Founding Fathers: We Are Not a Christian Nation

[Lakhota]

I'm always amused when people from either side of the political specturm presume to know what the founding fathers thought or believed.

And I am always amused when people don't understand English. Of course we know what they meant. Copious amounts of evidence are there for the reading.

Mark

Yes and people can read the exact same thing and interpret them in very differnt ways.

I bet your teachers always did that.

 

[80zephyr]

Another crap filled post from a stupid liberal.

Mine is a Liberal nation, founded by Liberals based upon Liberalism. If you don't like then get the fuck out. You are neither needed nor wanted here.

And America can do a whole lot better then having you stupid liberal fucks ruining everything.

You've tried, and you fail every damn time. All we end up with is debts and wars, and religious intolerance.

And liberals have tried, and continue to fuck things up. All we end up with is a Big Government - More control, a Nanny State, Political Correctness, Redistribution of Wealth, and Debt.

If you don't like then get the fuck out. It's a Liberal Nation, it wasn't founded for your kind.

Revisionist history. If the founders were here today, they would be calling for another revolution.

Mark

 

[80zephyr]

I'm always amused when people from either side of the political specturm presume to know what the founding fathers thought or believed.

And I am always amused when people don't understand English. Of course we know what they meant. Copious amounts of evidence are there for the reading.

Mark

Yes and people can read the exact same thing and interpret them in very differnt ways.

Of course they can. If they are dishonest. Years ago, I was on my local village board, and when we had a question about state law, our municipal lawyers first question always was "what do you want it to say"?

That pretty much says it all. Remember this, in the first 150 years or so of our existence, our country understood what the Constitution said. Now, we seem to have a country chock full of "municipal lawyers".

Mark

 

[80zephyr]

Show me were they weren't and more important show me were anyone has claimed christinaty was part of the constitution.

So, you want me to prove a negative? NaziCons routinely exclaim that America is a Christian nation. Most of them have probably never even read the Constitution. HOWEVER, if you're suggesting that it is commonly understood that the Constitution is a SECULAR document - what's the problem?

I' m asking you to back up your claim something you prove you cant do when you resort to the childish Nazicon stuff. Saying America is a christian nation means you believe the people or the majority of them support and believe in the teachings of christ it does not mean your claiming christianity is part of the constitution as usual your spouting off idiocy you can't back up. It's like when you start threads about the wars Bush started and then you are asked what's the other war he started after the Iraq is acknowledged you never have an answer for that.

I only know of TWO wars Bush started: Afghanistan and Iraq. Is there another one?

No you claim he started two wars as you well know though your far to partisan and dishonest to admit the Afghanistan war was started by Al-Qeada with the 9-11-2001 attacks. To claim Bush started the war in Afghanistan is akin to claiming FDR statred the war with Japan and the Pearl Harbor attack had nothing to do with it. Even though your idiocy is well known I do thank you for finally saying Afghanistan and yet again confirming it.

I don't fault Bush for invading Afghanistan after 9/11 - but I do fault him for fucking it up and allowing Osama bin Laden to escape Tora Bora. Then, he made a detour into Iraq - which I strongly fault him for.

In recent weeks, I have heard former Associated Press reporter Ron Fournier on Fox News twice asserting, quite offhandedly, that President George W. Bush “lied us into war in Iraq.”
I found this shocking. I took a leave of absence from the bench in 2004-05 to serve as co-chairman of the Commission on the Intelligence Capabilities of the United States Regarding Weapons of Mass Destruction—a bipartisan body, sometimes referred to as the Robb-Silberman Commission. It was directed in 2004 to evaluate the intelligence community’s determination that Saddam Hussein possessed WMD—I am, therefore, keenly aware of both the intelligence provided to President Bush and his reliance on that intelligence as his primary casus belli. It is astonishing to see the “Bush lied” allegation evolve from antiwar slogan to journalistic fact.
The intelligence community’s 2002 National Intelligence Estimate (NIE) stated, in a formal presentation to President Bush and to Congress, its view that Saddam had weapons of mass destruction—a belief in which the NIE said it held a 90% level of confidence. That is about as certain as the intelligence community gets on any subject.

From a subscription wall Wall Street Journal article.

Mark

 

[Lakhota]

So, you want me to prove a negative? NaziCons routinely exclaim that America is a Christian nation. Most of them have probably never even read the Constitution. HOWEVER, if you're suggesting that it is commonly understood that the Constitution is a SECULAR document - what's the problem?

I' m asking you to back up your claim something you prove you cant do when you resort to the childish Nazicon stuff. Saying America is a christian nation means you believe the people or the majority of them support and believe in the teachings of christ it does not mean your claiming christianity is part of the constitution as usual your spouting off idiocy you can't back up. It's like when you start threads about the wars Bush started and then you are asked what's the other war he started after the Iraq is acknowledged you never have an answer for that.

I only know of TWO wars Bush started: Afghanistan and Iraq. Is there another one?

No you claim he started two wars as you well know though your far to partisan and dishonest to admit the Afghanistan war was started by Al-Qeada with the 9-11-2001 attacks. To claim Bush started the war in Afghanistan is akin to claiming FDR statred the war with Japan and the Pearl Harbor attack had nothing to do with it. Even though your idiocy is well known I do thank you for finally saying Afghanistan and yet again confirming it.

I don't fault Bush for invading Afghanistan after 9/11 - but I do fault him for fucking it up and allowing Osama bin Laden to escape Tora Bora. Then, he made a detour into Iraq - which I strongly fault him for.

In recent weeks, I have heard former Associated Press reporter Ron Fournier on Fox News twice asserting, quite offhandedly, that President George W. Bush “lied us into war in Iraq.”
I found this shocking. I took a leave of absence from the bench in 2004-05 to serve as co-chairman of the Commission on the Intelligence Capabilities of the United States Regarding Weapons of Mass Destruction—a bipartisan body, sometimes referred to as the Robb-Silberman Commission. It was directed in 2004 to evaluate the intelligence community’s determination that Saddam Hussein possessed WMD—I am, therefore, keenly aware of both the intelligence provided to President Bush and his reliance on that intelligence as his primary casus belli. It is astonishing to see the “Bush lied” allegation evolve from antiwar slogan to journalistic fact.
The intelligence community’s 2002 National Intelligence Estimate (NIE) stated, in a formal presentation to President Bush and to Congress, its view that Saddam had weapons of mass destruction—a belief in which the NIE said it held a 90% level of confidence. That is about as certain as the intelligence community gets on any subject.

From a subscription wall Wall Street Journal article.

Mark

What's your point? We didn't invade North Korea. Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11. Bush was planning to invade Iraq before 9/11. Bush ignored pre-9/11 warnings. Bush finally admitted Iraq had no WMDs.

The Downing Street Memo

President Bush Admits Iraq Had No WMDs and Nothing to Do With 9/11 - Democracy Now

 

[blackhawk]

I'm always amused when people from either side of the political specturm presume to know what the founding fathers thought or believed.

And I am always amused when people don't understand English. Of course we know what they meant. Copious amounts of evidence are there for the reading.

Mark

Yes and people can read the exact same thing and interpret them in very differnt ways.

I bet your teachers always did that.

People who don't subcribe to group think and the hive mentality will do that people who do will you should know the answer to that better than most.

 

[Lakhota]

If Christians know that the Constitution is a secular document - then why are they pushing to make Christianity the official religion? Maybe my question is the answer. Are they scared?

 

[PaintMyHouse]

Mine is a Liberal nation, founded by Liberals based upon Liberalism. If you don't like then get the fuck out. You are neither needed nor wanted here.

And America can do a whole lot better then having you stupid liberal fucks ruining everything.

You've tried, and you fail every damn time. All we end up with is debts and wars, and religious intolerance.

And liberals have tried, and continue to fuck things up. All we end up with is a Big Government - More control, a Nanny State, Political Correctness, Redistribution of Wealth, and Debt.

If you don't like then get the fuck out. It's a Liberal Nation, it wasn't founded for your kind.

Revisionist history. If the founders were here today, they would be calling for another revolution.

No, they'd be calling you what they did then, stupid. And no one but your mommy cares what your name is.

 

[80zephyr]

I' m asking you to back up your claim something you prove you cant do when you resort to the childish Nazicon stuff. Saying America is a christian nation means you believe the people or the majority of them support and believe in the teachings of christ it does not mean your claiming christianity is part of the constitution as usual your spouting off idiocy you can't back up. It's like when you start threads about the wars Bush started and then you are asked what's the other war he started after the Iraq is acknowledged you never have an answer for that.

I only know of TWO wars Bush started: Afghanistan and Iraq. Is there another one?

No you claim he started two wars as you well know though your far to partisan and dishonest to admit the Afghanistan war was started by Al-Qeada with the 9-11-2001 attacks. To claim Bush started the war in Afghanistan is akin to claiming FDR statred the war with Japan and the Pearl Harbor attack had nothing to do with it. Even though your idiocy is well known I do thank you for finally saying Afghanistan and yet again confirming it.

I don't fault Bush for invading Afghanistan after 9/11 - but I do fault him for fucking it up and allowing Osama bin Laden to escape Tora Bora. Then, he made a detour into Iraq - which I strongly fault him for.

In recent weeks, I have heard former Associated Press reporter Ron Fournier on Fox News twice asserting, quite offhandedly, that President George W. Bush “lied us into war in Iraq.”
I found this shocking. I took a leave of absence from the bench in 2004-05 to serve as co-chairman of the Commission on the Intelligence Capabilities of the United States Regarding Weapons of Mass Destruction—a bipartisan body, sometimes referred to as the Robb-Silberman Commission. It was directed in 2004 to evaluate the intelligence community’s determination that Saddam Hussein possessed WMD—I am, therefore, keenly aware of both the intelligence provided to President Bush and his reliance on that intelligence as his primary casus belli. It is astonishing to see the “Bush lied” allegation evolve from antiwar slogan to journalistic fact.
The intelligence community’s 2002 National Intelligence Estimate (NIE) stated, in a formal presentation to President Bush and to Congress, its view that Saddam had weapons of mass destruction—a belief in which the NIE said it held a 90% level of confidence. That is about as certain as the intelligence community gets on any subject.

From a subscription wall Wall Street Journal article.

Mark

What's your point? We didn't invade North Korea. Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11. Bush was planning to invade Iraq before 9/11. Bush ignored pre-9/11 warnings. Bush finally admitted Iraq had no WMDs.

The Downing Street Memo

President Bush Admits Iraq Had No WMDs and Nothing to Do With 9/11 - Democracy Now

I guess my "point" is that a bi-partisan committee felt the same as Bush did, and the Democrats backed his actions.

Mark

 

[chesswarsnow]

Sorry bout that,


1. We are a Christian Country in any working sense, and always will be, still are, most of the real people of this Nation are Christians, we are the ones doing all the good in this Nation, its losers like the PMH who try to pull it down, with voting in other losers like Obama.
2. I hate people like that!


Regards,
SirJamesofTexas

 

[PaintMyHouse]

Sorry bout that,


1. We are a Christian Country in any working sense, and always will be, still are, most of the real people of this Nation are Christians, we are the ones doing all the good in this Nation, its losers like the PMH who try to pull it down, with voting in other losers like Obama.
2. I hate people like that!

My people founded the place. Take your God and your guns, and get the fuck out. You aren't wanted here.

 

[Vigilante]

Sorry bout that,


1. We are a Christian Country in any working sense, and always will be, still are, most of the real people of this Nation are Christians, we are the ones doing all the good in this Nation, its losers like the PMH who try to pull it down, with voting in other losers like Obama.
2. I hate people like that!

My people founded the place. Take your God and your guns, and get the fuck out. You aren't wanted here.

Your GOD COMPLEX brought on by you....

Is showing ...again!

 

[PaintMyHouse]

Sorry bout that,


1. We are a Christian Country in any working sense, and always will be, still are, most of the real people of this Nation are Christians, we are the ones doing all the good in this Nation, its losers like the PMH who try to pull it down, with voting in other losers like Obama.
2. I hate people like that!

My people founded the place. Take your God and your guns, and get the fuck out. You aren't wanted here.

Your GOD COMPLEX brought on by you....

Is showing ...again!

Considering that I want all humans dead, including myself, your theory has a big hole in it there Dr. Freud.

 

[Vigilante]

Sorry bout that,


1. We are a Christian Country in any working sense, and always will be, still are, most of the real people of this Nation are Christians, we are the ones doing all the good in this Nation, its losers like the PMH who try to pull it down, with voting in other losers like Obama.
2. I hate people like that!

My people founded the place. Take your God and your guns, and get the fuck out. You aren't wanted here.

Your GOD COMPLEX brought on by you....

Is showing ...again!

Considering that I want all humans dead, including myself, your theory has a big hole in it there Dr. Freud.

I believe you lie, kill yourself and I'll believe you....Honest, I will!

 

[PaintMyHouse]

Sorry bout that,


1. We are a Christian Country in any working sense, and always will be, still are, most of the real people of this Nation are Christians, we are the ones doing all the good in this Nation, its losers like the PMH who try to pull it down, with voting in other losers like Obama.
2. I hate people like that!

My people founded the place. Take your God and your guns, and get the fuck out. You aren't wanted here.

Your GOD COMPLEX brought on by you....

Is showing ...again!

Considering that I want all humans dead, including myself, your theory has a big hole in it there Dr. Freud.

I believe you lie, kill yourself and I'll believe you....Honest, I will!

It only fixes things if we all go at once. Care to join in?

 

[Vigilante]

Sorry bout that,


1. We are a Christian Country in any working sense, and always will be, still are, most of the real people of this Nation are Christians, we are the ones doing all the good in this Nation, its losers like the PMH who try to pull it down, with voting in other losers like Obama.
2. I hate people like that!

My people founded the place. Take your God and your guns, and get the fuck out. You aren't wanted here.

Your GOD COMPLEX brought on by you....

Is showing ...again!

Considering that I want all humans dead, including myself, your theory has a big hole in it there Dr. Freud.

I believe you lie, kill yourself and I'll believe you....Honest, I will!

It only fixes things if we all go at once. Care to join in?

No problem, but I'll be a little late, so start without me!

 

[mikegriffith1]

Sorry to ruin another grossly revisionist spin on American history, but let's look at some facts:

JOHN ADAMS:

“The general Principles, on which the Fathers Achieved Independence, were the only Principles in which that beautiful Assembly of young Gentlemen could Unite . . . . And what were these general Principles? I answer, the general Principles of Christianity. . . . Now I will avow, that I then believed, and now believe, that those general Principles of Christianity, are as eternal and immutable, as the Existence and Attributes of God, and that those Principles of Liberty, are as unalterable as human Nature and our terrestrial, mundane System.” (Letter to Thomas Jefferson, June 28, 1813)

“. . . we have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. Avarice, ambition, revenge, or gallantry, would break the strongest cords of our Constitution as a whale goes through a net. Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other. (“An Address to the Officers of the First Brigade of the Third Division of the Militia of Massachusetts,” October 11, 1798)

“I feel it to be my duty to add, if a veneration for the religion of a people who profess and call themselves Christians, and a fixed resolution to consider a decent respect for Christianity among the best recommendations for the public service, can enable me in any degree to comply with your wishes, it shall be my strenuous endeavor that this sagacious injunction of the two Houses shall not be without effect.” (First Inaugural Address, March 4, 1797)

GEORGE WASHINGTON:

“Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports. In vain would that man claim the tribute of patriotism, who should labor to subvert these great pillars of human happiness, these firmest props of the duties of men and citizens. The mere politician, equally with the pious man, ought to respect and to cherish them. A volume could not trace all their connections with private and public felicity. Let it simply be asked: Where is the security for property, for reputation, for life, if the sense of religious obligation desert the oaths which are the instruments of investigation in courts of justice? And let us with caution indulge the supposition that morality can be maintained without religion. Whatever may be conceded to the influence of refined education on minds of peculiar structure, reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle.” (Farewell Address, September 17, 1796)

“I now make it my earnest prayer that God would have you, and the State over which you preside, in his holy protection; that he would incline the hearts of the citizens to cultivate a spirit of subordination and obedience to government, to entertain a brotherly affection and love for one another, for their fellow-citizens of the United States at large, and particularly for brethren who have served in the field; and finally that he would most graciously be pleased to dispose us all to do justice, to love mercy, and to demean ourselves with that charity, humility, and pacific temper of mind, which were the characteristics of the Divine Author of our blessed religion, and without an humble imitation of whose example in these things, we can never hope to be a happy nation.” (Letter from George Washington to All Governors, June 14, 1783)

“. . . it would be peculiarly improper to omit in this first official act my fervent supplications to that Almighty Being who rules over the universe, who presides in the councils of nations, and whose providential aids can supply every human defect, that His benediction may consecrate to the liberties and happiness of the people of the United States a Government instituted by themselves for these essential purposes, and may enable every instrument employed in its administration to execute with success the functions allotted to his charge. In tendering this homage to the Great Author of every public and private good, I assure myself that it expresses your sentiments not less than my own, nor those of my fellow--citizens at large less than either. No people can be bound to acknowledge and adore the Invisible Hand which conducts the affairs of men more than those of the United States. Every step by which they have advanced to the character of an independent nation seems to have been distinguished by some token of providential agency.” (First Inaugural Address, April 30, 1789)

Similar quotes from the founding fathers and from other prominent Americans in the founding era would fill literally hundreds of pages.

When FDR, in his D-Day invasion prayer--which he read to the nation over the radio on June 6, 1944--asked God to preserve "our religion," what religion do you think he had in mind?

 

[JakeStarkey]

Actually, what we ended up with is a deterioration of society, free love, drugs, shacking up, welfare, divorce, and single family households. Instead of bragging, maybe you should be holding your nose over the stench you have created? Mark

In church tomorrow, sit down and identify in your mind those guilty of adultery, fornication, divorce, theft, backbiting, gossip, and so forth. Then realize there is much more there than you know.

 

[JakeStarkey]

I'm always amused when people from either side of the political specturm presume to know what the founding fathers thought or believed.

And I am always amused when people don't understand English. Of course we know what they meant. Copious amounts of evidence are there for the reading.

Mark

Yes and people can read the exact same thing and interpret them in very differnt ways.

Of course they can. If they are dishonest. Years ago, I was on my local village board, and when we had a question about state law, our municipal lawyers first question always was "what do you want it to say"?

That pretty much says it all. Remember this, in the first 150 years or so of our existence, our country understood what the Constitution said. Now, we seem to have a country chock full of "municipal lawyers".Mark

The Virginia and Kentucky Resolutios. The Hartford Convention. The 1832 Tariff Crisis. The Civil War. The Great Depression.

There is no unified "That pretty much says it all."

Mark, your understanding of the Constitution and our history is deficient.

An example is your failure to understand what is federalism. Nine of the states had established religions when the Founders said "uh uh for the gold USA. We are not going to be stupid like that." And the states got in line.

We are in governance a secular nation of generally decreasing Christian nature.

 

[chesswarsnow]

Sorry bout that,


1. So there you have it, Mike Griffith1 just explained that the Constitution was indeed created by Christians, who in fact did believe in God, and tried to be careful not to name him in order to not identify themselves as any particular religion, which was their way to not promote one religion of Christ above another.
2. Although they believed in Jesus Christ, they were cogniant they were not making a religious document.
3. It had to be a secular document in order to establish itself as a *Effective Document* to govern this Nation, which it did.
4. At this time in American history even the Jews were not present in America, they didn't brave to journey from Europe to the New Country, and at that time as well the muslims were not in Europe in large numbers either so they were excluded as well, thank God.
5. On the most part the people who came to America, were Christians, who were wanting to escape some other religious intolerance be it the British form of religion or the Rome form.
6. We are indeed an historical Christian based Nation, Christians are what make USA Great, and that community thats still here is why we remain Great, we do have an opposing population of islamic evil people who curse this Nation and its people, who want to over throw it, and us, all the while we allow more in, which is insanity.


Regards,
SirJamesofTexas