Founding fathers on Healthcare

[Navy1960]

"If Congress can employ money indefinitely to the general welfare,
and are the sole and supreme judges of the general welfare,
they may take the care of religion into their own hands;
they may appoint teachers in every State, county and parish
and pay them out of their public treasury;
they may take into their own hands the education of children,
establishing in like manner schools throughout the Union;
they may assume the provision of the poor;
they may undertake the regulation of all roads other than post-roads;
in short, every thing, from the highest object of state legislation
down to the most minute object of police,
would be thrown under the power of Congress.... Were the power
of Congress to be established in the latitude contended for,
it would subvert the very foundations, and transmute the very nature
of the limited Government established by the people of America."

James Madison


I just thought some of you might enjoy what one of the our founders thought of the idea of a Govt. that people looked to for all it's needs.

 

[BasicGreatGuy]

It would have been much easier to state that federal healthcare is not one of the enumerated powers of Congress per Article 1, Section 8, of the Constitution.

So many people are spending all their time going through the proposed legislation looking for this health program and that health program, when they need to be about denouncing based on the aforementioned principle, in my opinion.

 

[Navy1960]

Meyer v Nebraska (1923), Rights of Privacy

"While this court has not attempted to define with exactness the liberty thus guaranteed, the term has received much consideration and some of the included things have been definitely stated. Without doubt, it denotes not merely freedom from bodily restraint but also the right of the individual to contract, to engage in any of the common occupations of life, to acquire useful knowledge, to marry, establish a home and bring up children, to worship God according to the dictates of his own conscience, and generally to enjoy those privileges long recognized at common law as essential to the orderly pursuit of happiness by free men."

Justice McReynolds

"Manfully maintain our good old principle of cherishing and fortifying the rights and authorities of the people in opposition to those who fear them, who wish to take all power from them and to transfer all to Washington." --Thomas Jefferson to Nathaniel Macon, 1826. FE 10:378

The men that founded this nation understood that the people were the best owners of their destiny and that liberty that is given over to a Govt. for personal comfort is not liberty but will eventually lead to corruption and slavery. These wise men understood this basic fact of Govt. very well and made sure that in our constitution that " The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people."

 

[JenT]

WAIT a second! when did you get here?

(*(*(*(*(BasicGreatGuy)*)*)*)*)*) Good to see you!

 

[Fatality]

people who love big government and no freedom would love to have lived in the dark ages. they would make most excellant peasents.

 

[Navy1960]

But a Constitution of Government once changed from Freedom, can never be restored. Liberty, once lost, is lost forever.

John Adams, letter to Abigail Adams, July 17, 1775

Each individual of the society has a right to be protected by it in the enjoyment of his life, liberty, and property, according to standing laws. He is obliged, consequently, to contribute his share to the expense of this protection; and to give his personal service, or an equivalent, when necessary. But no part of the property of any individual can, with justice, be taken from him, or applied to public uses, without his own consent, or that of the representative body of the people. In fine, the people of this commonwealth are not controllable by any other laws than those to which their constitutional representative body have given their consent.

John Adams, Thoughts on Government, 1776


As I stated earlier these men who founded this nation understood that the best place to find find good Govt. was in the hearts and minds of the people. Further, the best place for people to make a life for themselves was in their own homes and their own decisions and Govt. was to empower them and not act as the source for those needs.

 

[PoliticalChic]

But a Constitution of Government once changed from Freedom, can never be restored. Liberty, once lost, is lost forever.

John Adams, letter to Abigail Adams, July 17, 1775

Each individual of the society has a right to be protected by it in the enjoyment of his life, liberty, and property, according to standing laws. He is obliged, consequently, to contribute his share to the expense of this protection; and to give his personal service, or an equivalent, when necessary. But no part of the property of any individual can, with justice, be taken from him, or applied to public uses, without his own consent, or that of the representative body of the people. In fine, the people of this commonwealth are not controllable by any other laws than those to which their constitutional representative body have given their consent.

John Adams, Thoughts on Government, 1776


As I stated earlier these men who founded this nation understood that the best place to find find good Govt. was in the hearts and minds of the people. Further, the best place for people to make a life for themselves was in their own homes and their own decisions and Govt. was to empower them and not act as the source for those needs.

And a related story:

Today is the aniversary, 1846, of a statement by the 11th President of the United States, under whose guidance the country grew more than any other President, and whose views were consistent with those of Madison, and the others.

President Polk vetoed the Rivers and Harbors Bill, which included 40 projects, noting that many were of a local character far beyond what could be considered essential to national commerce, thus not covered by any constitutional power to construct works of internal improvements within the states. Polk stated: “Should this bill become law, the principle which it establishes will inevitably lead to large and annually increasing appropriations and drains upon the Treasury.”

Ironically, party of Jefferson, Jackson and Polk, with its opposition to federally funded internal improvements, would become the party of FDR (the New Deal) and LBJ (the Great Society).

He, also, understood the Constitution.

 

[Navy1960]

But a Constitution of Government once changed from Freedom, can never be restored. Liberty, once lost, is lost forever.

John Adams, letter to Abigail Adams, July 17, 1775

Each individual of the society has a right to be protected by it in the enjoyment of his life, liberty, and property, according to standing laws. He is obliged, consequently, to contribute his share to the expense of this protection; and to give his personal service, or an equivalent, when necessary. But no part of the property of any individual can, with justice, be taken from him, or applied to public uses, without his own consent, or that of the representative body of the people. In fine, the people of this commonwealth are not controllable by any other laws than those to which their constitutional representative body have given their consent.

John Adams, Thoughts on Government, 1776


As I stated earlier these men who founded this nation understood that the best place to find find good Govt. was in the hearts and minds of the people. Further, the best place for people to make a life for themselves was in their own homes and their own decisions and Govt. was to empower them and not act as the source for those needs.

And a related story:

Today is the aniversary, 1846, of a statement by the 11th President of the United States, under whose guidance the country grew more than any other President, and whose views were consistent with those of Madison, and the others.

President Polk vetoed the Rivers and Harbors Bill, which included 40 projects, noting that many were of a local character far beyond what could be considered essential to national commerce, thus not covered by any constitutional power to construct works of internal improvements within the states. Polk stated: “Should this bill become law, the principle which it establishes will inevitably lead to large and annually increasing appropriations and drains upon the Treasury.”

Ironically, party of Jefferson, Jackson and Polk, with its opposition to federally funded internal improvements, would become the party of FDR (the New Deal) and LBJ (the Great Society).

He, also, understood the Constitution.

The latter presidents you mentioned especially FDR even questioned the constitutionality of the (New Deal) especially social security. Thus the reason for his Supreme Court fiasco. There are many examples of FDR and his administration expressing concern of this issue. However the court cast aside all of Madison and other founders ideals on the constitution all for a narrow view put forth by Hamilton. Since that time we hav lived under this narrow view put up by Hamilton under Article 1 section 8 *General Welfare * meant that congress had the power to basically use this clause to do as they pleased. Which seems as Madison and others expressed was completly in conflict with our constitution and the ideas of limited Govt.

 

[Oscar Wao]

To the "General Welfare" abusers, it basically means EVERYTHING is a so-called "right."

 

[Fatality]

promoting the general welfare means staying the fuck off of our back

 

[Navy1960]

FDR

“necessitous men are not free men” and that freedom therefore entailed the opportunity to make “a living decent according to the standards of the time”—

“connect freedom with economic security”—


It's not surprising that after FDR tried to pack the court with 6 more members that most of his new deal was found constitutional in one for or another.

 

[BasicGreatGuy]

WAIT a second! when did you get here?

(*(*(*(*(BasicGreatGuy)*)*)*)*)*) Good to see you!

Howdy Jen. I forgot to take that left turn at Albuquerque and wound up here. Good to see you.

 

[Navy1960]

"Whensoever the General (federal) Government assumes undelegated powers, its acts are unauthoritative, void, and of no force." Thomas Jefferson

"Congress has not unlimited powers to provide for the general welfare, but only those specifically enumerated." Thomas Jefferson


One of the things that seems to be shaping up over this issue is some states have a new found courage to push back on their rights under the constitution. One such person of note is Gov. Rick Perry, who , if the healthcare bill passes will make for an interesting fight with the Fed should he refuse any of it's provisions. I suspect Texas cannot keep its citizens from applying for coverage under such a program howver , I do believe that a lot of the mandatory provisions can be fought with vigor and be kept from enforcement very easily should Tx. choose to do so.

 

[Newby]

Great thread, Navy.

 

[Luissa]

"Whensoever the General (federal) Government assumes undelegated powers, its acts are unauthoritative, void, and of no force." Thomas Jefferson

"Congress has not unlimited powers to provide for the general welfare, but only those specifically enumerated." Thomas Jefferson


One of the things that seems to be shaping up over this issue is some states have a new found courage to push back on their rights under the constitution. One such person of note is Gov. Rick Perry, who , if the healthcare bill passes will make for an interesting fight with the Fed should he refuse any of it's provisions. I suspect Texas cannot keep its citizens from applying for coverage under such a program howver , I do believe that a lot of the mandatory provisions can be fought with vigor and be kept from enforcement very easily should Tx. choose to do so.

I think it is funny that you quote Jefferson in regards to small government since the federal government more than doubled during his term.
And of course the founding father's would be against government run health care, in their day it didn't cost much to recieve medical treatment if anything, in some areas you could have probably traded work or chicken.
And I sure as hell don't think Jefferson would side with the insurance companies and their inflated prices. It seems to me that it would be something Jefferson would strongly disagree with.

 

[Navy1960]

Thank you Newby, I think it worth looking at what the founders of this nation had in mind when they created it and to get some idea as to where it's gone from there. If anyone takes the time to read Madison who is often considered the father of the constitution they will find he was quite stern in his views about what "limited Govt. " meant. It's only been in the 20th century that the ideas of Hamilton have been taken to mean that"general welfare " somehow means a blank check. If one were to think of this logically though, if that were actually the case, then why would the framers even bother to list specific rights elsewhere if this was so? Thats no me saying that, that is Madison and Jefferson. If you look at the FRD era you will also note that Justice Roberts even commented that they had to go against the constitution to avoid the court being rendered mute and along with popular sentiment. So since that time the nation has had the view of the constitution that "general welfare" means pretty much anything the Govt. wants it too. It should get intresting though in the comming months with all this legislation that clearly intrudes on the states. I'd be interested to see how a state like Texas that would basically tell the Fed. we will no longer participate in medicade and render the healthcare bill mute in Texas how the Feds. will react.

History affords us many instances of the ruin of states, by the prosecution of measures ill suited to the temper and genius of their people. The ordaining of laws in favor of one part of the nation, to the prejudice and oppression of another, is certainly the most erroneous and mistaken policy. An equal dispensation of protection, rights, privileges, and advantages, is what every part is entitled to, and ought to enjoy... These measures never fail to create great and violent jealousies and animosities between the people favored and the people oppressed; whence a total separation of affections, interests, political obligations, and all manner of connections, by which the whole state is weakened.

Benjamin Franklin, Emblematical Representations, Circa 1774

 

[Navy1960]

consider the foundation of the Constitution as laid on this ground that 'all powers not delegated to the United States, by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states or to the people.' To take a single step beyond the boundaries thus specially drawn around the powers of Congress, is to take possession of a boundless field of power, not longer susceptible of any definition.

Thomas Jefferson, Opinion on the Constitutionality of a National Bank, February 15, 1791



Luissa , I would strongly disagree with you on any assertion that Jefferson would be anywhere near in favor of a Govt. run healthcare system. In fact Jefferson was a strong advocate of personal liberty and had a strong disdain for the likes of Hamilton.

Hamilton was indeed a singular character. Of acute understanding, disinterested, honest, and honorable in all private transactions, amiable in society, and duly valuing virtue in private life, yet so bewitched & perverted by the British example, as to be under thoro' conviction that corruption was essential to the government of a nation.

Thomas Jefferson, on Alexander Hamilton in The Anas, 1791-1806

 

[Luissa]

consider the foundation of the Constitution as laid on this ground that 'all powers not delegated to the United States, by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states or to the people.' To take a single step beyond the boundaries thus specially drawn around the powers of Congress, is to take possession of a boundless field of power, not longer susceptible of any definition.

Thomas Jefferson, Opinion on the Constitutionality of a National Bank, February 15, 1791



Luissa , I would strongly disagree with you on any assertion that Jefferson would be anywhere near in favor of a Govt. run healthcare system. In fact Jefferson was a strong advocate of personal liberty and had a strong disdain for the likes of Hamilton.

Hamilton was indeed a singular character. Of acute understanding, disinterested, honest, and honorable in all private transactions, amiable in society, and duly valuing virtue in private life, yet so bewitched & perverted by the British example, as to be under thoro' conviction that corruption was essential to the government of a nation.

Thomas Jefferson, on Alexander Hamilton in The Anas, 1791-1806

I never said Jefferson would be for government run health care just that he would against inflated medical costs.
"The selfish spirit of commerce, which knows no country, and feels no passion or principle but that of gain."
Thomas Jefferson

 

[Navy1960]

Ahh but your contention is based on Jefferson(s) clear and well documented thoughts on a central bank and the founding fathers well documented writings on corporations, especially the East India Trading company. While I tend to agree with the notion that most of the founding fathers would have been somewhat taken aback at the sheer size of almost all American companies today and how much this ran contrary to original laws set down to curb such things. Like limiting corporate charters to 10 to 40 years for example, I think it's a big leap to say that means they would be against the notion of insurance companies all together. In fact IMO I dare say that the founding fathers would have rather seen the states regulate these corporations and let the states decide whats best for themselves rather than let a Federal Govt. do so. It's only been since the 30's has this Hamiltonion view of " general welfare" been taken to mean that Govt. has the power to do pretty much anything it wants. I would tend to agree that corporations according to the fouding father needed to be well regulated and it's also my opinion that under the commerce clause they did just that. It's only those that have represented us that have not had the courage to do so.

 

[Luissa]

Thomas Jefferson wanted small government, he also wanted farmer's to be in control of the market along with small business. I am sure he would not have wanted insurance companies making it impossible for these farmer's to obtain affordable health care or provide health care for the people who work for them.
With that I think we have let insurance companies go to far and there is no real way of going back without the government controling health care for at least a certain time period.Who else is going to reform the industry.ALso Health care should never be for profit.