From an actual independent (me)

[YoursTruly]

I stopped being a party loyalist like 10 years ago. I've been a die hard democrat, die hard republican and libertarian. I've spewed the talking points in political arguments for my party. I've dug and researched for hours to try and prove the other side wrong. And I've ignored the things that were wrong with my party and done my best to the change the subject, when challenged. When I was a party loyalist, the "whataboutism" spewed regularly. Why? Because regardless of what party I was loyal to, there was still things wrong with my party. Things that I "overlooked." I had to overlook them, because I was a party loyalist.
Now that I'm not one, I can call out the wrongs with any party or any politician. I've called out Trump on his many lies, Pelosi on her lies and corrupt way she runs the house. McConnell, Ryan, Schumer and the rest of them. All with a clear conscious.
I've also praised Trump when he or the others, when they did or said something that I agreed with.
As a true independent, and an actual conservative, I must say, I wished you party loyalist would just STFU. Y'all sound retarded. The left going on and on and on about Trump. And the right going on and on about the stolen election. Even if it was stolen, it's done. It's over with and nothing is going to change it now.
When both sides (voters.. You people) realize that the ONLY arguments that need to be taking place, are you against your own parties, or both, because they refuse to do what's right for the vast majority of "We the people." Things like Pelosi not allowing your congressman to introduce amendments on the house floor, without first going through committee. (Which is code for lobbyist approval). Also all the spending that goes on inside these bills that are never made public. We only get a glimpse at the BS spending, when a politician wants to make a point about the other party. Things like spending for "Gender studies in Pakistan." Huge funding to corporations or special interest in a Covid relief bill or stimulus package

And please, for the love of god, when a party member exposes something corrupt within their own party, don't rag on them for making the party look bad. Praise them for trying to make the party better. (IE Tulsi Gabbard, Ron Paul, Justin Amash, Dennis Kucinich). Those people, if they ran the party, would actually bring honesty and transparency to their parties. Which would give you people a lot less to argue and fight about.

The right and the left created this retarded system. It's by design to:
1. Keep the voters arguing amongst themselves
2. Stay in power.
3. Allow those with the money to dictate legislation. Legislation that the vast majority of "we the people" would object to. (IE bank bailouts, foreign interventions, spending, and just about everything else)

Party loyalty is something that we'd expect to go on in places like Russia. But it goes on right here. People choosing their party and their talking points over their family and friends. Fact: The R & D's want their voters fighting with each other because they know that if all got along, we'd go against them.

Taken from a song I like:

1. Train the people only to consume
2. Influence adults with the news
3. Indoctrinate the children through the schools and the music and the phones and apps that they use.
4. Separate the right from the left.
5. Separate the white from the black.
6. Separate the rich from the poor. Use religion and equality to separate them more.
7. Fabricate a problem made of lies.
8. Put it on the news every night.
9. When people start to fight and divide, take control. This is called "situational design."

 

[Gabe Lackmann]

Good post.

I agree with almost every point raised.

 

[Mac1958]

I stopped being a party loyalist like 10 years ago. I've been a die hard democrat, die hard republican and libertarian. I've spewed the talking points in political arguments for my party. I've dug and researched for hours to try and prove the other side wrong. And I've ignored the things that were wrong with my party and done my best to the change the subject, when challenged. When I was a party loyalist, the "whataboutism" spewed regularly. Why? Because regardless of what party I was loyal to, there was still things wrong with my party. Things that I "overlooked." I had to overlook them, because I was a party loyalist.
Now that I'm not one, I can call out the wrongs with any party or any politician. I've called out Trump on his many lies, Pelosi on her lies and corrupt way she runs the house. McConnell, Ryan, Schumer and the rest of them. All with a clear conscious.
I've also praised Trump when he or the others, when they did or said something that I agreed with.
As a true independent, and an actual conservative, I must say, I wished you party loyalist would just STFU. Y'all sound retarded. The left going on and on and on about Trump. And the right going on and on about the stolen election. Even if it was stolen, it's done. It's over with and nothing is going to change it now.
When both sides (voters.. You people) realize that the ONLY arguments that need to be taking place, are you against your own parties, or both, because they refuse to do what's right for the vast majority of "We the people." Things like Pelosi not allowing your congressman to introduce amendments on the house floor, without first going through committee. (Which is code for lobbyist approval). Also all the spending that goes on inside these bills that are never made public. We only get a glimpse at the BS spending, when a politician wants to make a point about the other party. Things like spending for "Gender studies in Pakistan." Huge funding to corporations or special interest in a Covid relief bill or stimulus package

And please, for the love of god, when a party member exposes something corrupt within their own party, don't rag on them for making the party look bad. Praise them for trying to make the party better. (IE Tulsi Gabbard, Ron Paul, Justin Amash, Dennis Kucinich). Those people, if they ran the party, would actually bring honesty and transparency to their parties. Which would give you people a lot less to argue and fight about.

The right and the left created this retarded system. It's by design to:
1. Keep the voters arguing amongst themselves
2. Stay in power.
3. Allow those with the money to dictate legislation. Legislation that the vast majority of "we the people" would object to. (IE bank bailouts, foreign interventions, spending, and just about everything else)

Party loyalty is something that we'd expect to go on in places like Russia. But it goes on right here. People choosing their party and their talking points over their family and friends. Fact: The R & D's want their voters fighting with each other because they know that if all got along, we'd go against them.

Taken from a song I like:

1. Train the people only to consume
2. Influence adults with the news
3. Indoctrinate the children through the schools and the music and the phones and apps that they use.
4. Separate the right from the left.
5. Separate the white from the black.
6. Separate the rich from the poor. Use religion and equality to separate them more.
7. Fabricate a problem made of lies.
8. Put it on the news every night.
9. When people start to fight and divide, take control. This is called "situational design."

Our political system is broken, because it's flawed to begin with. It incentivizes and rewards the cynical, dishonest, craven, tribal behavior that we're seeing get worse and worse.

Unless and until we change the system, we keep bending over for it. This is a self-inflicted wound.

#ForwardParty

 

[sparky]

It's good to rise above it all, and look back down on it objectively

~S~

 

[YoursTruly]

Breaking free from all the parties was like getting a divorce from a bad marriage. I could finally agree or disagree what what the hell I wanted, instead of what the parties "status quo" says.

The top two parties will never allow a decent candidate or a third party to ever get enough support that it actually has a chance of winning. We all should remember how the R & D's took over the debates after Ross Perot.
Now, when someone who actually has the majority of Americans in mind (Justin Amash/Tulsi Gabbard), BOTH parties come together, through the media, to squash any chance they have of gaining any traction.
Party loyalist will follow along like good loyalist do. As if they're going to be rewarded by their party's leadership for helping out.

I used to expect retarded things like that. Would show up at the local party headquarters and brag about how I proved someone on the other side wrong. Argue with those on the other side in forums like this, constantly. I was retarded.
Forums like this are always two sided. And anyone in one party that says anything against their own party, is eaten alive by their party members.

And the end result is that nothing changed. No one holds their party accountable. After the election was over, regardless of who takes the majority, both parties still run (and ruin) the country. And we still argue.

 

[initforme]

The OP truly is an american patriot.

 

[armadei]

Your post reminded me of this very accurate video:

 

[Burgermeister]

I stopped being a party loyalist like 10 years ago. I've been a die hard democrat, die hard republican and libertarian. I've spewed the talking points in political arguments for my party. I've dug and researched for hours to try and prove the other side wrong. And I've ignored the things that were wrong with my party and done my best to the change the subject, when challenged. When I was a party loyalist, the "whataboutism" spewed regularly. Why? Because regardless of what party I was loyal to, there was still things wrong with my party. Things that I "overlooked." I had to overlook them, because I was a party loyalist.
Now that I'm not one, I can call out the wrongs with any party or any politician. I've called out Trump on his many lies, Pelosi on her lies and corrupt way she runs the house. McConnell, Ryan, Schumer and the rest of them. All with a clear conscious.
I've also praised Trump when he or the others, when they did or said something that I agreed with.
As a true independent, and an actual conservative, I must say, I wished you party loyalist would just STFU. Y'all sound retarded. The left going on and on and on about Trump. And the right going on and on about the stolen election. Even if it was stolen, it's done. It's over with and nothing is going to change it now.
When both sides (voters.. You people) realize that the ONLY arguments that need to be taking place, are you against your own parties, or both, because they refuse to do what's right for the vast majority of "We the people." Things like Pelosi not allowing your congressman to introduce amendments on the house floor, without first going through committee. (Which is code for lobbyist approval). Also all the spending that goes on inside these bills that are never made public. We only get a glimpse at the BS spending, when a politician wants to make a point about the other party. Things like spending for "Gender studies in Pakistan." Huge funding to corporations or special interest in a Covid relief bill or stimulus package

And please, for the love of god, when a party member exposes something corrupt within their own party, don't rag on them for making the party look bad. Praise them for trying to make the party better. (IE Tulsi Gabbard, Ron Paul, Justin Amash, Dennis Kucinich). Those people, if they ran the party, would actually bring honesty and transparency to their parties. Which would give you people a lot less to argue and fight about.

The right and the left created this retarded system. It's by design to:
1. Keep the voters arguing amongst themselves
2. Stay in power.
3. Allow those with the money to dictate legislation. Legislation that the vast majority of "we the people" would object to. (IE bank bailouts, foreign interventions, spending, and just about everything else)

Party loyalty is something that we'd expect to go on in places like Russia. But it goes on right here. People choosing their party and their talking points over their family and friends. Fact: The R & D's want their voters fighting with each other because they know that if all got along, we'd go against them.

Taken from a song I like:

1. Train the people only to consume
2. Influence adults with the news
3. Indoctrinate the children through the schools and the music and the phones and apps that they use.
4. Separate the right from the left.
5. Separate the white from the black.
6. Separate the rich from the poor. Use religion and equality to separate them more.
7. Fabricate a problem made of lies.
8. Put it on the news every night.
9. When people start to fight and divide, take control. This is called "situational design."

Think a lot of yourself, don't you? Few things -

If the election was stolen, we should just move on? What kind of garbage is that? No patriot would just move on from that.

You want to tell people what arguments are valid to have? That's silly.

What's this canard about rampant ragging on people exposing corruption?

Lastly, you claim to be a true conservative. How can you have any first principles if you've been both a die-hard Democrat and die-hard Republican?

You seem a bit like a newly recovering addict evangelizing your newfound independence. It's a bit much.

 

[Rogue AI]

The so-called independents are just as responsible for the mess as any party loyalist, more so with the me,me,me, mentality of placing instant gratification over national direction.

 

[initforme]

Independents have zero responsibility for any mess. Your way is not the only way. You only think that.

 

[AzogtheDefiler]

Our political system is broken, because it's flawed to begin with. It incentivizes and rewards the cynical, dishonest, craven, tribal behavior that we're seeing get worse and worse.

Unless and until we change the system, we keep bending over for it. This is a self-inflicted wound.

#ForwardParty

Our system is broken? Lemmings like you voted for it and support it.

 

[YoursTruly]

Think a lot of yourself, don't you? Few things -

I think I've learned a lot by paying attention to the flaws in all party's. And the effect it has on a lot of voters. I've learned how both party's used that type of division to continue running the country opposite of what and how "we the people" need to it to be ran.
It's just common sense and thinking for ones self.

If the election was stolen, we should just move on? What kind of garbage is that? No patriot would just move on from that.

Ok, well dwell on it, and look EXACTLY like the democrat party loyalist that are going on and on and on about Jan 6th.

You want to tell people what arguments are valid to have? That's silly.

No. Just realize where the arguments stem from. Example: Republican voters can argue about abortion for the end of eternity. But at the end of the day, the GOP has had the majority many MANY times since abortion became legal. And every time people like Ron Paul introduced the "Sanctity of Life" bill, during GOP majorities, it was shot down by party party and house leaders.
So you're stuck arguing with democrats about how bad abortion is (or what ever topic), when you're own party is the reason why you're still arguing.

What's this canard about rampant ragging on people exposing corruption?

Google is your friend. But I'll give you some examples: Justin Amash exposed how Republicans, during a GOP majority in the House, didn't really want to "balance the budget." He offered budget proposals that would actually balance the budget. He was then kicked off the House Budget committee for trying to actually balance the budget by then House Speaker, John Boehner. And that GOP majority went on to spend more than the last democrat majority.

Does that explain it? Or should I site more examples. Because I have a bunch.

Lastly, you claim to be a true conservative. How can you have any first principles if you've been both a die-hard Democrat and die-hard Republican?

Getting away from the parties allows one to think for themselves. To determine what they truly think and feel. Instead of just following along with what the party demands.
Example: I'm sure there's a LOT of democrats who would object to men (pretending to be women) competing against real women. But because the party dictates that all democrats support transgenders, then they support the party leadership and men competing against women.

You seem a bit like a newly recovering addict evangelizing your newfound independence. It's a bit much.

Not newly. I've been independent now for about 10 years. And yes, it is sort of like a recovering addict. It even comes with withdrawals. As you can tell my a few of my posts, I still slip a little and argue with party loyalist over issues that even the supposed conservative party (GOP) has done nothing about.

 

[sparky]

No one holds their party accountable

The OP truly is an american patriot.

You seem a bit like a newly recovering addict

placing instant gratification over national direction.

Independents have zero responsibility for any mess

Our system is broken?

interesting responses toward defining 'independent', but i'm afraid you'll need to try a tad harder.......

~S~

 

[YoursTruly]

The so-called independents are just as responsible for the mess as any party loyalist, more so with the me,me,me, mentality of placing instant gratification over national direction.

The minor details of our political system are there to see. You just have to look for them. And be open minded when you see them. A party loyalist isn't going to look for those details, because it'll shine a bad light on their party.
Us who are truly independent, can't do anything about the party loyalist, until our numbers are big enough to do so. And even then, we still have to fight the party's. The party's have the media to push their agenda's. We don't.

 

[Lesh]

I stopped being a party loyalist like 10 years ago. I've been a die hard democrat, die hard republican and libertarian. I've spewed the talking points in political arguments for my party. I've dug and researched for hours to try and prove the other side wrong. And I've ignored the things that were wrong with my party and done my best to the change the subject, when challenged. When I was a party loyalist, the "whataboutism" spewed regularly. Why? Because regardless of what party I was loyal to, there was still things wrong with my party. Things that I "overlooked." I had to overlook them, because I was a party loyalist.
Now that I'm not one, I can call out the wrongs with any party or any politician. I've called out Trump on his many lies, Pelosi on her lies and corrupt way she runs the house. McConnell, Ryan, Schumer and the rest of them. All with a clear conscious.
I've also praised Trump when he or the others, when they did or said something that I agreed with.
As a true independent, and an actual conservative, I must say, I wished you party loyalist would just STFU. Y'all sound retarded. The left going on and on and on about Trump. And the right going on and on about the stolen election. Even if it was stolen, it's done. It's over with and nothing is going to change it now.
When both sides (voters.. You people) realize that the ONLY arguments that need to be taking place, are you against your own parties, or both, because they refuse to do what's right for the vast majority of "We the people." Things like Pelosi not allowing your congressman to introduce amendments on the house floor, without first going through committee. (Which is code for lobbyist approval). Also all the spending that goes on inside these bills that are never made public. We only get a glimpse at the BS spending, when a politician wants to make a point about the other party. Things like spending for "Gender studies in Pakistan." Huge funding to corporations or special interest in a Covid relief bill or stimulus package

And please, for the love of god, when a party member exposes something corrupt within their own party, don't rag on them for making the party look bad. Praise them for trying to make the party better. (IE Tulsi Gabbard, Ron Paul, Justin Amash, Dennis Kucinich). Those people, if they ran the party, would actually bring honesty and transparency to their parties. Which would give you people a lot less to argue and fight about.

The right and the left created this retarded system. It's by design to:
1. Keep the voters arguing amongst themselves
2. Stay in power.
3. Allow those with the money to dictate legislation. Legislation that the vast majority of "we the people" would object to. (IE bank bailouts, foreign interventions, spending, and just about everything else)

Party loyalty is something that we'd expect to go on in places like Russia. But it goes on right here. People choosing their party and their talking points over their family and friends. Fact: The R & D's want their voters fighting with each other because they know that if all got along, we'd go against them.

Taken from a song I like:

1. Train the people only to consume
2. Influence adults with the news
3. Indoctrinate the children through the schools and the music and the phones and apps that they use.
4. Separate the right from the left.
5. Separate the white from the black.
6. Separate the rich from the poor. Use religion and equality to separate them more.
7. Fabricate a problem made of lies.
8. Put it on the news every night.
9. When people start to fight and divide, take control. This is called "situational design."

You sound confused

 

[YoursTruly]

Your post reminded me of this very accurate video:

The announcer: You guys aren't even making any sense. I've said that 1,000 times. Thanks for posting this.

 

[YoursTruly]

You sound confused

I'm actually more clear in my thinking now, than I ever was. There's just more to think about, now that I'm doing my own thinking.

 

[initforme]

Any "party" that believes I should see things their way has nothing to offer to influence me to vote for them.

 

[initforme]

It's a herd mentality. They don't want you to call out all their countless flaws.

 

[Rogue AI]

The minor details of our political system are there to see. You just have to look for them. And be open minded when you see them. A party loyalist isn't going to look for those details, because it'll shine a bad light on their party.
Us who are truly independent, can't do anything about the party loyalist, until our numbers are big enough to do so. And even then, we still have to fight the party's. The party's have the media to push their agenda's. We don't.

During the Cold War perhaps, times have changed and there are two well defined sides. Those who support the Constitution and those who don't.

Being so-called independents is little more than a sham to remove yourselves from responsibility. The reason independents usually fail is because luckily there are still enough people who aren't so stupid as to cede the country to a bunch of self-important yahoos with no underlying principles whose chief attribute is their disconnected self interests.