Good government vs Big government

[Quantum Windbag]

I consider the criminalization of murder to be an example of good government.

I consider it to be an example of a good law. Good government is not a single law, it is everything the government does, and how it does it.

Sounds like a hair not worth splitting to me.

Are you saying you cannot think of any laws that constitute big government?

Obamacare comes to mind.

 

[manifold]

I consider it to be an example of a good law. Good government is not a single law, it is everything the government does, and how it does it.

Sounds like a hair not worth splitting to me.

Are you saying you cannot think of any laws that constitute big government?

Obamacare comes to mind.

Agreed.

So now we have two obvious and extreme examples of each.

What about all the stuff in the gray areas?

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Sounds like a hair not worth splitting to me.

Are you saying you cannot think of any laws that constitute big government?

Obamacare comes to mind.

Agreed.

So now we have two obvious and extreme examples of each.

What about all the stuff in the gray areas?

Are we turning this into a discussion about law instead of government?

 

[manifold]

Obamacare comes to mind.

Agreed.

So now we have two obvious and extreme examples of each.

What about all the stuff in the gray areas?

Are we turning this into a discussion about law instead of government?

I don't see how the two can be separated.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Agreed.

So now we have two obvious and extreme examples of each.

What about all the stuff in the gray areas?

Are we turning this into a discussion about law instead of government?

I don't see how the two can be separated.

I can separate them because laws can exist without government.

 

[manifold]

Are we turning this into a discussion about law instead of government?

I don't see how the two can be separated.

I can separate them because laws can exist without government.

Sure, laws of physics and such, but not the kind enforced by man.

 

[pillars]

Are we turning this into a discussion about law instead of government?

I don't see how the two can be separated.

I can separate them because laws can exist without government.

How are laws enforced without government?

 

[Crystalclear]

In my opinion, good government is small and is there for police and courts. And providing vouchers for private healthcare and schools. Nothing more.

 

[BobPlumb]

How do you tell the difference?

Is big government like pornography, you can't define it but you know it when you see it?

Or is it more like beauty... in the eye of the beholder? Just like one man's nasty skank is another man's beauty queen, one man's authoritarian overreach is another man's just policy.

How do you decide whether a particular law or policy is big government or good government?

IMHO the answer to your question is KISS, Which stands for "Keep It Simple, Stupid". Government should be kept as simple as possible, as small as possible, doing only what is necessary. Unfortunately, it's the nature of government to grow and seek more power. To paraphrase a well know president, the closest thing we have on earth to immortality is a government program.

If government is not as simple and small as possible to perform only it's necessary functions, then it is too big. A major problem with this is agreeing on what are the necessary functions of government. At the federal level, I would say a good place to start would be with those areas explicitly listed in the constitution (not what it's morphed into acording to court rulings).

 

[Quantum Windbag]

I don't see how the two can be separated.

I can separate them because laws can exist without government.

Sure, laws of physics and such, but not the kind enforced by man.

Law is the set of rules or guidelines designed to govern behavior that are enforced through social institutions. Criminal law cannot exist without a government, but criminal law is far from the only possible type of law. There is canon law, which demonstrably exists without government. Additionally, there is a pretty volatile movement we can see in the US that says that violating the proscribed social norm should have consequences, hence the hounding of some people who express a view for traditional marriage out of corporate positions even though there is no government rule that gives them the authority to do so.

In essence, big government laws are laws that attempt to regulate non criminal behavior.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

I don't see how the two can be separated.

I can separate them because laws can exist without government.

How are laws enforced without government?

How do parents enforce the rules they laid out for your house? Are children aware that not obeying their parents will bring down consequences even though the government is not directly involved?

 

[oldfart]

I understand what you are getting at, but as stated you have a tar baby thread. Folks on the right will wax apoplectic about the evils of big government and those on the left will get defensive.

For myself, self-appointed spokesperson for the Left Opposition and Spartacist League, charter member of the Joseph Schumpeter school of humility, dedicated dilettante, and occasional economist with way too much time on my hands when not saving the world; this is a no brainer.

Large agglomerations of power, be it economic, social, religious, or political are inimical to economic growth and equality, destructive to liberty, self-perpetuating and mutually reinforcing evils and especially to be resisted when they tend to be passed to new generations.

Command mechanisms are only effective if very narrow circumstances; market mechanisms (not finance, or crony capitalism, monopoly and monopsonistic behavior) are superior. Regulation is necessary to address externalities and allow markets to work properly. The absence of effective regulation ("regulatory capture") is a a necessary condition for the formation of monopoly power.

Economic institutions are social constructs just like political and religious institutions, family and social relationships, and legal systems. When ossified they become non-functional and destructive to their original purposes. They either evolve or die. Anyone claiming they are immortal and unchanging is either a crook, delusional, or incredibly naive.

Cant and ideology of all kinds are symptoms of laziness and weak minds. The solution to bad public thinking is robust discourse. If you won't try to learn how to persuade, stay out of the debate. You are only engaging in intellectual masturbation. When large numbers of people persist in saying the same thing over and over without responding to others, it's a circle jerk.

To answer your question directly, good government is effective government responsive to the needs and will of the governed. It can be any size, is not necessarily scalable, but does have a tendency to become unworkable and inefficient with large size. The challenge in any setting, government, business, or social, is to get organizations to behave as if they were small organizations responsible to people they deal with on a daily basis.

Increasing size makes waste and corruption easier. There is a way to combat this. It involves realizing the dynamic that the concentration of power is self-perpetuating and liberty and opportunity require constant efforts to offset this tendency. This is not a static game; do nothing and we will have a feudal society in 25 years, where everyone knows their caste.

Finally, reason is not a shield to cower behind for protection; it is a sword to assault the high ground. Life has a bias for action. Try to protect what you have and you lose it. Try to advance freedom, opportunity, and justice for everyone and at least you get to live as a happy warrior.

So is that more like pornography or beauty?

There's a difference?

 

[oldfart]

It's rare to see so much time and effort put into not answering a question.

I appreciate the thoughtfully crafted replies, but I'm still no closer to having any kind of reliable blueprint to help me distinguish good government from big government.

Why is this so hard I wonder?

Perhaps you closed your mind when you formulated your own answer before the OP and dismiss everyone's thought if it is not identical to yours. You are the closed mind engaged in intellectual masturbation here. Get over yourself and grow up.

 

[oldfart]

No offense, but you have to show me good government before I can explain how it is different than big government.

I consider the criminalization of murder to be an example of good government.

I consider it to be an example of a good law. Good government is not a single law, it is everything the government does, and how it does it.

Now you have just degenerated into playing word games. Shame on you!

 

[pillars]

How do parents enforce the rules they laid out for your house? Are children aware that not obeying their parents will bring down consequences even though the government is not directly involved?

This post doesn't make any sense. Rules set by parents are meaningless if parents don't enforce them. Parents are able to enforce the rules because the children are dependent upon them and under their control.

Having good laws without a mechanism to enforce those laws = anarchy.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

How do parents enforce the rules they laid out for your house? Are children aware that not obeying their parents will bring down consequences even though the government is not directly involved?

This post doesn't make any sense. Rules set by parents are meaningless if parents don't enforce them. Parents are able to enforce the rules because the children are dependent upon them and under their control.

Having good laws without a mechanism to enforce those laws = anarchy.

Having no government does not mean having no means to enforce laws, it just means having no government.

 

[pillars]

In my opinion, good government is small and is there for police and courts. And providing vouchers for private healthcare and schools. Nothing more.

If there is no government, why would government need to provide vouchers for healthcare and schools? How does that fit into the concept of small government, exactly?

You want government to be small, but to simultaneously subsidize your lifestyle choices?

That's rather humorous.

 

[pillars]

Having no government does not mean having no means to enforce laws, it just means having no government.

Actually, having no government DOES mean not having the means to enforce (or for that matter, pass) laws. You can keep repeating what you've said, but it's completely nonsensical.

If people were motivated to follow rules without outside control, laws wouldn't be necessarily. And, if they aren't, then there must be a means to enforce the law. That means is government.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Having no government does not mean having no means to enforce laws, it just means having no government.

Actually, having no government DOES mean not having the means to enforce (or for that matter, pass) laws. You can keep repeating what you've said, but it's completely nonsensical.

If people were motivated to follow rules without outside control, laws wouldn't be necessarily. And, if they aren't, then there must be a means to enforce the law. That means is government.

That would only be true if you can prove that government is the only means to enforce laws/rules. Good luck with that since I can point to people enforcing a law in the Sterling case.

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

How do you tell the difference?

Is big government like pornography, you can't define it but you know it when you see it?

Or is it more like beauty... in the eye of the beholder? Just like one man's nasty skank is another man's beauty queen, one man's authoritarian overreach is another man's just policy.

How do you decide whether a particular law or policy is big government or good government?

There is no such thing as ‘big’ government or ‘small’ government; government exists as an expression of the will of the people, as to the type of government they desire, its role, and the benefits realized as a consequence of type of government the people create.

In the United States our government exists as intended by the Framers, by the people, and in accordance with a 21 Century, industrialized, modern Western Constitutional Republic.

In essence our government is the ‘size’ it should be.

As to determining whether a particular law or policy is good government, that’s accomplished in the context of the Constitution and its case law, where although our rights are inalienable, they are not absolute, and subject to reasonable restrictions.

But the burden to justify government’s desire to place restrictions on our civil liberties rests most heavily with the state – where the state must demonstrate its actions are rationally based, justified by objective, documented facts and evidence, and pursue a proper legislative end.

When the people perceive an act of government to violate their civil liberties, they have the right to petition the government for a redress of grievances by challenging the state’s action in Federal court to seek relief. And should the courts determine an act of government repugnant to the Constitution in accordance with its case law, such measures are invalidated.

Sound and appropriate governance is thus realized through this process of political action and judicial review, subject to the rule of law as codified by the Constitution.