden fruit (Genesis 2:17). The Book of Mormon teaching that these divine commands are contradictory, and that God expected Adam and Eve to figure out that in reality He wanted them to break the latter command (“of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it”) in order to keep the former (“be fruitful and multiply”), has no basis in logic or the Biblical text, and attributes equivocation to God.





(3) The Book of Mormon teaches that black skin is a sign of God’s curse, so that white-skinned people are considered morally and spiritually superior to black-skinned people (2 Nephi 5:21). In contrast, the Bible teaches that God “made of one blood all nations of men” (Acts 17:26, KJV), that in Christ distinctions of ethnicity, gender and social class are erased (Galatians 3:28), and that God condemns favoritism (James 2:1). [NOTE: See our article, Mormonism and Black Skin, for an documented and expanded look at the LDS views both delineated in the LDS scriptures and by way of sermon or statements by LDS General Authorities (LDS Presidents, Apostles, etc.) regarding people with dark skin, which the LDS has seen, for almost 200 years, as “cursed”].


(4) The Book of Mormon teaches that, “it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do” (2 Nephi 25:23; see also Moroni 10:32). In contrast, the Bible teaches that apart from Christ we are dead in sin (Ephesians 2:1,5) and unable to do anything to merit forgiveness and eternal life. Salvation is wholly of grace (Ephesians 2:8-9; Romans 11:6; Titus 3:5-6), not by grace plus works. Good works are a result, not the basis, of a right relationship with God (Ephesians 2:10).


(5) According to the Book of Mormon, about 600 years before Christ, a Nephite prophet predicted that “many plain and precious parts” (1 Nephi 13:26-28) would be removed from the Bible. In contrast, from the Bible it is clear that during His earthly ministry, Jesus himself constantly quoted from the Old Testament Scriptures, and showed full confidence in their completeness and accurate transmission as they had survived down to His time. Jesus declared that “heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away” (Mark 13:31; see also Matthew 5:18), and promised His disciples who were to pen the New Testament that the Holy Ghost “shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you” (John 14:26); Jesus further promised the apostles that they would “bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain” (John 15:16). These promises clearly imply that the fruit of the apostles — the New Testament Scriptures and the Christian church — would endure.


(6) According to a Book of Mormon prophecy (Helaman 14:27), at the time of Christ’s crucifixion “darkness should cover the face of the whole earth for the space of three days.” In contrast, the New Testament gospel accounts declare repeatedly that there was darkness for only three hours while Jesus was on the cross (Matthew 27:45; Mark 15:33; Luke 23:24).


(7) The Book of Mormon teaches that there were many high priests serving at the same time (Mosiah 11:11; Alma 13:9-10; 46:6,38; Helaman 3:25) among the Book of Mormon people who are described as Jewish immigrants from ancient Israel who “kept the law of Moses” (e.g., 2 Nephi 25:10; Jacob 4:5; Jarom 1:5). In contrast, it is clear from the Bible that only one individual at a time occupied the office of high priest under the Old Testament dispensation (see, for example Leviticus 21:10; Matthew 26:3; Hebrews 8:6-7). (The mention in Luke 3:2 of “Annas and Caiaphas being the high priests” is not a real exception — in Christ’s time Israel was under the domination of the Romans, who intervened to change the high priest at will. See John 18:13, which describes Annas as “father-in-law to Caiaphas, which was the high priest that same year.”)


CONCLUSION: The contradictions between the Book of Mormon and the Bible constitute a most serious obstacle to accepting the Book of Mormon as Latter-day scripture supplemental to the Bible. The Bible came first, not the Book of Mormon. And whereas the Bible is organically linked to the earthly ministry of Jesus Christ by extensive surviving manuscript evidence going back as far as A.D. 125-30, the Book of Mormon is wholly lacking in any such evidences of ancient origin. Is it not reasonable, therefore, to make the Bible the standard for judging the Book of Mormon, and not the other way around? If we accept the Bible as our “measuring stick” for spiritual truth, the Book of Mormon must be rejected.

Factual errors in the Book of Mormon

Book of Mormon contains significant contradictions both historical and theological (and logical). Of the abounding material objectively demonstrating this (from its inception), there is documented evidence of a vast amount of erroneous teaching in the content of all eds. of the Book of Mormon.

christiandefense.org

 

[Meriweather]

how many works to be saved? what type of works? how often? what kind?

How many times must your children obey you before they become your children?

Right. They already are your children. Does this mean obedience/chores should not be expected of them? After all...they are already your children...

 

[ninja007]

How many times must your children obey you before they become your children?

Right. They already are your children. Does this mean obedience/chores should not be expected of them? After all...they are already your children...

you proved my point.

 

[ninja007]

How many times must your children obey you before they become your children?

Right. They already are your children. Does this mean obedience/chores should not be expected of them? After all...they are already your children...

how do you know youre going to heaven?