Georgia Seniors Told They Can't Pray Before Meals

[Avatar4321]

As usual, the right can't do nuance on the separation of church and state issue.

Which is probably why they are so confused.

How is serving people food a separation of Church and state issue?

It's about where the funds come from. Some folks want to have their federally funded lunch cake and eat it too. They want to accept federal dollars and still act like they're in church.

And who the heck are you tell them they can't worship God in Public when the Constitution Guarentees them that right?

 

[Avatar4321]

do you honestly think so little of your god that he does not hear the prayers of your heart?

Are you insecure in your faith that you can't accept people exercising their God given freedom to praise Him in public?

Some people don't consider god to be a him or her.

And they would be wrong. So what?

 

[Avatar4321]

Why? It's a government endorsement of God and should be removed IMO.

Because acknowleging our Creator is clearly a great evil in this world right?

Belief in a creator god is not a citizen nor tax payer requirement.

No one argued that it was. But you can't stop it simply because you are intolerant.

 

[Avatar4321]

Consider how to make prayer inclusive for all people....pray silently....give people the option of praying in silence or sitting in respectful silence.

Pray vigorously and loudly in all private places including houses of worship. Live and let live.

Think of how few people like to hear the Koran recited in public.

Simply because you wouldn't like it doesn't mean the rest of us who like freedom of religion would care at all.

 

[Againsheila]

Say your grace silently and respectfully or say it in your home or church. Don't make me say it with you. If we both pray in silence there is connection and respect.

I have the right to free expression of my religion and you don't have the right to stop me. If there's more than one person saying grace, we say it aloud, that's just the way it is. You can sit by yourself and pray to whomever you want but you have no right to dictate that my friends and I can't pray simply because it offends you.

Thanksgiving at my house, we say grace, and then we each come up with something for which we are grateful. Now, if for some reason we eat Thanksgiving dinner out<and I'd really like to have a Thanksgiving dinner I didn't have to cook>, I'm not going to stop that tradition because it may offend someone like you.

Would you like to have my Buddhist prayer publically inflicted on you? Probably not.

I have no problems with your Buddhist prayer. I will sit silently while you finish it. I'll even say "Amen" when you're done. Happy?

 

[Againsheila]

Quit robbing my wallet and they can do as they want.
The real story here is why am I, and not their families, paying for their meals?
Plenty of wannahbe conservatives here.

So you don't think we should have to support our elderly? Our disabled? When did we stop being a civilized country?

What I think he means is that the primary people who are to be supporting them should be their families and local communities and not the Federal Government.

A point which has validity.

Yes, but what of those who don't have family? What of those who's families preceded them in death? Or what of people like my husband and myself who have two special needs kids, one of which will never be able to support himself, let alone help support his parents?

I guess they want to go back to the days when the elderly walked out in the woods to die. When a special needs child was left to die while the tribe moved on....I'm not there, I believe in civilization and I believe in taking care of each other.

 

[Sky Dancer]

I have the right to free expression of my religion and you don't have the right to stop me. If there's more than one person saying grace, we say it aloud, that's just the way it is. You can sit by yourself and pray to whomever you want but you have no right to dictate that my friends and I can't pray simply because it offends you.

Thanksgiving at my house, we say grace, and then we each come up with something for which we are grateful. Now, if for some reason we eat Thanksgiving dinner out<and I'd really like to have a Thanksgiving dinner I didn't have to cook>, I'm not going to stop that tradition because it may offend someone like you.

Would you like to have my Buddhist prayer publically inflicted on you? Probably not.

I have no problems with your Buddhist prayer. I will sit silently while you finish it. I'll even say "Amen" when you're done. Happy?

And I could sit silently and listen to your prayer too--in your home--even in a restaurant--just not organized and sponsored by a group recieving federal dollars.

It occurs to me that if the seniors wanted to pray aloud they could still do it as long as it wasn't organized by the sponsors of the lunch who recieve the federal funding.

My point in mentioning the Buddhist prayer is that it is NOT the prayer being offered at grace, which is a Christian prayers.

Everyone thinks seniors all think alike about issues. They don't.

 

[Sky Dancer]

Consider how to make prayer inclusive for all people....pray silently....give people the option of praying in silence or sitting in respectful silence.

Pray vigorously and loudly in all private places including houses of worship. Live and let live.

Think of how few people like to hear the Koran recited in public.

Simply because you wouldn't like it doesn't mean the rest of us who like freedom of religion would care at all.

I think that's the point exactly. If you cared about ALL the seniors, and not just christian ones your message would be recieived in spaciousness.

It occurs to me that as a Buddhist silent prayer and meditation mean something very positive to me, and silence to others may mean oppression.

Silence means an opportunity to relax the mind, open the heart and sit in open. spacious presence. Because that's what silence means to me, it is incredulous from my viewpoint that anyone would be threatened by it.

 

[Sky Dancer]

Because acknowleging our Creator is clearly a great evil in this world right?

Belief in a creator god is not a citizen nor tax payer requirement.

No one argued that it was. But you can't stop it simply because you are intolerant.

What am I intolerant of? I accept that you see god as a creator and that you assert that as long as you get to say your chrisitan prayer over a meal all others who object can just stuff it. Doesn't seem a very christian attitude.

I think you may be intolerant of those who prefer a moment of silence over a prayer that is meaningless to a non-christian.

 

[Sky Dancer]

Are you insecure in your faith that you can't accept people exercising their God given freedom to praise Him in public?

Some people don't consider god to be a him or her.

And they would be wrong. So what?

And you assert that god is male. You could be wrong. It could be god is not a person at all.

Supreme being does not imply ego or gender.

 

[Sky Dancer]

How is serving people food a separation of Church and state issue?

It's about where the funds come from. Some folks want to have their federally funded lunch cake and eat it too. They want to accept federal dollars and still act like they're in church.

And who the heck are you tell them they can't worship God in Public when the Constitution Guarentees them that right?

They can't pray and have the prayer organized by the same entity recieving the federal dollars. If 'citizen elderly' wants to stand and lead a prayer even with federal funds I think he could do it. It just can't be organized by the group serving the federally funded meal.

Likewise, if citizen elderly is Buddhist, he may organize a Buddhist grace. But truth is, in Japanese and other asian american senior centers they are more tolerant of other faiths and don't say a Buddhist grace out of respect for their diverse attendants, including white christians.

This is just anecdotal evidence, take it or leave it. I worked with the elderly for many years as a social worker in a large metropolitan area and attended many communal elderly meals.

 

[Sky Dancer]

Let people pray in silently in public buildings using federal dollars. It's perfectly reasonable. If the seniors want to pray out loud let them meet in a church and have their communal meals there. Let the churches fund the loud prayers.

No. It isn't perfectly reasonable to tell someone they can worship only if they comport with your ideas.

Separation of church and state is such that government cannot sponsor religion. Once again, the organizers of the lunch meal cannot be seen to organize prayer. It could come from one of the attendants and not set off any alarms.

It would go down smoother with non-christian attendants.

Otherwise, the organizers of the meal can lead the group in a moment of silence. It has to be one or the other.

 

[Sky Dancer]

How is serving people food a separation of Church and state issue?

It's about where the funds come from. Some folks want to have their federally funded lunch cake and eat it too. They want to accept federal dollars and still act like they're in church.

And who the heck are you tell them they can't worship God in Public when the Constitution Guarentees them that right?

I'm not telling them anything. I'm merely offering opinions on something that has happened in the news.

 

[Sky Dancer]

Let people pray in silently in public buildings using federal dollars. It's perfectly reasonable. If the seniors want to pray out loud let them meet in a church and have their communal meals there. Let the churches fund the loud prayers.

No. It isn't perfectly reasonable to tell someone they can worship only if they comport with your ideas.

The point is the government due to separation of church and state cannot be seen to be promoting a specific religion--like this christian grace.

The organizers of the meal cannot lead the prayer. Some senior citizen attending could spontaneously lead a prayer and it would not violate this rule. There could be a great outpouring of prayers offered in turn with christian grace being one of many said. It's the rule. If you accept federal funds for your meal program you cannot promote a specific religion--such as a christian grace that excludes non-christians.

We live in a plurality--not majority rule.

 

[Sky Dancer]

Continue to blow the whole thing out of proportion. The reality is if you have a moment of silence you still get to pray--you just don't get to make others recite YOUR particular prayer.

What if all the other non-christian religions asked for equal prayer time? Are Christians the only seniors? Why is Christian grace required for a meal? I say pray silently in public and loudly at home and at church.

You have no right to enforce such an activity on other people. We are protected under the Constitution.

They can pray all they want. No one is stopping them. Nor is anyone stoppping them from choosing not to pray if they want.

But the idea that the Federal Government has the power to take someones right to freely exercise their religion and to freely speak is absurd.

You can say what you want all you want. But you cant enforce your viewpoints on others through government action.

Separation of church and state is constitutional.

 

[Againsheila]

Would you like to have my Buddhist prayer publically inflicted on you? Probably not.

I have no problems with your Buddhist prayer. I will sit silently while you finish it. I'll even say "Amen" when you're done. Happy?

And I could sit silently and listen to your prayer too--in your home--even in a restaurant--just not organized and sponsored by a group recieving federal dollars.

It occurs to me that if the seniors wanted to pray aloud they could still do it as long as it wasn't organized by the sponsors of the lunch who recieve the federal funding.

My point in mentioning the Buddhist prayer is that it is NOT the prayer being offered at grace, which is a Christian prayers.

Everyone thinks seniors all think alike about issues. They don't.

I don't remember anything in the article about the prayer being sponsored by the senior center. I don't even remember it saying that ALL the seniors were saying grace. As for the sponsors of the lunch, they are the ones who complained because they saw some of the seniors saying grace. What a crock.

Talk about intolerance. I'm tolerant of your religion you are tolerant of nobody's religion.

 

[Againsheila]

Belief in a creator god is not a citizen nor tax payer requirement.

No one argued that it was. But you can't stop it simply because you are intolerant.

What am I intolerant of? I accept that you see god as a creator and that you assert that as long as you get to say your chrisitan prayer over a meal all others who object can just stuff it. Doesn't seem a very christian attitude.

I think you may be intolerant of those who prefer a moment of silence over a prayer that is meaningless to a non-christian.

You are intolerant of Christians saying grace before a meal if it happens to be in front of you.

 

[boedicca]

No, my feelings are not based on resentment and jealousy. I have nothing to envy from Christians. I wouldn't want to be one anymore that I'd like to be a white male, regardless of the advantages.

My feelings are based on what is right and fair to all people.

Cause telling people they can't pray outloud or they won't get food is right and fair to all

Telling people they can't eat unless they pray loudly to YOUR god in YOUR way is fair and right to all.

I call shenanigans.

Nobody told any of the seniors they had to say a Christian Grace as a condition of eating the meal.

 

[boedicca]

One thing is very clear from this thread: Sky Dancer would benefit from remedial education regarding the meaning of The Constitution.

 

[Againsheila]

It's about where the funds come from. Some folks want to have their federally funded lunch cake and eat it too. They want to accept federal dollars and still act like they're in church.

And who the heck are you tell them they can't worship God in Public when the Constitution Guarentees them that right?

They can't pray and have the prayer organized by the same entity recieving the federal dollars. If 'citizen elderly' wants to stand and lead a prayer even with federal funds I think he could do it. It just can't be organized by the group serving the federally funded meal.

Likewise, if citizen elderly is Buddhist, he may organize a Buddhist grace. But truth is, in Japanese and other asian american senior centers they are more tolerant of other faiths and don't say a Buddhist grace out of respect for their diverse attendants, including white christians.

This is just anecdotal evidence, take it or leave it. I worked with the elderly for many years as a social worker in a large metropolitan area and attended many communal elderly meals.

Yep, you make things up as you go along just to justify your own intolerance. I expected better of you.

BTW, there are a lot of people from Japan who are Christian. Many of them are still Shinto. Buddhist are not in the majority as you would think. In fact, of all the students from Japan that I've hosted, and I've hosted a lot. NONE were Buddhist. One was Christian and the rest pretty much didn't have a religion.

Considering my anecdotal evidence is from experience, I think it trumps yours. What do you think?