God given rights?

[SniperFire]

Still haven't read it, I see. Let me help. Here is the opening line...

"Preamble: John, by the grace of God..."

You see, he can grant rights because he is given that power by God. As I said, that is how you play the God-granted game.

You are failing. LOL

The 'rights' to the people in the Magna Carta are granted by the King.

Let me know when you actually have an argument.

I have given you the link, and you choose to remain ignorant.

Then again, I expected nothing more from you.

 

[Katzndogz]

Now you are just being a tool. England was not founded on the sovereignty of the individual based on God-granted unalienable rights.

While England was not founded on the sovereignity of the individual based on God-granted rights that changed. England, like all monarchies was founded on the divine right of Kings to rule. King John abused that power and to stop a civil war against his authority he signed the Magna Carta which recognized certain inalienable God-granted rights.

Magna Carta is about king granted rights, not God-granted rights.

'Magna Carta's philosophy of king-granted rights stands, therefore, for the antithesis of the traditional American philosophy of Man-over-Government, based upon the uniquely American concept of God-given, unalienable rights safeguarded by a system of constitutionally limited government created by the sovereign people, under a written Constitution adopted by them, primarily to make and keep these rights secure.'

Magna Carta's King-granted Rights

It was actually about forcing the King to recognize that everyone had God given rights. Not just him, and the nobles had the power to defend those rights. At the time the Magna Carta was written, the King was God on earth. God said whatever the King said He said. By forcing the King to accept inalienable rights granted by God, as God's own representative, those rights came through the King. They had to. There was no other way except to declare the King had no right to rule at all and no one was willing to do that.

Americans had no King and no divine right of Kings to rule. And no intermediary was necessary for our rights to come directly from God.

It's a distinction without a difference, but a distinction nonetheless.

What we have now is a recognition that the Constitution, which secures and protects those rights only exists as long as there are people to defend the rights it secures. When people stop believing they have rights that come from God, the Constitution become unnecessary and inapplicable.

Our founders knew at the time the Constitution was written that it would not last forever. It would be set aside in favor of despotism.

Benjamin Franklin's speech.

Speech of Benjamin Franklin - The U.S. Constitution Online - USConstitution.net

In these sentiments, Sir, I agree to this Constitution with all its faults, if they are such; because I think a general Government necessary for us, and there is no form of Government but what may be a blessing to the people if well administered, and believe farther that this is likely to be well administered for a course of years, and can only end in Despotism, as other forms have done before it, when the people shall become so corrupted as to need despotic Government, being incapable of any other.

If we have not reached that very day now, we are awfully close.

 

[regent]

Of course the Magna Carta gave rights to the nobles, the elites not the common folk. As for Jefferson and those people, God gave rights to the people, but it was up to the people to implement and maintain those rights. Remember Jefferson was a Deist, he believed there was a God but once God had done his creative work, he left, the rest was up to the people.

 

[Barb]

Again, you are being intentionally obtuse, commie.

That we have rights does not mean they cannot be wrongfully violated.

How can they be violated, if they're God-given?

That is rather stupid.

If your idea of god has your back, why isn't he defending you, if you're right and every one else is wrong? Wouldn't your idea of a correct life be upheld in ALL instances if you were on the side of the cross and every one else was campaigning for the devil?

MAYBE Gawd doesn't agree with you!
ermegerd!

MAYBE it isn't all easy and cut and dried like you were taught.

MAY be we're supposed to ARGUE about it all, and make sure it made sense in OUR time.

MAY be we aren't SUPPOSED to be so cock-sure of ourselves and our translations of the divine will.

Wouldn't THAT be a kick in the ass?

 

[BlindBoo]

Pratchett Fan simply refuses to acknowledge that the Declaration of Independence proves the United States of America was founded as a defacto theocracy on July 4, 1776.

Of course I don't acknowledge that. It's silly.

Read it sometime.

That document did not establish a country/government much less a Theocracy!

 

[BlindBoo]

Must suck to go thru life as a godless Leftist who must go as far as to ignore our Declaration of Independence.

I'm not ignoring anything. If rights are really God-given, why would we need government at all?

Because God wants us to rule ourselves according to His precepts. That is why this whole ball got rolling in the first place. The country was FOUNDED on that principle.

Folks like you are just bound and determined to change that, and it's sad to see.

Nope. The colonies seperated from the rule of the King of England on that principle. The USA was founded on this:

"We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America"

 

[regent]

The Declaration of Independence is a great work, but as I learned in a history class also a great piece of propaganda. The propaganda bit usually drives people up the wall until they look up the definition of propaganda. In any case the Declaration has no legal force but if one takes the time they might connect the Constitution in spots to the Declaration. Great extra credit project. Another interesting aspect of the Declaration is that Jefferson, as most college students of his time, probably took Logic 101 and his argument was almost a perfect syllogism. Another good project for the extra credit student.

 

[BlindBoo]

Oh and the Christains God <> Creator. All religions have a creation myth.

 

[PratchettFan]

While England was not founded on the sovereignity of the individual based on God-granted rights that changed. England, like all monarchies was founded on the divine right of Kings to rule. King John abused that power and to stop a civil war against his authority he signed the Magna Carta which recognized certain inalienable God-granted rights.

Magna Carta is about king granted rights, not God-granted rights.

'Magna Carta's philosophy of king-granted rights stands, therefore, for the antithesis of the traditional American philosophy of Man-over-Government, based upon the uniquely American concept of God-given, unalienable rights safeguarded by a system of constitutionally limited government created by the sovereign people, under a written Constitution adopted by them, primarily to make and keep these rights secure.'

Magna Carta's King-granted Rights

It was actually about forcing the King to recognize that everyone had God given rights. Not just him, and the nobles had the power to defend those rights. At the time the Magna Carta was written, the King was God on earth. God said whatever the King said He said. By forcing the King to accept inalienable rights granted by God, as God's own representative, those rights came through the King. They had to. There was no other way except to declare the King had no right to rule at all and no one was willing to do that.

Americans had no King and no divine right of Kings to rule. And no intermediary was necessary for our rights to come directly from God.

It's a distinction without a difference, but a distinction nonetheless.

What we have now is a recognition that the Constitution, which secures and protects those rights only exists as long as there are people to defend the rights it secures. When people stop believing they have rights that come from God, the Constitution become unnecessary and inapplicable.

Our founders knew at the time the Constitution was written that it would not last forever. It would be set aside in favor of despotism.

Benjamin Franklin's speech.

Speech of Benjamin Franklin - The U.S. Constitution Online - USConstitution.net

In these sentiments, Sir, I agree to this Constitution with all its faults, if they are such; because I think a general Government necessary for us, and there is no form of Government but what may be a blessing to the people if well administered, and believe farther that this is likely to be well administered for a course of years, and can only end in Despotism, as other forms have done before it, when the people shall become so corrupted as to need despotic Government, being incapable of any other.

If we have not reached that very day now, we are awfully close.

Just dealing with your comment on the Magna Carta, it was indeed the King extending the rights down. However, those rights came to the King through God. What Sniper seems unable or unwilling to accept is that this concept of "God given" is not new. It has been used over and over again, usually to support repression by the few over the many. Which is why I don't trust it. It is a justification and nothing more, and what it is justifies is always in the eyes of the beholder. There is a reason why all through history God only grants rights to the holder of the sword.

Human rights exist only when they are demanded by a free people. When the demand goes away, so do the rights. The Founding Fathers knew this. It seems today people have become so used to the rights other people died to obtain that they see them not as something to defend but rather as something to presume. It's an entitlement to which they see no obligation to earn.

 

[JohnA]

It would take several paragraphs to explain to you the righteousness of God's allowing the evil we see in this fallen world, but I'm almost certain it would be a waste of my minimal typing skills to do so. The beauty of the free will that God gave you is that you can use it for whatever purpose your heart desires, good or evil.

We can see what the vast majority of humanity has chosen, and it isn't good.

sure we have free will
free will to kill those who dont follow our religious doctrine ,
free will to abuse little boys as in the catholic church
free will to hate those who live a alternative lifestye .and then invent a devil (evil) and blame hm for all the bad things , while at the same time inventing a god (good ) and let him take the credit for all the good things in life .

meanwhile those of us who dont have a deity take full responsibility for all the things we do good or bad .. ...no passing the buck

You must've been an altar boy... Seek counseling for your rage issues, you'll feel better.

cus I dont agree with your premise does,nt mean i have * rage * just that i look at things in a logical way ....maybe if you considered other folks ideas instead of being a bigot you would be a better person

 

[GuyPinestra]

sure we have free will
free will to kill those who dont follow our religious doctrine ,
free will to abuse little boys as in the catholic church
free will to hate those who live a alternative lifestye .and then invent a devil (evil) and blame hm for all the bad things , while at the same time inventing a god (good ) and let him take the credit for all the good things in life .

meanwhile those of us who dont have a deity take full responsibility for all the things we do good or bad .. ...no passing the buck

You must've been an altar boy... Seek counseling for your rage issues, you'll feel better.

cus I dont agree with your premise does,nt mean i have * rage * just that i look at things in a logical way ....maybe if you considered other folks ideas instead of being a bigot you would be a better person

A bigot, huh? And who am I bigoted against? And what have I done that leads you to believe I need to be a 'better' person?

I think your definition of 'better person' would be someone who would willingly give up their convictions in the face of some atheist trying to convince me that there is no God.

Good luck with that one, fella, and pack a lunch, it's gonna take you awhile...

 

[JohnA]

You must've been an altar boy... Seek counseling for your rage issues, you'll feel better.

cus I dont agree with your premise does,nt mean i have * rage * just that i look at things in a logical way ....maybe if you considered other folks ideas instead of being a bigot you would be a better person

A bigot, huh? And who am I bigoted against? And what have I done that leads you to believe I need to be a 'better' person?

I think your definition of 'better person' would be someone who would willingly give up their convictions in the face of some atheist trying to convince me that there is no God.

Good luck with that one, fella, and pack a lunch, it's gonna take you awhile...

no i have no wish and never expressed for you to give up your convictions ,as long as they make you happy fine with me. many of my friends i hold dear share similar opinions to yours .
this site allows for all religions & political views to come together and share . i posted my views about the reality of a diety without malice rudeness or assumptions and you accused me of rage . and then made a snide remark about a alter boy .. not a response i take to kindly .
. .

 

[GuyPinestra]

cus I dont agree with your premise does,nt mean i have * rage * just that i look at things in a logical way ....maybe if you considered other folks ideas instead of being a bigot you would be a better person

A bigot, huh? And who am I bigoted against? And what have I done that leads you to believe I need to be a 'better' person?

I think your definition of 'better person' would be someone who would willingly give up their convictions in the face of some atheist trying to convince me that there is no God.

Good luck with that one, fella, and pack a lunch, it's gonna take you awhile...

no i have no wish and never expressed for you to give up your convictions ,as long as they make you happy fine with me. many of my friends i hold dear share similar opinions to yours .
this site allows for all religions & political views to come together and share . i posted my views about the reality of a diety without malice rudeness or assumptions and you accused me of rage . and then made a snide remark about a alter boy .. not a response i take to kindly .
. .

You really shouldn't have your panties in a wad, because this...

sure we have free will
free will to kill those who dont follow our religious doctrine ,
free will to abuse little boys as in the catholic church
free will to hate those who live a alternative lifestye .and then invent a devil (evil) and blame hm for all the bad things , while at the same time inventing a god (good ) and let him take the credit for all the good things in life .

meanwhile those of us who dont have a deity take full responsibility for all the things we do good or bad .. ...no passing the buck

...seemed just a tad malicious to me.

ETA: Nice dodge on the 'bigot' questions, BTW... Think you can get around to answering for your spurious charge?

 

[Mr. Shaman]

God given rights?

It's sounding MORE like God-given.....​

....REPUBLICAN ASS-KICKIN'!!!!!

"Previously, Robertson had argued that Hurricane Katrina was God&#8217;s punishment for abortion, while the Rev. John Hagee said the storm was God&#8217;s way of punishing homosexuality. The late Jerry Falwell thought that God allowed the Sept. 11 attacks as retribution for feminists and the ACLU.

Even if you don&#8217;t believe God uses meteorological phenomena to express His will, it&#8217;s difficult for mere mortals to explain what is happening to the GOP just now."

 

[flacaltenn]

Only a true party animal would revive a thread like this with SERIOUS topical discussion just to piss on it and tag it with crayons... And THEN -- I guess just flee the scene...

Was that the plan? Or did you enjoy the 25 pages of discussion concerning Natural Rights and man-made law?