Government ...

[Derelict_Drvr]

Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state, an intolerable one. -Thomas Paine

Our government is quickly becoming the latter

I am not an anarchist, but it has become quite clear that governmental restraint and common sense needs to be re-introduced. It begins with term limits and a congress that meets every two years, and maybe the election of all judges.

 

[dblack]

But it is the Will Of The People that Government represents.

No, it's not. At best, in a democracy, government represents the majority of the people. We need strict limits on government power to prevent the majority from victimizing everyone else.

And you seem to have a problem with majority rule ??

Just pointing out that majority rule is not the 'will of the people'. The will of the people is multiple and varied. Majority rule is imposing the will of the majority on the rest of the people.

If you don't support majority rule then what do you support ??

I don't have a problem with majority rule. I have a problem with unlimited government, regardless of whose calling the shots.

I support constitutionally limited government that protects the rights of the individuals above all other functions. Too many people today envision government as a means of imposing the will of the majority on the rest of society.

Majority rule is the best measure and definition we have of the will of the People.

No, it's not. That's my point from earlier. Majority rule is a piss-poor approximation of what people want. It's only useful when we need consensus, when it's truly necessary for all of us to agree to one course of action. Outside of those relatively rare circumstances, government should have no say in how we live our lives.

 

[yiostheoy]

But it is the Will Of The People that Government represents.

No, it's not. At best, in a democracy, government represents the majority of the people. We need strict limits on government power to prevent the majority from victimizing everyone else.

And you seem to have a problem with majority rule ??

Just pointing out that majority rule is not the 'will of the people'. The will of the people is multiple and varied. Majority rule is imposing the will of the majority on the rest of the people.

If you don't support majority rule then what do you support ??

I don't have a problem with majority rule. I have a problem with unlimited government, regardless of whose calling the shots.

I support constitutionally limited government that protects the rights of the individuals above all other functions. Too many people today envision government as a means of imposing the will of the majority on the rest of society.

Majority rule is the best measure and definition we have of the will of the People.

No, it's not. That's my point from earlier. Majority rule is a piss-poor approximation of what people want. It's only useful when we need consensus, when it's truly necessary for all of us to agree to one course of action. Outside of those relatively rare circumstances, government should have no say in how we live our lives.

If you like jungle law and jungle politics then you probably belong back there.

Most other people prefer to unite into a community, in which case a government is required.

That government is usually comprised of elders.

The ancient Spartans had a permanent council of elders called the Gerousia.

The ancient Athenians however elected their council annually. This form of government was called "democracy" (the deme's were like parishes or wards) and it was invented by Cleisthenes (an aristocrat) in 510 BC.

Cleisthenes - Wikipedia

 

[yiostheoy]

If there are two opposite poles of the political spectrum it is clearly ancient Athens and ancient Africa.

Civilization on the one hand, and jungle ruthlessness on the other.

 

[dblack]

No, it's not. At best, in a democracy, government represents the majority of the people. We need strict limits on government power to prevent the majority from victimizing everyone else.

And you seem to have a problem with majority rule ??

Just pointing out that majority rule is not the 'will of the people'. The will of the people is multiple and varied. Majority rule is imposing the will of the majority on the rest of the people.

If you don't support majority rule then what do you support ??

I don't have a problem with majority rule. I have a problem with unlimited government, regardless of whose calling the shots.

I support constitutionally limited government that protects the rights of the individuals above all other functions. Too many people today envision government as a means of imposing the will of the majority on the rest of society.

Majority rule is the best measure and definition we have of the will of the People.

No, it's not. That's my point from earlier. Majority rule is a piss-poor approximation of what people want. It's only useful when we need consensus, when it's truly necessary for all of us to agree to one course of action. Outside of those relatively rare circumstances, government should have no say in how we live our lives.

If you like jungle law and jungle politics then you probably belong back there.

Most other people prefer to unite into a community, in which case a government is required.

That government is usually comprised of elders.

The ancient Spartans had a permanent council of elders called the Gerousia.

The ancient Athenians however elected their council annually. This form of government was called "democracy" (the deme's were like parishes or wards) and it was invented by Cleisthenes (an aristocrat) in 510 BC.

Cleisthenes - Wikipedia

I'm not sure what you're rambling on about here. We were talking about limited vs unlimited government. You seem to be a fan of unlimited majority rule, and that sounds really dangerous to me.

 

[Darkwind]

But it is the Will Of The People that Government represents.

No, it's not. At best, in a democracy, government represents the majority of the people. We need strict limits on government power to prevent the majority from victimizing everyone else.

Exactly right. Plato also warned against the tyranny of a democracy.

 

[Darkwind]

But it is the Will Of The People that Government represents.

No, it's not. At best, in a democracy, government represents the majority of the people. We need strict limits on government power to prevent the majority from victimizing everyone else.

And you seem to have a problem with majority rule ??

Just pointing out that majority rule is not the 'will of the people'. The will of the people is multiple and varied. Majority rule is imposing the will of the majority on the rest of the people.

If you don't support majority rule then what do you support ??

I don't have a problem with majority rule. I have a problem with unlimited government, regardless of whose calling the shots.

I support constitutionally limited government that protects the rights of the individuals above all other functions. Too many people today envision government as a means of imposing the will of the majority on the rest of society.

Majority rule is the best measure and definition we have of the will of the People.

Plato disagreed with you. Hell, anyone who has had their rights taken from them on the basis of a majority rule would disagree with you.

Democracy = Two wolves and a sheep voting on whats for lunch.

 

[yiostheoy]

But it is the Will Of The People that Government represents.

No, it's not. At best, in a democracy, government represents the majority of the people. We need strict limits on government power to prevent the majority from victimizing everyone else.

And you seem to have a problem with majority rule ??

Just pointing out that majority rule is not the 'will of the people'. The will of the people is multiple and varied. Majority rule is imposing the will of the majority on the rest of the people.

If you don't support majority rule then what do you support ??

I don't have a problem with majority rule. I have a problem with unlimited government, regardless of whose calling the shots.

I support constitutionally limited government that protects the rights of the individuals above all other functions. Too many people today envision government as a means of imposing the will of the majority on the rest of society.

Majority rule is the best measure and definition we have of the will of the People.

Plato disagreed with you. Hell, anyone who has had their rights taken from them on the basis of a majority rule would disagree with you.

Democracy = Two wolves and a sheep voting on whats for lunch.

You are correct -- Plato favored the Spartans rather than the Athenians.

That's because of a comedy of errors which started with Socrates.

Socrates came up with a philosophical concept of a deist God (not Theist Pantheon of polytheism).

Naturally he had no evidence either way for deism or theism or for monotheism or polytheism.

Then Socrates fell for an argument from ignorance.

Socrates concluded that since we know philosophically (First Cause or Prime Mover) that there must be at least one God, Socrates ASS-U-ME'd that there was only 1 God.

Then he made a bigger mistake -- he began teaching this publicly to his Philosophy students.

One of the students ratted him out to the Athenian Archons.

So they condemned Socrates to die by poison and they encouraged him to leave Athens if he wanted to live.

Dumbazz Socrates stayed and took the poison.

And Plato was jaded against the Archons and the democracy that had elected them -- also a fallacy of false cause.

Socrates was responsible for defying the city-state religion of Zeus et all. That was his own fault.