Good Teachers....Bad Teachers

[JamesInFlorida]

A value-added system sounds good on paper, but how would it work? Testing in every subject every year? Do you know how much that would cost? How much time would be wasted? How would special education teachers be paid?

Is it fair to hold teachers responsible for truancy, transiency, and neglect?

Tenure needs to be reformed; not eliminated. "Bad teachers" need to be fired, but student test scores do NOT measure "bad teachers". When a 4th grader is tested in October, does that reflect what he has learned in 4th grade, or in K-3?

Believe it or not folks, good teachers are rewarded and bad teachers are punished. In the first 3 years, many new teachers are denied tenure. After that, certain favorites are given perks like good classes, duties, and paid extracurricular positions.. Consequently, less popular teachers are given those that nobody else wants. Good teachers are left alone; bad teachers are watched constantly.

Every single year, I have gotten all the classes I have requested. When I ask for supplies, maintenance requests, or anything else to make the job less stressful, it is granted. When others bitch about all of the above, I just smile. That's worth far more than money.

Well first of all I think the most accurate way to determine whether a teacher is good or not, is by monitoring how much their students learn/improve from the start of the school year to the end. I don't think it should be a knee-jerk reaction. I think if over a few years the teacher consistently has students that just aren't learning enough-they should be fired.

Not sure how it is in your state, or school district but here when teachers go into a pool and apply for an open position the principal HAS to hire the first person who walks in the door. If person A walks in at 10:00 and wants the job, but person B who's much more qualified (has better results, awards, recognitions, higher degree) walks in-they don't get the job.

The principals have to hire based on the longevity of the teacher, and who looks better on paper-even if a newer teacher would make a much better teacher.

Then when schools get money, instead of using it for new computer labs, or other educational tools-what do they do? Build new football facilities, and new locker rooms. And people wonder why our education system sucks.

edit: And the amount of money we spend on the education system shouldn't be an issue. If a better way of measuring teacher's effectiveness is expensive-so? Our education system here is crumbling, and I think it's completely unacceptable. We used to be #1. We used to be the country that produced the most scientists, the most inventors, education was the backbone of this country-and it just isn't anymore. We need to invest (and yes that means spend money) on our education system. But the problem is when we've done that in the past-we just blindly threw money at the problem, we didn't address the needs. I don't think people really mind if we spend money on education-it's how the money gets spent which is the problem.

 

[random3434]

There may be another reason students aren't learning as 'well as they used to' like the 'good ole days'~Technology. Yes, it can enhance education if used right, but how many American kids are "Plugged In" to video games, their computers, Social Networks,cell phones, ipods, etc.

Reading for pleasure, which has declined among young people in recent decades, enhances thinking and engages the imagination in a way that visual media such as video games and television do not, Greenfield said.

Here is an interesting article about it:


Is Technology Producing A Decline In Critical Thinking And Analysis?

 

[Skull Pilot]

The one immutable fact that I learned about teachers:

Those that can't do teach. Those that can't teach teach phys ed.

 

[PoliticalChic]

A value-added system sounds good on paper, but how would it work? Testing in every subject every year? Do you know how much that would cost? How much time would be wasted? How would special education teachers be paid?

Is it fair to hold teachers responsible for truancy, transiency, and neglect?

Tenure needs to be reformed; not eliminated. "Bad teachers" need to be fired, but student test scores do NOT measure "bad teachers". When a 4th grader is tested in October, does that reflect what he has learned in 4th grade, or in K-3?

Believe it or not folks, good teachers are rewarded and bad teachers are punished. In the first 3 years, many new teachers are denied tenure. After that, certain favorites are given perks like good classes, duties, and paid extracurricular positions.. Consequently, less popular teachers are given those that nobody else wants. Good teachers are left alone; bad teachers are watched constantly.

Every single year, I have gotten all the classes I have requested. When I ask for supplies, maintenance requests, or anything else to make the job less stressful, it is granted. When others bitch about all of the above, I just smile. That's worth far more than money.

"Find a job that you love and you'll never have to work a day in your life."

Sounds like it's true.

 

[PoliticalChic]

Stricter performance standards would improve the quality of education, but it's really a dodge of the real problem. Teachers are expected to be professionals, but they aren't paid the kind of salaries professionals are paid. The result is that people who end up becoming teachers are, by and large, the people who couldn't cut it in other areas.

Although senior teachers in NYC are paid over $100K...

...I believe that there is a great big dollop of truth in what you say, tie-man.
With the opportunities that have opened up for women in medicine and law, many top folks now look elsewhere for status and money.

I would like to see computers and technology used to their fullest...for teachers....so that a teacher could choose how many classes to teach, her time schedule, numbers of students in her classes....
....pay based on these parameters as well as performance.
My point is that said changes would allow women to pick teaching so as to fit it into having a family.

 

[M.D. Rawlings]

When I was in school, the good teachers always seemed to be pleased with my intelligence. The bad teachers were always the ones who were critical of the teachers that thought I was smart.

I was a "passed-on kid" for the first four years of school; i.e., I was learning very little, though I could read well. In fact, that's all I did. Read. While the others were listening and learning and doing their work in class, I read: Tom Sawyer, Huckleberry Finn, A Tale of Two Cities, The Count of Monte Cristo, The Call of the Wild. . . .

Outside class I liked sports, my only other real interest.

But in class when I wasn't reading, I was dreaming. I was a dummy. Stupid. And I knew this to be true because my first grade teacher told me I was a dummy, that I was stupid. So I didn't bother, just read and dreamed. I knew my multiplication table, barely. I could add and multiply, slowly. But I couldn't subtract or do long division.

I was just passed on . . . until I ran into my fifth grade teacher who within a week noticed what no other teacher seemed to have noticed before. Well, she put an end to my dream years. She was delighted that I read at a twelfth-grade level, but appalled at the fact that I couldn't do much of anything else and didn't know much of anything else outside certain works of literature. She changed my life. By the end of my fifth year, I had caught with my peers. By the end of my sixth year, I was ahead of most.

I suspect from all reports that in today's public education system my story is not so novel anymore, but increasingly becoming the norm. Too many teachers just don’t give a damn. It's a paycheck. It's security. It's benefits. The unions protect bad teachers, block innovation, choice and meaningful reform. Worse, reams of time are wasted on pure junk, the stuff of political correctness, multiculturalism, the banalities of sensitivity training, tolerance, acceptance, self-esteem, Mother Earth, Jenny Has Two Mommies, Johnny Has Two Daddies or whatever. . . .

 

[psikeyhackr]

This video says the chances of having 5 great teacher in a row is 1 in 17,000.

https://ideas.hmh.spigit.com/Page/theneed

So they are saying less than 1 in 7 teachers is great.

psik

 

[initforme]

Those that are critical of teachers could never, NEVER hack it in todays classroom. They would be on anti depressents within 2 weeks. And considering how the percentage of terrible parents outnumber the good ones in america now, its going to be tough to come up with a system to rate teachers. So lets leave it at if the principal likes you, you get the merit pay. I believe $5,000 per every kid a teacher helps do well would be a start. That would be a nice bonus for a good teacher.

 

[Momanohedhunter]

Sure there are good teachers...bet each of us can name three who changed our lives.

"Value-added teacher evaluation" can help identify the good ones.

From an interesting essay in the City Journal:

1. Value-added teacher evaluation—a method that estimates the contribution teachers make to student’s test-score gains—is a concept whose time has most definitely come. Californians are entitled to know precisely who is and isn’t delivering the goods for their children.

2. The Los Angeles Times last month published a much-anticipated follow-up to its path-breaking 2010 investigation, which ranked 6,000 third-, fourth-, and fifth-grade teachers based on their students’ progress on standardized tests year after year. The updated rankings include data for more than 11,500 teachers. Using the California Public Records Act, Times reporters Jason Felch, Jason Song, and Doug Smith obtained student math and language arts scores for the Los Angeles Unified School District from 2003 through 2009.

3. The newspaper commissioned Richard Budden, a senior economist and education researcher with the Santa Monica–based RAND Corporation, to analyze the data. Using the value-added technique, he converted the scores into percentile ratings, and then divided them into five equal categories from “least effective” to “most effective.”

4. The Times stories have exposed that what currently passes for teacher evaluation in California is useless. Currently, a principal or other administrator may visit a class several times (usually with a warning given long in advance), stay a few minutes, scribble down some notes, and leave….Thanks to this ineffective process, more than 99 percent of all teachers receive satisfactory ratings, and after just two years in the classroom achieve tenure—essentially a job for life.

5. Undaunted by the union’s bullying, the Times spent the next nine months showing the benefits of value-added teacher evaluations. The paper reported: “Highly effective teachers routinely propel students from below grade level to advanced in a single year. There is a substantial gap at year’s end between students whose teachers were in the top 10 percent in effectiveness and the bottom 10 percent. The fortunate students ranked 17 percentile points higher in English and 25 points higher in math.”

6. Studies have shown that two consecutive years with a bad teacher can leave students so far behind that they will never catch up.

7. Hoover Institution senior fellow and economist Eric Hanushek claims that while value-added analysis isn’t perfect, it’s “the best tool we have available to zero in on the impact of the individual teacher on student achievement gains.

8. Teachers’ unions dislike all forms of substantive teacher evaluation, viewing any kind of official differentiation among teachers as encouraging competition, which sows envy and thus undermines solidarity. Truth is, of course, objective evaluations show that some teachers really are more effective than others.Grading the Teachers by Larry Sand - City Journal


Let's not throw the baby out with the bad teachers....

Mrs Fisher.

Mrs Abedigeion (sp!)

FC1 Rumschlag. Good shits all.

 

[chikenwing]

Sure there are good teachers...bet each of us can name three who changed our lives.
[...]
6. Studies have shown that two consecutive years with a bad teacher can leave students so far behind that they will never catch up.
[...]

City Journal is full of simplistic nonsense and this is just another example. Two years will leave students behind forever? Where did this conclusion come from? A genuine study? No, of course not, it came from the imagination of someone too lazy to figure out what was really going on in our schools and in our culture. What about a lifetime of TV watching? That should destroy anyone forever. Or lousy, lazy parents? Or lousy, lazy self? How about the inner city schools that are falling down, and full of juvenile delinquents with little parental support? Anyone with half a brain would know two years hardly make up a lifetime, nor does school fill enough of that time to have such impact. You wanna know why some students do poorly? They just don't live in zip codes in which income is in the top brackets. If you doubt that check it out sometime and throw City Journal in the trash where it belongs.

Simplistic or not,its as true as the sun coming up in the east. It sounds like you have never had kids in a public school,might be wrong on that,but bet not.

 

[spectrumc01]

If a student likes the teacher, the teacher is viewed as good, and the student will excell. If the student doesn't like the teacher, the teacher is viewed as bad and the student will not excell. Same teacher different viewpoint. It's not wether teachers are good or bad, but rather are students good or bad.

 

[psikeyhackr]

If a student likes the teacher, the teacher is viewed as good, and the student will excell. If the student doesn't like the teacher, the teacher is viewed as bad and the student will not excell. Same teacher different viewpoint. It's not wether teachers are good or bad, but rather are students good or bad.

Students need to focus on the subject instead of the teacher. I got A's form teachers I liked and I got A's from teachers I could not stand in math and science. English teachers were all just OK and I only got B's. Who gives a damn about English Literature?

We should concentrate on getting really good books on the subject. The better the book the less dependent the students are on the teacher.

Teach Yourself Electricity and Electronics, Fourth Edition : McGraw-Hill Professional Online Book Store

psik

 

[Polk]

Stricter performance standards would improve the quality of education, but it's really a dodge of the real problem. Teachers are expected to be professionals, but they aren't paid the kind of salaries professionals are paid. The result is that people who end up becoming teachers are, by and large, the people who couldn't cut it in other areas.

Although senior teachers in NYC are paid over $100K...

...I believe that there is a great big dollop of truth in what you say, tie-man.
With the opportunities that have opened up for women in medicine and law, many top folks now look elsewhere for status and money.

I would like to see computers and technology used to their fullest...for teachers....so that a teacher could choose how many classes to teach, her time schedule, numbers of students in her classes....
....pay based on these parameters as well as performance.
My point is that said changes would allow women to pick teaching so as to fit it into having a family.

How many years of experience does a senior teacher have? 20? At that point, a secretary in NYC is making that much.

 

[linyatta]

from my point of view (elementary teacher for 8 years for title 1 schools), here are some of the things that aren't working;

1.) Some teachers don't seem to like kids. The truth is this, I don't know anyone that became a teacher because they didn't like kids. What I've seen is that young teachers (rather new teachers), don't come in with high enough expectations for the kids. The kids' behavior then gets out of control and the teacher, not wanting to seem like a BAD teacher, resorts to the oldest form of control, yelling and screaming. this leads to unhappy teachers and students. My students go to 5th grade and tell me all about their classrooms. I was there too for a couple of years, but I made adjustments and read a book.

We need prospective teachers to be able to observe great teachers. My student teaching taught me nothing and I was not prepared. There might be a supply and demand problem there.

2.) Parents in low income families are by and large not contributing in any way to their kids education. School is a break from their kid. Parent's are not interested or at least act uninterested in their progress. I know a lot of that is human nature, but its not good for the kid, teacher and test scores.

There is a direct correlation between the income of a family and how well I know the parents by the end of the year, and the children are never failing if I know their parents well.

3.) No child left behind, leaves children behind. Test scores require hard decisions at times. Students who are enrolled after Oct 4th do not count on test scores. Who do you think gets the in school tutoring we provide with push in subs, not them. What happens to the student who had to move mid year and has gaps to fill. They don't get filled. Its all for the almighty test score. Games are played with reclassification of English language learners (probably not a big deal, but I'm saying this is a science now).

I am at a very high performing school in southern california and we are the model for our large district.

4.) Our district requires so many tests we haven't got much time for teaching because we are either prepping for a test or taking a test. I counted once and it was over 8 weeks of testing (not for the whole day, but long enough where burnout plays a roll and the rest of the day is not productive).

5.) because we have to congregate as a district every year and applaud each others API scores with little skits (I'm not even joking about this), it has become clear that the score is all that matters anymore. Principals know this and are expendable. They need teachers who will get good scores. Teachers will do whatever it takes to keep the principal off of them so that means we perfect teaching to the test. My principal always said, you're not teaching to the test if your doing it all year. In other words, using test released question from day one is our normal teaching procedure.

This is not fun for anyone and is very stressful for the kids.

I want to leave the education industry soon. I just don't see any positive changes coming. We are the model, others aspire to be like my school, so where could I go.

Parental knowledge and interest is waning. This part of the triangle of learning (parents/teachers/students) is vital to any change. Your throwing money down a hole if the parents aren't involved in their child's learning.

BTW, i might be negative on education, but I have professional pride and care about those kids. I want it more than many of them do. I try to inspire and turn out good critical thinking students. Most teachers are this way, I know of only 2 that weren't in my years of teaching.

 

[initforme]

Linyatta,

Great post. Many good ideas and good insight. The majority of parents today simply view schools as a place to send their kids. They dont keep up with their kids education. When the kid gets a "c" or below right away its the teachers fault. Not to mention with the demonization of all teachers today in this country what high performing individual wants to stay in it? In america we have clearly shown 3 things...

1) We dont value education. We say we do, but we dont.
2) We view teachers (good ones) as second class citizens.
3) There is a large percentage of parents who are totally univolved in their kids education and they expect their kids to thrive academically. When their kids dont perform, its a simple out. It's the teachers fault.

When I hear people complain about teachers I hear

"only work 9 months"
" have summers off"
"not in it for the kids"

those are the same people who claim that in the US you are free to do what you want and you shouldnt be critical or envious of how someone else is doing. Dont be angry that someone is successful. Yet they complain about those who have decided to teach and do it successfully. They indeed are the definition of hypocrites.

 

[spectrumc01]

Perhaps a tax deduction for parents whose children achieve decent grades, attendance, and a diploma would motivate parents? We've tried everything else why not this?

 

[PoliticalChic]

Stricter performance standards would improve the quality of education, but it's really a dodge of the real problem. Teachers are expected to be professionals, but they aren't paid the kind of salaries professionals are paid. The result is that people who end up becoming teachers are, by and large, the people who couldn't cut it in other areas.

Although senior teachers in NYC are paid over $100K...

...I believe that there is a great big dollop of truth in what you say, tie-man.
With the opportunities that have opened up for women in medicine and law, many top folks now look elsewhere for status and money.

I would like to see computers and technology used to their fullest...for teachers....so that a teacher could choose how many classes to teach, her time schedule, numbers of students in her classes....
....pay based on these parameters as well as performance.
My point is that said changes would allow women to pick teaching so as to fit it into having a family.

How many years of experience does a senior teacher have? 20? At that point, a secretary in NYC is making that much.

Not for half a years work: 180 days in the school year.

 

[JamesInFlorida]

Although senior teachers in NYC are paid over $100K...

...I believe that there is a great big dollop of truth in what you say, tie-man.
With the opportunities that have opened up for women in medicine and law, many top folks now look elsewhere for status and money.

I would like to see computers and technology used to their fullest...for teachers....so that a teacher could choose how many classes to teach, her time schedule, numbers of students in her classes....
....pay based on these parameters as well as performance.
My point is that said changes would allow women to pick teaching so as to fit it into having a family.

How many years of experience does a senior teacher have? 20? At that point, a secretary in NYC is making that much.

Not for half a years work: 180 days in the school year.

In all fairness teachers work more than 8 hours a day, when you factor in they have to make lesson plans, and grade papers/projects/tests/etc. How many jobs is it required to take your job home with you? Not many.

Now I think teacher seniority getting more benefits than newer teachers is complete BS. But by no stretch of the imagination do teachers have an easy job.

 

[linyatta]

How many years of experience does a senior teacher have? 20? At that point, a secretary in NYC is making that much.

Not for half a years work: 180 days in the school year.

In all fairness teachers work more than 8 hours a day, when you factor in they have to make lesson plans, and grade papers/projects/tests/etc. How many jobs is it required to take your job home with you? Not many.

Now I think teacher seniority getting more benefits than newer teachers is complete BS. But by no stretch of the imagination do teachers have an easy job.

I have learned to work smarter over the years. I really don't take work home with me anymore. I pretty much work 8 hours a day. Not to say I don't think about work when I'm off, but who doesn't. I also know that lower grade levels have a lot more to do as far as planning and do work longer.

With the right technology in the classrooms the teacher can free up much time in grading (using scantrons or gradecam software with hovercams). Most of the year is testing anyway. And as I stated somewhere, I give very little homework and can spot check it in the morning during morning work with each child. I prefer to reteach at that time if needed.

I will never complain about the money I make for the time I work. I love the time off and the independence of the job. However, the fact that I am ready to go after only 8 years, with all the benefits and time off should tell you just how stressful it is. It absolutely zaps your energy.

The job, if done right, doesn't allow for a single free second in the day. I am never, ever sitting down. I take care of a myriad of problems every day while trying to keep everyone focused on standards. I work dances, give awards, take conferences for various things, judge science fairs, administer spelling bees and on and on. And all teachers help out with the many non academic programs, including sports. You better be willing and able to juggle many different things at the same time to be a teacher at the elementary level.

At the end of the day I am exhausted and ready for a dark, silent room. I am currently about midway through my 71 day vacation and I got to tell you, It's not long enough.

BTW, the reason I am exhausted is because of the difficulty in managing students today. Which stems from a lack of time, consequences and parental help. Students are wearing out the teachers.

I've heard that the average burnout rate is 5 years and that teachers were second behind police officers or alcoholism rates.

To those who think we're the enemy, don't hate me because I made the decision to go to college and get a secure job with good pay and a lot of time off. Teachers have always had the same work year. I didn't force anyone to set my terms of employment. You also had the option to do this but chose not to.

I subbed for a year before deciding on my credential. Believe me, without the time off, the decent starting salary, and the benefits, I would not have chosen this profession. Anyone going to school for 6 years to make 40k a year to start (in a high paying county), would need some added incentives.

 

[editec]

Nobody expects Doctors to score 100% sucess with patient outcomes.

Nobody expects lawyers to win every case.

Nobody expects accountants to interpret the tax laws correctly every time.

Nobody expects their stockbroker to give them good advice 100% of the time.

Nobody expects Generals to win every battle.

Nobody expects preachers to save every soul.

Nobody expects that their mechanics can keep their cars going forever.

Nobody expects bonds rating agencies to get it right every time.

Nobody expects CEOs to get every business decision absolutely right.

Nobody expects Congress to get it right every time

Nobody expect the SCOTUS to get it right every time

Nobody expects the POTUS to get it right every time.


But let one kid fall behind, and we're ready to tear apart our entire educational system and hang the teachers out to dry.