Free will and God's will

[Bullypulpit]

Free will...God's will...I find there to be an interesting tension between these two in Christianity, especially in today's world.

On one hand we have the assertion of an omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent deity who has written down and determined all that will happen to us throughout our lives. Belief in this deity is not optional.This kind of rigid determinism is somewhat archaic and was predominant before the reformation.

On the other hand, we have the concept of free will. An omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent deity has cast the proverbial cosmic dice, and is standing back...watching, to see how they fall. Will we choose to to Believe...? Or not?

For those who accept the Bible as the inerrant, infallible and absolute word of God, to hold that we have free will is a contradiction if not a cop-out. For if we fail to obey God's, or any other, law we cannot truly be held responsible for that failure unless we truly are free agents.

 

[liberalogic]

Free will...God's will...I find there to be an interesting tension between these two in Christianity, especially in today's world.

On one hand we have the assertion of an omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent deity who has written down and determined all that will happen to us throughout our lives. Belief in this deity is not optional.This kind of rigid determinism is somewhat archaic and was predominant before the reformation.

On the other hand, we have the concept of free will. An omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent deity has cast the proverbial cosmic dice, and is standing back...watching, to see how they fall. Will we choose to to Believe...? Or not?

For those who accept the Bible as the inerrant, infallible and absolute word of God, to hold that we have free will is a contradiction if not a cop-out. For if we fail to obey God's, or any other, law we cannot truly be held responsible for that failure unless we truly are free agents.

I often hear Christians say that God has a plan for all of us. When Christians die, they often chalk it up to this "plan." How can we have free will if God has a plan for all of us? And if we do have free will, then what are the limitations of God's interference in world affairs (from wars to natural disasters) that affect this free will?

 

[RetiredGySgt]

I often hear Christians say that God has a plan for all of us. When Christians die, they often chalk it up to this "plan." How can we have free will if God has a plan for all of us? And if we do have free will, then what are the limitations of God's interference in world affairs (from wars to natural disasters) that affect this free will?

Free will means we have the ability to chose, We can believe or not believe in God, or anything else. We can chose to believe in God and still not do all the things he asks of us. We can chose to not believe at all, we can chose to believe and try to meet all the demands that we think God puts on us.

There is no faith without free will. If God wanted us to worship him with no free will then it would be slavery.

My personal belief is that God put us here to learn and grow. That we lived in God's presence before being sent here, but that without free will we could not learn nor grow nor become more of anything. There is no absolute proof God exists because if there were, there would be NO free will and no faith required. It is left to us to CHOSE to believe. And to act on that belief.

Organized religion makes some idiotic claims. In the end it is a personal matter, between you and your belief. I personally do not believe that God can both be forgiving and vengeful or spiteful. Either he demands absolute obeidence ( which throws out free will) or he allows free will and our faith in him ( that faith does not require any specific organized religion, in my opinion). A belief in a single God, further the acceptance of Jesus to atone for our sins and allow for forgiveness ( though I do not rule out that Jews and Muslims will be accepted even though they do not believe in Jesus as the Son of God)

 

[Bullypulpit]

Free will means we have the ability to chose, We can believe or not believe in God, or anything else. We can chose to believe in God and still not do all the things he asks of us. We can chose to not believe at all, we can chose to believe and try to meet all the demands that we think God puts on us.

There is no faith without free will. If God wanted us to worship him with no free will then it would be slavery.

My personal belief is that God put us here to learn and grow. That we lived in God's presence before being sent here, but that without free will we could not learn nor grow nor become more of anything. There is no absolute proof God exists because if there were, there would be NO free will and no faith required. It is left to us to CHOSE to believe. And to act on that belief.

Organized religion makes some idiotic claims. In the end it is a personal matter, between you and your belief. I personally do not believe that God can both be forgiving and vengeful or spiteful. Either he demands absolute obeidence ( which throws out free will) or he allows free will and our faith in him ( that faith does not require any specific organized religion, in my opinion). A belief in a single God, further the acceptance of Jesus to atone for our sins and allow for forgiveness ( though I do not rule out that Jews and Muslims will be accepted even though they do not believe in Jesus as the Son of God)

By the very definition of "God", all that we have done, are doing and will do, is known by this omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent and eternal entity. Thus "free-will" is but an illusion. And that is the problem with deterministic philosophies...their inherent contradictions defeat their premises.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

By the very definition of "God", all that we have done, are doing and will do, is known by this omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent and eternal entity. Thus "free-will" is but an illusion. And that is the problem with deterministic philosophies...their inherent contradictions defeat their premises.

Simply not true.

 

[Toro]

I think its awfully narcissistic to think that God has a plan for me.

 

[Bullypulpit]

Simply not true.

Firstly, what part? Secondly, what do you offer in evidence to support your assertion?

 

[onedomino]

I think its awfully narcissistic to think that God has a plan for me.

God may have set this Universe in motion. No one knows; especially those that claim they do. They may have Faith, but that is all they have. There is no deterministic "plan." Biochemical evolution points to no particular objective. Not even the motion of subatomic particles is deterministic: http://zebu.uoregon.edu/~imamura/208/jan27/hup.html. Statistically, Free Will probably exisits.

 

[actsnoblemartin]

Intersting question, one i have pondered, do we have free will, or does god plan it all out for us?. I hope we have a christian scholar who can explain the difference.

Free will...God's will...I find there to be an interesting tension between these two in Christianity, especially in today's world.

On one hand we have the assertion of an omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent deity who has written down and determined all that will happen to us throughout our lives. Belief in this deity is not optional.This kind of rigid determinism is somewhat archaic and was predominant before the reformation.

On the other hand, we have the concept of free will. An omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent deity has cast the proverbial cosmic dice, and is standing back...watching, to see how they fall. Will we choose to to Believe...? Or not?

For those who accept the Bible as the inerrant, infallible and absolute word of God, to hold that we have free will is a contradiction if not a cop-out. For if we fail to obey God's, or any other, law we cannot truly be held responsible for that failure unless we truly are free agents.

 

[actsnoblemartin]

You have some good points, I enjoy reading your point of view.

Free will...God's will...I find there to be an interesting tension between these two in Christianity, especially in today's world.

On one hand we have the assertion of an omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent deity who has written down and determined all that will happen to us throughout our lives. Belief in this deity is not optional.This kind of rigid determinism is somewhat archaic and was predominant before the reformation.

On the other hand, we have the concept of free will. An omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent deity has cast the proverbial cosmic dice, and is standing back...watching, to see how they fall. Will we choose to to Believe...? Or not?

For those who accept the Bible as the inerrant, infallible and absolute word of God, to hold that we have free will is a contradiction if not a cop-out. For if we fail to obey God's, or any other, law we cannot truly be held responsible for that failure unless we truly are free agents.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

God does NOT plan out nor influence directly any mortals actions. That is a misunderstanding of what is being said. The Bible is clear that man must CHOSE to believe and must CHOSE to act according to the dictates of the word of God, in deeds and action, in thoughts and feelings.

God has a plan BUT each person must act to join and carry out that plan for themselves. Even in the Garden of Eden Adam and Eve had free will. God told them NOT to eat of the tree, he did not force them to not eat. nor did he force them to eat of it.

Only Jesus was with out sin. All other mortals are born into sin and must chose to cleanse themselves and to actively work to not sin ( and they will fail, but can be forgiven depending on their actions and thoughts)

God does not meddle in man's affairs directly. Nothing is preordained for any mortal. Except that they will be born and they will die. The only action that is Preordained is that one day Jesus will return and will cleanse the world of the taint of Satan and his followers. All are then raised again to be judged and those found worthy will either reside in Heaven with God or reside on earth with Jesus. Those not found worthy shall be forever dead.

 

[Bullypulpit]

God does NOT plan out nor influence directly any mortals actions. That is a misunderstanding of what is being said. The Bible is clear that man must CHOSE to believe and must CHOSE to act according to the dictates of the word of God, in deeds and action, in thoughts and feelings.

God has a plan BUT each person must act to join and carry out that plan for themselves. Even in the Garden of Eden Adam and Eve had free will. God told them NOT to eat of the tree, he did not force them to not eat. nor did he force them to eat of it.

Only Jesus was with out sin. All other mortals are born into sin and must chose to cleanse themselves and to actively work to not sin ( and they will fail, but can be forgiven depending on their actions and thoughts)

God does not meddle in man's affairs directly. Nothing is preordained for any mortal. Except that they will be born and they will die. The only action that is Preordained is that one day Jesus will return and will cleanse the world of the taint of Satan and his followers. All are then raised again to be judged and those found worthy will either reside in Heaven with God or reside on earth with Jesus. Those not found worthy shall be forever dead.

And how do you, or anyone else, know this? What means did the writers of the Bible use to ascertain this? If God possesses those qualities...omniscience, omnipotence, omnipresence and eternalism, then such a being would be unavailable to human experience.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

And how do you, or anyone else, know this? What means did the writers of the Bible use to ascertain this? If God possesses those qualities...omniscience, omnipotence, omnipresence and eternalism, then such a being would be unavailable to human experience.

The Bible does NOT say God has all those powers to begin with. And even if he does that does NOT equate to what you claim. How do I know it? Its called faith, perhaps you should try some. How do you know otherwise? And besides if God doesn't exist whats the problem?

And I never claimed he has avoided us. He created us, and he has guided us. Your claim that somehow these powers would ensure we would have absolute proof of his existance are simply not true, they are nothing more than your opinion, and one not borne out by history.

God has in the past intervened directly, but he does not do that anymore. And God does intervene indirectly. The Bible is indirect. Man wrote it not God, even if inspired by God. There was the destruction of Sodom and Gamorra and the flood.

Your argument we can not have freewill is simply wrong. There would be no need for faith, we would NOT be having this conversation, if we did not have free will. There would not be a plethoria of religions in the world all with differing versions of what God or Gods exists and what their version of a God or Gods teach.

God does reach out to Prophets , as he did in the past and does now. But again no one sees this happen, no real evidence of it is available, it becomes a matter of faith to believe it, which maintains free will.

 

[Bullypulpit]

The Bible does NOT say God has all those powers to begin with. And even if he does that does NOT equate to what you claim. How do I know it? Its called faith, perhaps you should try some. How do you know otherwise? And besides if God doesn't exist whats the problem?

You might want to read your Bible a little more closely. Let me offer this...

<blockquote>God Is Changeless. Progress and change may characterize some of His works, but God Himself remains unchanged (Heb 1:12). He does not change; otherwise, He would not be perfect. Thus, what we know of God can be known with certainty. He is not different from one time to another.

God Is All Powerful. God's power is unlimited. He can do anything that is not inconsistent with His nature, character, and purpose (Gen 17:1; 18:14). The only limitations on God's power are imposed by Himself (Gen 18:25). "Impossible" is not in God's vocabulary. God creates and sustains all things; yet He never grows weary (Isa 40:27-31).

God Is All Knowing. God possesses all knowledge (Job 38:39; Rom 11:33-36). Because God is everywhere at one and the same time, He knows everything simultaneously. That God has the power to know the thoughts and motives of every heart is evident from many Scripture passages, notably Job 37:16; Ps 147:5, and Heb 3:13.

God Is Everywhere. God is not confined to any part of the universe but is present in all His power at every point in space and every moment in time (Ps 139:7-12). Thus, God does not belong to any one nation or generation. He is the God of all the earth (Gen 18:25).

God Is Eternal. Eternity refers to God's relation to time. Past, present, and future are known equally to Him (2 Peter 3:8; Rev 1:8). Time is like a parade that man sees only a segment at a time. But God sees time in its entirety. The second group of attributes is called moral attributes. These refer to God's character, His essential nature. - <a href=http://www.scripturessay.com/article.php?cat=god&id=510>Characteristics of God</a></blockquote>

How do I know otherwise? The evidence of my senses is sufficient. As for the problem, well, that should be obvious. For every believer in a given religion or schism of a given religion, there is some one who believes the other guy is wrong and is willing to kill him to prove he's wrong.

And I never claimed he has avoided us. He created us, and he has guided us. Your claim that somehow these powers would ensure we would have absolute proof of his existance are simply not true, they are nothing more than your opinion, and one not borne out by history.

I never claimed the qualities attributed to God would ensure proof of his (hers/its) existence. As for history bearing out the existence of such a being, please provide links to support that assertion.

God has in the past intervened directly, but he does not do that anymore. And God does intervene indirectly. The Bible is indirect. Man wrote it not God, even if inspired by God. There was the destruction of Sodom and Gamorra and the flood.

There is, at present, no historical evidence to support that Sodom and Gomorrah ever existed. As for the Great Flood, that tale was lifted almost word for word from the Epic of Gilgamesh, the earliest extant versions of which date back to around 2150 BCE. So much for that evidence.

Your argument we can not have freewill is simply wrong. There would be no need for faith, we would NOT be having this conversation, if we did not have free will. There would not be a plethoria of religions in the world all with differing versions of what God or Gods exists and what their version of a God or Gods teach.

The argument of many religions militates more against the existence of a unitary God that it does for it. Even the faith of the early Israelites was not mono-theistic, but polytheistic.

God does reach out to Prophets , as he did in the past and does now. But again no one sees this happen, no real evidence of it is available, it becomes a matter of faith to believe it, which maintains free will.

These so-called prophets we see today are little more than charismatic figures more interested in their own self-aggrandizement than in their religions. Their followings are little more than cults of personality.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

You might want to read your Bible a little more closely. Let me offer this...

<blockquote>God Is Changeless. Progress and change may characterize some of His works, but God Himself remains unchanged (Heb 1:12). He does not change; otherwise, He would not be perfect. Thus, what we know of God can be known with certainty. He is not different from one time to another.

God Is All Powerful. God's power is unlimited. He can do anything that is not inconsistent with His nature, character, and purpose (Gen 17:1; 18:14). The only limitations on God's power are imposed by Himself (Gen 18:25). "Impossible" is not in God's vocabulary. God creates and sustains all things; yet He never grows weary (Isa 40:27-31).

God Is All Knowing. God possesses all knowledge (Job 38:39; Rom 11:33-36). Because God is everywhere at one and the same time, He knows everything simultaneously. That God has the power to know the thoughts and motives of every heart is evident from many Scripture passages, notably Job 37:16; Ps 147:5, and Heb 3:13.

God Is Everywhere. God is not confined to any part of the universe but is present in all His power at every point in space and every moment in time (Ps 139:7-12). Thus, God does not belong to any one nation or generation. He is the God of all the earth (Gen 18:25).

God Is Eternal. Eternity refers to God's relation to time. Past, present, and future are known equally to Him (2 Peter 3:8; Rev 1:8). Time is like a parade that man sees only a segment at a time. But God sees time in its entirety. The second group of attributes is called moral attributes. These refer to God's character, His essential nature. - <a href=http://www.scripturessay.com/article.php?cat=god&id=510>Characteristics of God</a></blockquote>

How do I know otherwise? The evidence of my senses is sufficient. As for the problem, well, that should be obvious. For every believer in a given religion or schism of a given religion, there is some one who believes the other guy is wrong and is willing to kill him to prove he's wrong.



I never claimed the qualities attributed to God would ensure proof of his (hers/its) existence. As for history bearing out the existence of such a being, please provide links to support that assertion.



There is, at present, no historical evidence to support that Sodom and Gomorrah ever existed. As for the Great Flood, that tale was lifted almost word for word from the Epic of Gilgamesh, the earliest extant versions of which date back to around 2150 BCE. So much for that evidence.



The argument of many religions militates more against the existence of a unitary God that it does for it. Even the faith of the early Israelites was not mono-theistic, but polytheistic.



These so-called prophets we see today are little more than charismatic figures more interested in their own self-aggrandizement than in their religions. Their followings are little more than cults of personality.

Your argument was that we could not have freewill, your argument has failed miserably, so much so you are now changing what your argument was. Adam and Eve prove freewill. Sin proves freewill, multiple religions proves freewill. A book that tries to tell us how to live proves freewill. Faith proves freewill. A llack of historical proof proves freewill.

Just admit your wrong.

 

[Bullypulpit]

Your argument was that we could not have freewill, your argument has failed miserably, so much so you are now changing what your argument was. Adam and Eve prove freewill. Sin proves freewill, multiple religions proves freewill. A book that tries to tell us how to live proves freewill. Faith proves freewill. A llack of historical proof proves freewill.

Just admit your wrong.

I never suggested that we do not have free will. Only that free will was incompatible with the existence of an omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent and eternal supreme being guiding our existence. Is is a deterministic stance which does not comport with free will.

That free will exists militates against the existence of a supreme being who guides our lives.

 

[Truthmatters]

I believe man invented god to fill the gaps about what he didtn know about his world.

This is why I dont belive in the exsistance of a God.

I believe the more we learn about our enviroment the less we need to believe in a higher being.

Some people will always believe in God for the comfort of doing so, this is absolutely fine with me and these people deserve as much respect for their beliefs as anyone.

I just hope that someday we reach a point where my beliefs are not attacked every time I express them.

Oh Well maybe someday.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

I never suggested that we do not have free will. Only that free will was incompatible with the existence of an omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent and eternal supreme being guiding our existence. Is is a deterministic stance which does not comport with free will.

That free will exists militates against the existence of a supreme being who guides our lives.

Once again that is false. He does NOT guide our lives. He provides guidelines but takes no overt or direct action to make us do anything. We must chose to follow, we must chose to believe, we have complete freewill.

And in fact being all the things you point out he is, ensures that he CAN allow freewill by HIS choice not to intervene directly.

When someone says " God has a plan for us all" they do NOT mean he ensures we follow the plan, they do not mean we have no chose but to follow the plan. They mean that God has provided information and indirect guidance and we are free to follow it or not follow it. We are free to follow part of it, all of it or none of it. God wants us to follow the plan but he will not take any direct action to force us to do so. We must CHOSE our path, we CHOSE what we believe and what we do.

There is no contradiction at all with the powers he may have and his decision to not force us to follow him, believe in him or worship him.

 

[mattskramer]

Free will or god&#8217;s will. I know that this is part of an old debate and goes to the debate over proof of god&#8217;s existence or inexistence but I have yet to really understand if there is an all powerful, all good and just god, how this could exist. Did the child commit some egregious sin that warrants such punishment? Why didn&#8217;t someone just shoot the poor thing and get it over with?

http://www.flatrock.org.nz/topics/odds_and_oddities/ultimate_in_unfair.htm

Let's cut the bull and get real, people. Was this god's will or the child's choice?

 

[RetiredGySgt]

Free will or god’s will. I know that this is part of an old debate and goes to the debate over proof of god’s existence or inexistence but I have yet to really understand if there is an all powerful, all good and just god, how this could exist. Did the child commit some egregious sin that warrants such punishment? Why didn’t someone just shoot the poor thing and get it over with?

http://www.flatrock.org.nz/topics/odds_and_oddities/ultimate_in_unfair.htm

Let's cut the bull and get real, people. Was this god's will or the child's choice?

God does not intervene, period.