From an actual independent (me)

[initforme]

Independents are independent thinkers. They don't need a cult to tell them how to think. They are among the MOST responsible people in the nation and they will always be needed by the two major sheepkes.

 

[YoursTruly]

During the Cold War perhaps, times have changed and there are two well defined sides. Those who support the Constitution and those who don't.

You're not digging into the details far enough. Pardon me, but which part of the Constitution are you talking about? There are things in the constitution that at least need to be defined specifically. As in militia. Did they mean people in the military back then? Because now a days, it means a group of citizens now employed by the government (IE cops, national guard or US military) <<< Only mentioned as an example. I'm not looking for your definition.
Both parties have strayed from the constitution (as written), in many MANY ways. Too many to mention.
A good example of this is the supposed "eminent domain" clause that both Republicans and democrats agree with. The 5th Amendment's last sentence is where this comes from. But the short amendment deals with suspected criminals and the governments authority over them. So why would they completely change the subject in the last line? They didn't. They were still talking about suspected criminals. Not a land owner, who's not committed a crime, or suspected of one, having to give up the rights to his property so the government can build a road or allow some oil company to put a pipeline through.

Being so-called independents is little more than a sham to remove yourselves from responsibility.

We have just as much responsibility as anyone. I'm not sure where you're getting that from. Maybe it's just a way for you to justify yourself being a party loyalist.
When you're own party has been exposed for corruption or lies, party loyalist don't take the responsibility to hold their party accountable. In fact, when Tulsi Gabbard and the other two women exposed the DNC nomination rigging for Hillary, they allowed the DNC to nominate her anyways. The party loyalist rewarded them, instead of punishing them.

The reason independents usually fail is because luckily there are still enough people who aren't so stupid as to cede the country to a bunch of self-important yahoos with no underlying principles whose chief attribute is their disconnected self interests.

No underlying principles? Independents are 1000 times more principled than party loyalist. Not to mention, we're not the ones going around patting ourselves on the back, while we blindly follow a party with proven corruption. We are principled enough to keep that sort of thing at bay.

 

[YoursTruly]

It's a herd mentality. They don't want you to call out all their countless flaws.

I can't count the times I've been called a Trumper and a liberal in the same thread. And I'm neither.

 

[initforme]

Stay the course. They are myopic. They falsely have nothing to back up their stances.

 

[YoursTruly]

Stay the course. They are myopic. They falsely have nothing to back up their stances.

Thank you, I plan to. Someone mentioned it was like an addiction or some sorts. I agree. Going back to being a party loyalist now, would be like a druggy going back to his drug of choice. One that wrecked his life before.


Voting for anyone is like co-signing for them. Those who voted for Biden co-signed for the kids who are still kept in cages on the border. They co signed for all those who were set free and won't show up for their immigration hearing. They co-signed for the Afghanistan screw up. They co signed for the inflation increase.
There's a long list of bad things that Trump supporters so signed for as well.

Voting for a party or a person means you co signed for them. And you're partially responsible for everything they say and do.

99% of them haven't done enough good to get my vote. It's my vote and my conscious. It's not a political chess match to me.

 

[MinTrut]

I stopped being a party loyalist like 10 years ago. I've been a die hard democrat, die hard republican and libertarian. I've spewed the talking points in political arguments for my party. I've dug and researched for hours to try and prove the other side wrong. And I've ignored the things that were wrong with my party and done my best to the change the subject, when challenged. When I was a party loyalist, the "whataboutism" spewed regularly. Why? Because regardless of what party I was loyal to, there was still things wrong with my party. Things that I "overlooked." I had to overlook them, because I was a party loyalist.
Now that I'm not one, I can call out the wrongs with any party or any politician. I've called out Trump on his many lies, Pelosi on her lies and corrupt way she runs the house. McConnell, Ryan, Schumer and the rest of them. All with a clear conscious.
I've also praised Trump when he or the others, when they did or said something that I agreed with.
As a true independent, and an actual conservative, I must say, I wished you party loyalist would just STFU. Y'all sound retarded. The left going on and on and on about Trump. And the right going on and on about the stolen election. Even if it was stolen, it's done. It's over with and nothing is going to change it now.
When both sides (voters.. You people) realize that the ONLY arguments that need to be taking place, are you against your own parties, or both, because they refuse to do what's right for the vast majority of "We the people." Things like Pelosi not allowing your congressman to introduce amendments on the house floor, without first going through committee. (Which is code for lobbyist approval). Also all the spending that goes on inside these bills that are never made public. We only get a glimpse at the BS spending, when a politician wants to make a point about the other party. Things like spending for "Gender studies in Pakistan." Huge funding to corporations or special interest in a Covid relief bill or stimulus package

And please, for the love of god, when a party member exposes something corrupt within their own party, don't rag on them for making the party look bad. Praise them for trying to make the party better. (IE Tulsi Gabbard, Ron Paul, Justin Amash, Dennis Kucinich). Those people, if they ran the party, would actually bring honesty and transparency to their parties. Which would give you people a lot less to argue and fight about.

The right and the left created this retarded system. It's by design to:
1. Keep the voters arguing amongst themselves
2. Stay in power.
3. Allow those with the money to dictate legislation. Legislation that the vast majority of "we the people" would object to. (IE bank bailouts, foreign interventions, spending, and just about everything else)

Party loyalty is something that we'd expect to go on in places like Russia. But it goes on right here. People choosing their party and their talking points over their family and friends. Fact: The R & D's want their voters fighting with each other because they know that if all got along, we'd go against them.

Taken from a song I like:

1. Train the people only to consume
2. Influence adults with the news
3. Indoctrinate the children through the schools and the music and the phones and apps that they use.
4. Separate the right from the left.
5. Separate the white from the black.
6. Separate the rich from the poor. Use religion and equality to separate them more.
7. Fabricate a problem made of lies.
8. Put it on the news every night.
9. When people start to fight and divide, take control. This is called "situational design."

The left had nothing to do with any of it; the left is tiny and powerless.

The two crime gang parties are both conservative, with the Democrat Party primarily existing to keep ANY actual goal of the left from ever advancing.

 

[MinTrut]

Your post reminded me of this very accurate video:

The behavior is accurate, but it's a right/right paradigm, not a right/left.

A good cop/bad cop farce put on by the conservative corporatist permastate while the needs of The People are ignored and undermined.

 

[YoursTruly]

The left had nothing to do with any of it; the left is tiny and powerless.

The two crime gang parties are both conservative, with the Democrat Party primarily existing to keep ANY actual goal of the left from ever advancing.

Wait. What? The left has nothing to do with it? They're just as responsible for the brainwashing as the right. ATM, they're more responsible.

Ok, I think I see what's going on here. You're that one who said the democrats and the left aren't the same thing, right?

 

[Rogue AI]

You're not digging into the details far enough. Pardon me, but which part of the Constitution are you talking about? There are things in the constitution that at least need to be defined specifically. As in militia. Did they mean people in the military back then? Because now a days, it means a group of citizens now employed by the government (IE cops, national guard or US military) <<< Only mentioned as an example. I'm not looking for your definition.
Both parties have strayed from the constitution (as written), in many MANY ways. Too many to mention.
A good example of this is the supposed "eminent domain" clause that both Republicans and democrats agree with. The 5th Amendment's last sentence is where this comes from. But the short amendment deals with suspected criminals and the governments authority over them. So why would they completely change the subject in the last line? They didn't. They were still talking about suspected criminals. Not a land owner, who's not committed a crime, or suspected of one, having to give up the rights to his property so the government can build a road or allow some oil company to put a pipeline through.



We have just as much responsibility as anyone. I'm not sure where you're getting that from. Maybe it's just a way for you to justify yourself being a party loyalist.
When you're own party has been exposed for corruption or lies, party loyalist don't take the responsibility to hold their party accountable. In fact, when Tulsi Gabbard and the other two women exposed the DNC nomination rigging for Hillary, they allowed the DNC to nominate her anyways. The party loyalist rewarded them, instead of punishing them.




No underlying principles? Independents are 1000 times more principled than party loyalist. Not to mention, we're not the ones going around patting ourselves on the back, while we blindly follow a party with proven corruption. We are principled enough to keep that sort of thing at bay.

Ask 100 so-called independents what their principles are you get 100 answers. Ask a party realist and you get a handful at most. It was 'independents' that put Comrade Bernie a few delegates from the DNC nomination. Yet you 'wise' folks think nothing has changed? Wow.

We have a judiciary to answer your Constitutional questions

 

[MinTrut]

Wait.

I've dropped everything.

What?

It's true - the tiny and powerless left holds no sway.

As an independent, you should know this.

It's two corrupt conservative parties battling over who will line their pockets more at The People's expense.

But the Democrats DO like to pretend they have love for some things the left favors, but that's to get votes, and make sure those things NEVER happen.

Socialized medicine for instance.

Never happen, and specifically because of the Democrats.

The left has nothing to do with it?

Absolutely nothing.

Don't confuse Democrat posturing for actual legislation.

The Democrats EXIST to stop any movement left from EVER happening.

But don't believe me - just look at what the Democrats do (not what they say), including destroying the voting rights of the left in 2020.

Nazi Piglosi another prime example of a deranged conservative Democrat stuffing herself at the public trough.

She's the most Republican member of Congress!

They're just as responsible for the brainwashing as the right.

Nope.

The left has no voice and no power.

Don't confuse the Democrats (a deranged conservative party) with the left just because the Democrats like to PRETEND they support some aspects of the left's agenda.

ATM, they're more responsible.

The left is responsible for nothing; you're talking about the deranged/corrupt conservative Democrats.

Ok, I think I see what's going on here.

Yay!

You're that one who said the democrats and the left aren't the same thing, right?

Bingo.

Confusing the two is like thinking the Nazis were Jews.

 

[frigidweirdo]

I stopped being a party loyalist like 10 years ago. I've been a die hard democrat, die hard republican and libertarian. I've spewed the talking points in political arguments for my party. I've dug and researched for hours to try and prove the other side wrong. And I've ignored the things that were wrong with my party and done my best to the change the subject, when challenged. When I was a party loyalist, the "whataboutism" spewed regularly. Why? Because regardless of what party I was loyal to, there was still things wrong with my party. Things that I "overlooked." I had to overlook them, because I was a party loyalist.
Now that I'm not one, I can call out the wrongs with any party or any politician. I've called out Trump on his many lies, Pelosi on her lies and corrupt way she runs the house. McConnell, Ryan, Schumer and the rest of them. All with a clear conscious.
I've also praised Trump when he or the others, when they did or said something that I agreed with.
As a true independent, and an actual conservative, I must say, I wished you party loyalist would just STFU. Y'all sound retarded. The left going on and on and on about Trump. And the right going on and on about the stolen election. Even if it was stolen, it's done. It's over with and nothing is going to change it now.
When both sides (voters.. You people) realize that the ONLY arguments that need to be taking place, are you against your own parties, or both, because they refuse to do what's right for the vast majority of "We the people." Things like Pelosi not allowing your congressman to introduce amendments on the house floor, without first going through committee. (Which is code for lobbyist approval). Also all the spending that goes on inside these bills that are never made public. We only get a glimpse at the BS spending, when a politician wants to make a point about the other party. Things like spending for "Gender studies in Pakistan." Huge funding to corporations or special interest in a Covid relief bill or stimulus package

And please, for the love of god, when a party member exposes something corrupt within their own party, don't rag on them for making the party look bad. Praise them for trying to make the party better. (IE Tulsi Gabbard, Ron Paul, Justin Amash, Dennis Kucinich). Those people, if they ran the party, would actually bring honesty and transparency to their parties. Which would give you people a lot less to argue and fight about.

The right and the left created this retarded system. It's by design to:
1. Keep the voters arguing amongst themselves
2. Stay in power.
3. Allow those with the money to dictate legislation. Legislation that the vast majority of "we the people" would object to. (IE bank bailouts, foreign interventions, spending, and just about everything else)

Party loyalty is something that we'd expect to go on in places like Russia. But it goes on right here. People choosing their party and their talking points over their family and friends. Fact: The R & D's want their voters fighting with each other because they know that if all got along, we'd go against them.

Taken from a song I like:

1. Train the people only to consume
2. Influence adults with the news
3. Indoctrinate the children through the schools and the music and the phones and apps that they use.
4. Separate the right from the left.
5. Separate the white from the black.
6. Separate the rich from the poor. Use religion and equality to separate them more.
7. Fabricate a problem made of lies.
8. Put it on the news every night.
9. When people start to fight and divide, take control. This is called "situational design."

Like me you should probably support Proportional Representation, it'd get rid of the two party system, bring real democracy, real choice and real debate.

 

[sparky]

Like me you should probably support Proportional Representation,

so if applied to population growth, we'd seat 4350 in Congress vs 435?
if so.....that would ,imho, be more 'representative'....

it'd get rid of the two party system, bring real democracy, real choice and real debate.

Independents see a one party system , cloaked in the guise of choice. We see the political pendulum swing each election, fueled by partisans , only to result in the very same political stances

What's really needed is a strong 3rd party, which we as a country have had a rather sour go around with in the last century

List of third-party and independent performances in United States presidential elections - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

This is directly due to that 1 party system i speak of

~S~

 

[YoursTruly]

I've dropped everything.

It's true - the tiny and powerless left holds no sway.

As an independent, you should know this.

It's two corrupt conservative parties battling over who will line their pockets more at The People's expense.

But the Democrats DO like to pretend they have love for some things the left favors, but that's to get votes, and make sure those things NEVER happen.

Socialized medicine for instance.

Never happen, and specifically because of the Democrats.

Absolutely nothing.

Don't confuse Democrat posturing for actual legislation.

The Democrats EXIST to stop any movement left from EVER happening.

But don't believe me - just look at what the Democrats do (not what they say), including destroying the voting rights of the left in 2020.

Nazi Piglosi another prime example of a deranged conservative Democrat stuffing herself at the public trough.

She's the most Republican member of Congress!

Nope.

The left has no voice and no power.

Don't confuse the Democrats (a deranged conservative party) with the left just because the Democrats like to PRETEND they support some aspects of the left's agenda.

The left is responsible for nothing; you're talking about the deranged/corrupt conservative Democrats.

Yay!

Bingo.

Confusing the two is like thinking the Nazis were Jews.

Ok, your idea of the left and the democrats is like my idea of the GOP and conservatives. I get that. And I would be a lot more supportive of the idea if the Democratic party not be so populated with lefties. And visa versa. The population of the elected democrats is like 98% lefties. Which means that the lefties are 98% democrats.
Once I realized that 95% of our elected republicans were not "conservative," I had to go out of my way to put the word "actual" in front of "conservative" when I'm posting about them. Especially when discussing the republicans. Too many people still think that conservatives and republicans are the same thing.
But their voting records prove differently. Trumps record as POTUS proves differently.
So, just to be clear, I have to be a bit more detailed in my description of "conservative."
You might think about that when you're discussing the democrats and the left. Because most people, including me, think they're one in the same.

 

[YoursTruly]

Like me you should probably support Proportional Representation, it'd get rid of the two party system, bring real democracy, real choice and real debate.

We can support any kind of system all we want. Bogged down social media and political forums for years. But unless a good system that eliminates party loyalism, and proves to the millions of party loyalty how bad party loyalism is, then we're beating a dead horse.
People have to make up their own minds about supporting a party. They have to have their own "screw this" moments.
Mine:

Republicans: 6 months and three days after 9/11, W Bush says he's not concerned about the whereabouts of Osama.
Democrats: Finding out that even the democrats were lying about WMD.
LP: Some fat dude (in an LP leadership position) stripping on stage at the national convention.

In 2008, I rejoined the RNC to support an actual Conservative. (Ron Paul) But seen the GOP through the media, throw him under the bus many times from 2007 to 2012.
There was a bunch of "oh shit" moments that lead up to my "screw this" moment.
But the point is, party loyalist are going to have to find their own reasons. Becoming truly independent and an actual conservative, had little to do with political conversations I had with strangers on the internet.

 

[YoursTruly]

Ask 100 so-called independents what their principles are you get 100 answers. Ask a party realist and you get a handful at most. It was 'independents' that put Comrade Bernie a few delegates from the DNC nomination. Yet you 'wise' folks think nothing has changed? Wow.

We have a judiciary to answer your Constitutional questions

A few delegates is wasted delegates. And completely meaningless when it comes to the national convention. I'd rather have a bad nominee, than one that was nominated through corruption. Especially when Hillary was nominated. She was not only a bad POTUS candidate (IMO). But she was nominated fraudulently. (FACT)

Bernie, being a party loyalist, supported Hillary, even after the DNC rigged the nomination in her favor.

 

[Jets]

Agree with the OP. Tribalism is the problem.

 

[YoursTruly]

Agree with the OP. Tribalism is the problem.

Thank you.

You know, the more I think about this, the more I realize just how HUGE of a problem this really is. When I was a party loyalist, I could not see this. Didn't want to see it. In my mind, I was the one making the decision on what to support and what not to. I was retarded for thinking that way. In fact, I don't think I was thinking at all.
I'm so pro life that I don't even hunt. (not a vegan. I just don't like being the one to actually kill something). But when I was a democrat, I over-looked that part of being a democrat. I'm not sure why? Maybe I was just that brainwashed.
Yes, in fact that's exactly what it boils down to. I was brainwashed. SO much so that I didn't even consider my real feelings or idea's. I just followed along like a good little soldier.

 

[progressive hunter]

Our political system is broken, because it's flawed to begin with. It incentivizes and rewards the cynical, dishonest, craven, tribal behavior that we're seeing get worse and worse.

Unless and until we change the system, we keep bending over for it. This is a self-inflicted wound.

#ForwardParty

what change would you recommend??

 

[progressive hunter]

I stopped being a party loyalist like 10 years ago. I've been a die hard democrat, die hard republican and libertarian. I've spewed the talking points in political arguments for my party. I've dug and researched for hours to try and prove the other side wrong. And I've ignored the things that were wrong with my party and done my best to the change the subject, when challenged. When I was a party loyalist, the "whataboutism" spewed regularly. Why? Because regardless of what party I was loyal to, there was still things wrong with my party. Things that I "overlooked." I had to overlook them, because I was a party loyalist.
Now that I'm not one, I can call out the wrongs with any party or any politician. I've called out Trump on his many lies, Pelosi on her lies and corrupt way she runs the house. McConnell, Ryan, Schumer and the rest of them. All with a clear conscious.
I've also praised Trump when he or the others, when they did or said something that I agreed with.
As a true independent, and an actual conservative, I must say, I wished you party loyalist would just STFU. Y'all sound retarded. The left going on and on and on about Trump. And the right going on and on about the stolen election. Even if it was stolen, it's done. It's over with and nothing is going to change it now.
When both sides (voters.. You people) realize that the ONLY arguments that need to be taking place, are you against your own parties, or both, because they refuse to do what's right for the vast majority of "We the people." Things like Pelosi not allowing your congressman to introduce amendments on the house floor, without first going through committee. (Which is code for lobbyist approval). Also all the spending that goes on inside these bills that are never made public. We only get a glimpse at the BS spending, when a politician wants to make a point about the other party. Things like spending for "Gender studies in Pakistan." Huge funding to corporations or special interest in a Covid relief bill or stimulus package

And please, for the love of god, when a party member exposes something corrupt within their own party, don't rag on them for making the party look bad. Praise them for trying to make the party better. (IE Tulsi Gabbard, Ron Paul, Justin Amash, Dennis Kucinich). Those people, if they ran the party, would actually bring honesty and transparency to their parties. Which would give you people a lot less to argue and fight about.

The right and the left created this retarded system. It's by design to:
1. Keep the voters arguing amongst themselves
2. Stay in power.
3. Allow those with the money to dictate legislation. Legislation that the vast majority of "we the people" would object to. (IE bank bailouts, foreign interventions, spending, and just about everything else)

Party loyalty is something that we'd expect to go on in places like Russia. But it goes on right here. People choosing their party and their talking points over their family and friends. Fact: The R & D's want their voters fighting with each other because they know that if all got along, we'd go against them.

Taken from a song I like:

1. Train the people only to consume
2. Influence adults with the news
3. Indoctrinate the children through the schools and the music and the phones and apps that they use.
4. Separate the right from the left.
5. Separate the white from the black.
6. Separate the rich from the poor. Use religion and equality to separate them more.
7. Fabricate a problem made of lies.
8. Put it on the news every night.
9. When people start to fight and divide, take control. This is called "situational design."

the one problem I see with your view is that there is no right or left when talking about dems and repubes,, both parties are left wing authoritarians.
there was a time when repubes were right wing by american standards but that ended more than 50 yrs ago and they currently sit where dems were 20-30 yrs ago,,

the only real solution is to ban partys at the fed level and go back to a representative system where the elected represent their states/constituents not the partys,,

 

[Mac1958]

what change would you recommend??

1. Strict, short term limits
2. Publicly-funded elections
3. Ranked choice voting
4. Nonpartisan primaries
5. Independent redistricting commissions

Our Platform

The Forward Party supports ranked-choice voting, open primaries, and other reforms that will lay the foundation for a more representative multi-party democracy.

www.forwardparty.com