Founding Fathers: We Are Not a Christian Nation

[AVG-JOE]

Note to mods: If this thread is moved - please leave a trail.

As of post # 2 at least, I don't see any reason to move it.

Carry on.
​

 

[AVG-JOE]

Words on paper do not define a nation. Saying that America was not founded as a Christian nation is like saying America was a land where "all men were created equal", while they owned slaves.

Mark

The best thing about the US Constitution is its vision.

Liberal use of the concept of "all" in favor of "white, male, Christian property owners" was just the beginning of the ideals that the founders asked their spawn to try and live up to.

The Constitution isn't dead art, it's a goal. And anyone who thinks we're there is a fool.


________________

There was much discussion about slavery at the time but those who lobbied for private economic interests had overly loud voices.

Sound familiar?
​

Thank goodness the compromise included the exclusion of language specifically naming white, male, Christian property owners as the sole beneficiaries of constitutional protections.

`​

 

[AVG-JOE]

Yo, read and weep!
Early colonial laws and constitutions such as the Mayflower Compact, the Fundamental Orders of Connecticut, and Massachusetts Body of Libertiesare filled with such language—and in some cases, they incorporate biblical texts wholesale. Perhaps more surprisingly, tolerant, Quaker Pennsylvania was more similar to Puritan New England than many realize. The Charter of Liberties and Frame of Government of the Province of Pennsylvania (1681) begins by making it clear that God has ordained government, and it even quotes Romans 13 to this effect. Article 38 of the document lists “offenses against God” that may be punished by the magistrate, including:

swearing, cursing, lying, profane talking, drunkenness, drinking of healths, obscene words, incest, sodomy…stage-plays, cards, dice, May-games, gamesters, masques, revels, bull-baiting, cock-fighting, bear-baiting, and the like, which excite the people to rudeness, cruelty, looseness, and irreligion.

An extensive survey of early colonial constitutions and laws reveals many similar provisions. As well, at least nine of the 13 colonies had established churches, and all required officeholders to be Christians—or, in some cases, Protestants. Quaker Pennsylvania, for instance, expected officeholders to be “such as possess faith in Jesus Christ.”

"GTP"

This is the "Hate GOD" group in America trying to push out religion!!! They will try anything!!! Ban this and Ban that!!!

Did religious groups come to the 'New World' with ideas of establishing their own version of Sharia Law?

Undoubtedly.
​

Fortunately, by the time they gathered to form an actual nation, there was enough variety to make a Christian Caliphate impossible to agree on, so a certain amount of freedom with regards to religion was adopted instead.

`​

 

[initforme]

If we are a nation founded on Christianity, we are not practicing what we preach then. Christ helped and preached about helping the poor and downtrodden, not the rich and powerful.

 

[AVG-JOE]

Good point.

Even if it was "tolerance on paper / Jesus in our hearts" that drove this nation when it was founded, money and control of resources is what chose the direction of travel.

The evidence does not point to The United States, on paper or in practice, as being a 'Christian Nation'.

No jury in the world could POSSIBLY convict us, in present or in history.

 

[Iceweasel]

Good point.

Even if it was "tolerance on paper / Jesus in our hearts" that drove this nation when it was founded, money and control of resources is what chose the direction of travel.

The evidence does not point to The United States, on paper or in practice, as being a 'Christian Nation'.

No jury in the world could POSSIBLY convict us, in present or in history.

Culturally we were and still are. John Adams' comments were written in the Treaty of Tripoli with the Barbary pirates, Muslims. And did not want to get into a religious war or make it a religious issue. What he was telling them is that the US wasn't a theocracy.


Was America Founded As A Christian Nation - Forbes
The most damning evidence of a non-Christian past is a humiliating 1797 treaty with the Barbary Pirates. President Adams sought to stem unremitting Muslim raids against Mediterranean shipping and protect American sailors from African slavery. This obscure treaty submitted, “The Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion.”

But diplomacy in North Africa through studied weakness proved as futile then as today, so Marines took action inspiring the snippet, “… to the shores of Tripoli.” By the 1800s, replete with a burgeoning navy, subsequent treaties contained no such obsequious bows to Islam. Still, the secularists rejoice.

As historian John Fea notes, “If the Treaty of Tripoli is correct, and the United States was not ‘founded on the Christian religion,’ then someone forgot to tell the American people… The idea that the United States is a ‘Christian nation,’ has always been central to American identity.” But debate rages over whether the Founders were Deists and why the Constitution bears no mention of God.

 

[AVG-JOE]

Were and still are what... a Christian nation?

I can't tell if you agree or disagree.

 

[Iceweasel]

Were and still are what... a Christian nation?

I can't tell if you agree or disagree.

A Christian Nation. The president to this day swears in office with a Bible. Not the Koran, Communist Manifesto or Evolution of the Species. Christian writings are all over court houses and federal buildings to this day. Troops were sent Bibles back in Washington's day. Holidays, etc. There are many examples that it's a nation that was and still is fundamentally Christian. Adam's Treaty was a appeasement to Muslims, not a official declaration of our founding principles. Even the DoI contains the word "Creator".

 

[AVG-JOE]

There was much discussion about slavery at the time but those who lobbied for private economic interests had overly loud voices.

Sound familiar?
​

Thank goodness the compromise included the exclusion of language specifically naming white, male, Christian property owners as the sole beneficiaries of constitutional protections.

Obviously, the reality on the ground was and is that achieving the vision of The US Constitution is an ongoing process.

Baby steps to the stars ​

 

[WinterBorn]

Were and still are what... a Christian nation?

I can't tell if you agree or disagree.

A Christian Nation. The president to this day swears in office with a Bible. Not the Koran, Communist Manifesto or Evolution of the Species. Christian writings are all over court houses and federal buildings to this day. Troops were sent Bibles back in Washington's day. Holidays, etc. There are many examples that it's a nation that was and still is fundamentally Christian. Adam's Treaty was a appeasement to Muslims, not a official declaration of our founding principles. Even the DoI contains the word "Creator".

The president is sworn in using what he chooses. John Quincey Adams used a law book. Teddy Roosevelt did not use a Bible. So it is not a requirement.

Yes, Christian writings are all over our courthouses. So are many other faiths and persons.

We are predominantly christian in our population. But if we were truly a "christian nation" we would be able to outlaw other faiths. Try that some time.

 

[Delta4Embassy]

What we began as, and what we've become are vastly different things.

We're a pseudo-Christian nation now.

 

[AVG-JOE]

A Christian Nation. The president to this day swears in office with a Bible. Not the Koran, Communist Manifesto or Evolution of the Species. Christian writings are all over court houses and federal buildings to this day. Troops were sent Bibles back in Washington's day. Holidays, etc. There are many examples that it's a nation that was and still is fundamentally Christian. Adam's Treaty was a appeasement to Muslims, not a official declaration of our founding principles. Even the DoI contains the word "Creator".

True.

Shame The Devil and tell the truth, The God of Abraham, as defined in The Torah, The New Testament and The Qur'an, does continue to have undue influence in the political processes of a nation which so vehemently professes itself to be pluralistic. But, that in no way diminishes the secular value of The Constitution, and, as more and more non religious groups and alternate religious groups alike claim their rightful piece of the American Pie via the liberal use of the word "ALL" in The Constitution and the growing affordability of quality lawyers, we take baby steps to the stars.

Pretty cool, eh?

 

[Iceweasel]

Were and still are what... a Christian nation?

I can't tell if you agree or disagree.

A Christian Nation. The president to this day swears in office with a Bible. Not the Koran, Communist Manifesto or Evolution of the Species. Christian writings are all over court houses and federal buildings to this day. Troops were sent Bibles back in Washington's day. Holidays, etc. There are many examples that it's a nation that was and still is fundamentally Christian. Adam's Treaty was a appeasement to Muslims, not a official declaration of our founding principles. Even the DoI contains the word "Creator".

The president is sworn in using what he chooses. John Quincey Adams used a law book. Teddy Roosevelt did not use a Bible. So it is not a requirement.

Yes, Christian writings are all over our courthouses. So are many other faiths and persons.

We are predominantly christian in our population. But if we were truly a "christian nation" we would be able to outlaw other faiths. Try that some time.

You missed the point. I said the laws are secular, this is not a theocracy. I made it clear I was talking culturally. Swearing in by way of the Bible can't be mandatory or we'd have a theocracy. Which is what Adams was saying.

We have sworn in at court with the Bible for the most part until recently. Is that a coincidence?

 

[WinterBorn]

Were and still are what... a Christian nation?

I can't tell if you agree or disagree.

A Christian Nation. The president to this day swears in office with a Bible. Not the Koran, Communist Manifesto or Evolution of the Species. Christian writings are all over court houses and federal buildings to this day. Troops were sent Bibles back in Washington's day. Holidays, etc. There are many examples that it's a nation that was and still is fundamentally Christian. Adam's Treaty was a appeasement to Muslims, not a official declaration of our founding principles. Even the DoI contains the word "Creator".

The president is sworn in using what he chooses. John Quincey Adams used a law book. Teddy Roosevelt did not use a Bible. So it is not a requirement.

Yes, Christian writings are all over our courthouses. So are many other faiths and persons.

We are predominantly christian in our population. But if we were truly a "christian nation" we would be able to outlaw other faiths. Try that some time.

You missed the point. I said the laws are secular, this is not a theocracy. I made it clear I was talking culturally. Swearing in by way of the Bible can't be mandatory or we'd have a theocracy. Which is what Adams was saying.

We have sworn in at court with the Bible for the most part until recently. Is that a coincidence?

It started out as a secular nation, and then became more and more a Christian nation. Then people began to push back against the encroachment of religion into our gov't, and it has been becoming more and more secular again. This is a good thing.

 

[PaintMyHouse]

Were and still are what... a Christian nation?

I can't tell if you agree or disagree.

A Christian Nation. The president to this day swears in office with a Bible. Not the Koran, Communist Manifesto or Evolution of the Species. Christian writings are all over court houses and federal buildings to this day. Troops were sent Bibles back in Washington's day. Holidays, etc. There are many examples that it's a nation that was and still is fundamentally Christian. Adam's Treaty was a appeasement to Muslims, not a official declaration of our founding principles. Even the DoI contains the word "Creator".

The president is sworn in using what he chooses. John Quincey Adams used a law book. Teddy Roosevelt did not use a Bible. So it is not a requirement.

Yes, Christian writings are all over our courthouses. So are many other faiths and persons.

We are predominantly christian in our population. But if we were truly a "christian nation" we would be able to outlaw other faiths. Try that some time.

You missed the point. I said the laws are secular, this is not a theocracy. I made it clear I was talking culturally. Swearing in by way of the Bible can't be mandatory or we'd have a theocracy. Which is what Adams was saying.

We have sworn in at court with the Bible for the most part until recently. Is that a coincidence?

It started out as a secular nation, and then became more and more a Christian nation. Then people began to push back against the encroachment of religion into our gov't, and it has been becoming more and more secular again. This is a good thing.

Agreed.

 

[Iceweasel]

It started out as a secular nation, and then became more and more a Christian nation. Then people began to push back against the encroachment of religion into our gov't, and it has been becoming more and more secular again. This is a good thing.

And Continental Congress open with Christian prayers, Bibles printed and sent to troops with federal money happened because....

 

[PaintMyHouse]

It started out as a secular nation, and then became more and more a Christian nation. Then people began to push back against the encroachment of religion into our gov't, and it has been becoming more and more secular again. This is a good thing.

And Continental Congress open with Christian prayers, Bibles printed and sent to troops with federal money happened because....

They were believers in a Creator, which they left out of the Constitution, and the Bible thing didn't happen as far as I've ever been able to find so you'd better link it and don't use David Barton: No Mr. Beck Congress Did Not Print a Bible for the Use of Schools

 

[AVG-JOE]

It started out as a secular nation, and then became more and more a Christian nation. Then people began to push back against the encroachment of religion into our gov't, and it has been becoming more and more secular again. This is a good thing.

And Continental Congress open with Christian prayers, Bibles printed and sent to troops with federal money happened because....

Americans who worship The God of Abraham, as defined in The Torah, The New Testament and The Qur'an, especially The New Testament, still have high demographic numbers and they're not ashamed to wield their religion politically.

 

[PaintMyHouse]

It started out as a secular nation, and then became more and more a Christian nation. Then people began to push back against the encroachment of religion into our gov't, and it has been becoming more and more secular again. This is a good thing.

And Continental Congress open with Christian prayers, Bibles printed and sent to troops with federal money happened because....

Americans who worship The God of Abraham, as defined in The Torah, The New Testament and The Qur'an, especially The New Testament, still have high demographic numbers and they're not ashamed to wield their religion politically.

Well they should be since that is one of the main people here in the first place, to avoid that.

 

[WinterBorn]

It started out as a secular nation, and then became more and more a Christian nation. Then people began to push back against the encroachment of religion into our gov't, and it has been becoming more and more secular again. This is a good thing.

And Continental Congress open with Christian prayers, Bibles printed and sent to troops with federal money happened because....

The aforementioned encroachment?