For Those Who Do Believe In God...

[AVG-JOE]

The atrocities done in God's name were done against Christ's teachings. I took exception to your claim that native Americans aren't blessed as much as Europeans. I think you are wrong in that because God loves everyone equally, at least according to Christ.

You must be wrong, because it's against my faith for you to be right...Christ taught us it wasn't good enough to love our neighbor's, anybody can do that, we must love our enemies as well.

You can believe as you wish, but when it comes to God's blessings, you are wrong if you think God chooses one people over another, unless of course you go by the old testament, which I don't.

My point exactly... Why? Is God too weak or does he not care?

I believe the god of The Bible is as much a political tool of the powerful and an imaginary friend to the masses today as Zeus and Isis were in their glory days. My very position on the subject relegates my use of 'blessings' to a fictional term. I don't think there is a favored people on the planet any more than you do - but for very different reasons.

Can't we be friends anyway?

-Joe

 

[Kalam]

Go back further to when the Muslims practically conquered Europe, killing the men, raping and killing the women.

I seriously doubt that, as raping and killing women would blatantly contradict Islamic teachings.

'Abd Allah reported:

A woman was found among the killed in one of the battles of the Prophet, ﷺ, so the Messenger of Allah, ﷺ, forbade the killing of women and children. (B. 56:147)​

Wa'il ibn Hujr narrated:

When a woman went out in the time of the Prophet, ﷺ, for prayer, a man attacked her and overpowered (raped) her.

She shouted and he went off, and when a man came by, she said: That (man) did such and such to me. And when a company of the Emigrants came by, she said: That man did such and such to me. They went and seized the man whom they thought had had intercourse with her and brought him to her.

She said: Yes, this is he. Then they brought him to the Apostle of Allah, ﷺ.

When he (the Prophet) was about to pass sentence, the man who (actually) had assaulted her stood up and said: Apostle of Allah, I am the man who did it to her.

He (the Prophet) said to her: Go away, for Allah has forgiven you. But he told the man some good words, and of the man who had had intercourse with her, he said: Stone him to death.

He also said: He has repented to such an extent that if the people of Medina had repented similarly, it would have been accepted from them. (A.D. 38:4366)​

With God literally giving His life for us

Why did he do that?

 

[Coloradomtnman]

You must be wrong, because it's against my faith for you to be right...Christ taught us it wasn't good enough to love our neighbor's, anybody can do that, we must love our enemies as well.

And this is why religion is the cause of so much strife and so much oppression.

 

[tigerbob]

You mean the way you proselytize here against religion?

To each his own. Let them pray as they may.

A ritual sacrifice I would be against, but anyone is allowed to pray.

And I do not consider praying to be proselytizing. Why do you?

Sorry, Sheila, but you're acting the apologist in this case. She prayed and preached outloud. She could've prayed in private. She could've respected my grandmother's dying wishes.

So if a Satanist started praying outloud to Satan at your grandmother's funeral, you'd be okay with that. Really? Are you just saying that or are you being sincere?

I wouldn't. I'd consider it terribly disrespectful and insensitive. As such, I can't help but have sympathy for the scenario you have described.

 

[AVG-JOE]

You must be wrong, because it's against my faith for you to be right...Christ taught us it wasn't good enough to love our neighbor's, anybody can do that, we must love our enemies as well.

And this is why religion is the cause of so much strife and so much oppression.

I am not going to take it personally.

Every time I disagree with someone, there is an opportunity to learn... something about me, something about them or just something.

-Joe

 

[LOki]

Wow, what an incredible waste of thought. You're completely missing my point, . . .

No I'm not, i just thoroughly refuted it--and consistent with the arrogant nature of the faithful, " . . . what an incredible waste of thought."

. . .but I think you have too in order to come up with all the crap you just posted, which I didn't read most of since it just seems as though you are repeating yourself for the most part.

Of course it requires faith to judge the content of something that one has not read. BRAVO!

It's really quite simple. You cannot explain the universe, therefore, you cannot dismiss any theory of how it came to be about.

Sure you can.

It's irrational and illogical to think that you can.

No, it's clearly not.

For instance, I can clearly expalain how the universe did not come about by any conscious action on my part.

When you can, and you can dismiss any possibility of a higher being, then let me know.

Well, I got half of this task accomplished, which is better than what can be said for those who insist that a higher being created the universe.

Otherwise, you lose.

No yet, but you have lost.

 

[Againsheila]

The atrocities done in God's name were done against Christ's teachings. I took exception to your claim that native Americans aren't blessed as much as Europeans. I think you are wrong in that because God loves everyone equally, at least according to Christ.

You must be wrong, because it's against my faith for you to be right...Christ taught us it wasn't good enough to love our neighbor's, anybody can do that, we must love our enemies as well.

You can believe as you wish, but when it comes to God's blessings, you are wrong if you think God chooses one people over another, unless of course you go by the old testament, which I don't.

My point exactly... Why? Is God too weak or does he not care?

I believe the god of The Bible is as much a political tool of the powerful and an imaginary friend to the masses today as Zeus and Isis were in their glory days. My very position on the subject relegates my use of 'blessings' to a fictional term. I don't think there is a favored people on the planet any more than you do - but for very different reasons.

Can't we be friends anyway?

-Joe

Yes Joe, we can be friends, even though you think I believe in a mythical God.

 

[AVG-JOE]

The atrocities done in God's name were done against Christ's teachings. I took exception to your claim that native Americans aren't blessed as much as Europeans. I think you are wrong in that because God loves everyone equally, at least according to Christ.

You must be wrong, because it's against my faith for you to be right...Christ taught us it wasn't good enough to love our neighbor's, anybody can do that, we must love our enemies as well.

You can believe as you wish, but when it comes to God's blessings, you are wrong if you think God chooses one people over another, unless of course you go by the old testament, which I don't.

My point exactly... Why? Is God too weak or does he not care?

I believe the god of The Bible is as much a political tool of the powerful and an imaginary friend to the masses today as Zeus and Isis were in their glory days. My very position on the subject relegates my use of 'blessings' to a fictional term. I don't think there is a favored people on the planet any more than you do - but for very different reasons.

Can't we be friends anyway?

-Joe

Yes Joe, we can be friends, even though you think I believe in a mythical God.

Cool!

Please remember that, though I don't share your faith in God, I do respect how much it means to you.

-Joe

 

[YWN666]

You mean the way you proselytize here against religion?

To each his own. Let them pray as they may.

A ritual sacrifice I would be against, but anyone is allowed to pray.

And I do not consider praying to be proselytizing. Why do you?

Sorry, Sheila, but you're acting the apologist in this case. She prayed and preached outloud. She could've prayed in private. She could've respected my grandmother's dying wishes.

So if a Satanist started praying outloud to Satan at your grandmother's funeral, you'd be okay with that. Really? Are you just saying that or are you being sincere?

I wouldn't. I'd consider it terribly disrespectful and insensitive. As such, I can't help but have sympathy for the scenario you have described.

I wouldn't be OK with it either. In fact, I'd have a major meltdown and ask that person to leave. If someone feels the need to pray, they should do it quietly - the funeral is for the deceased and the family. It's not a place to proselytize.

 

[Mr. President]

Ah! I didn't put this question very well and I'm glad that you understood what I meant. However, I don't know if people choose to believe. I can't. To believe in the Christian religion, or any other organized religion, doesn't vibe with my life experiences. I can't suspend my inability to believe the supernatural and miraculous stories of the Bible just to try and save my soul. That was one of the points I was trying to make with this thread.

Because my religion is based on personal experience and relationships I dont believe you can be forced into conversion, but rather pursuaded in time through perosnal experiences that allow you to develop a relationship with God.

Okay, but how do you KNOW that your God came back from death?

"So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper [in the thing] whereto I sent it."
"heaven and earth shall pass away but my word shall not pass"

I can't argue with personal revelation. For you not to believe would go against your life experiences. But, can you admit that you may have been hallucinating, or somehow mistaken in your perception of those revelations?

Hllucinating is a far cry from my experiences however I may have been mistaken in my interpretation but not perception. It is the reality of the revelation and the undeniability of an experience in the spiritual realm that leads me to the faith I have.

Did you know that there are simple Newtonian and Einsteinian equations which explain why galaxies form like they do?

What is it that would have set those galaxies in motion the best theory science has to offer is big bang theory. Which was no more predicatable than the annoyingly loud commercial that interupts your favorite television show. The fact that science relies so heavily on chance to prove its existance even further substantiates my ability to have faith.

But, couldn't that also be hope? I hope that I'll win the fight? What about if I see that my enemy is a scrawny flabby guy who is clumsy? Do I have faith that I would beat him or would I trust that I would beat him because of prior experience in which I've learned that former Marines like myself are trained to kill with their barehands and scrawny little guys have little chance of beating me?

Being in the army I was taught to kill without hesitation to engage and destroy the enemy death if it comes would be at a price to the enemy. But also that underestimating your enemy could lead to disaster so I have faith that I will win but will not deny the capabilities of the enemy. Thus my faith is in tact and wisdom is exercised in the matter.

Is it faith, hope, trust, or confidence?

If you say couldn't that also be hope you would be using hope as an interchangable word with faith and so in theory it would still be faith. As far as hope in its original definition no it would not be the same if i hope i can win it means that I am saying there is a chance that I may not be able. Trust, Confidence in, and Faith are all interchangable in the english language and thus I could not argue with using any of the three.

 

[Againsheila]

Sorry, Sheila, but you're acting the apologist in this case. She prayed and preached outloud. She could've prayed in private. She could've respected my grandmother's dying wishes.

So if a Satanist started praying outloud to Satan at your grandmother's funeral, you'd be okay with that. Really? Are you just saying that or are you being sincere?

I wouldn't. I'd consider it terribly disrespectful and insensitive. As such, I can't help but have sympathy for the scenario you have described.

I wouldn't be OK with it either. In fact, I'd have a major meltdown and ask that person to leave. If someone feels the need to pray, they should do it quietly - the funeral is for the deceased and the family. It's not a place to proselytize.

In this case, it was a member of the family, Coloradoetc's family.

It's a shame that you don't feel people should be able to grieve as they feel best. Glad you're not in my family, and FYI, many members of my family are not Christian. Some are Buddist, some are athiest, etc.

 

[AVG-JOE]

I wouldn't. I'd consider it terribly disrespectful and insensitive. As such, I can't help but have sympathy for the scenario you have described.

I wouldn't be OK with it either. In fact, I'd have a major meltdown and ask that person to leave. If someone feels the need to pray, they should do it quietly - the funeral is for the deceased and the family. It's not a place to proselytize.

In this case, it was a member of the family, Coloradoetc's family.

It's a shame that you don't feel people should be able to grieve as they feel best. Glad you're not in my family, and FYI, many members of my family are not Christian. Some are Buddist, some are athiest, etc.

I'm imagining that it was the preachin' that offended and not the prayin'.

I wasn't there, so I obviously don't know... but I've seen the difference between praying: "Lord, I pray that Granny is in a better place and I ask you to comfort us in this time of grief..." and preaching: "Now is the time for all of you to get right with Jesus so you don't spend eternity burning in hell..."

Rarely do short, heartfelt prayers offend...

Colorado?

-Joe

 

[Coloradomtnman]

I wouldn't be OK with it either. In fact, I'd have a major meltdown and ask that person to leave. If someone feels the need to pray, they should do it quietly - the funeral is for the deceased and the family. It's not a place to proselytize.

In this case, it was a member of the family, Coloradoetc's family.

It's a shame that you don't feel people should be able to grieve as they feel best. Glad you're not in my family, and FYI, many members of my family are not Christian. Some are Buddist, some are athiest, etc.

So, Sheila, if one of your atheist of buddhist family members requested that they have a non-religious celebration of their memory after they die, would you think its okay to stand up and ask everyone to bow their heads in a prayer? Do you think that wouldn't be disrespectful to the deceased's memory?

I'm imagining that it was the preachin' that offended and not the prayin'.

I wasn't there, so I obviously don't know... but I've seen the difference between praying: "Lord, I pray that Granny is in a better place and I ask you to comfort us in this time of grief..." and preaching: "Now is the time for all of you to get right with Jesus so you don't spend eternity burning in hell..."

Rarely do short, heartfelt prayers offend...

Colorado?

-Joe

Actually it was both. My grandmother didn't want religion at her funeral. My uncles, my father, my brother, my step-mother, my uncle's life partner, my cousin...most of my family is agnostic, atheist, or rosa-crucian which is a spiritual belief but not a religiouns one. When my aunt stood up, opened her prayer book, and told us all the my grandmother was in Heaven with God she not only offended the majority of the family (which is a matter of taste), but more importantly is that she disrespected my grandmother's request. When she began to talk about how Jesus is our one and true savior, the tension in the room became palpable. She knew what my grandmother had requested. We all did.

People can grieve however they want. But if when they all dealing with grief they masturbate, and that offends some people, shouldn't they do it in private? Kindof an extreme example, but the principle is the same.

If this was how she grieved, then she could have done it silently or privately, or somewhere other than where my grandmother asked it not to be.

She demonstrated the self-righteousness that some people, particularly those of monotheistic evanglist religions, use to justify forcing their religion into someone else's traditions, culture, rituals, or lifestyle. Sheila is skirting the issue: kinda like not allowing people to have same-sex marriages and then saying it has to do with special rights, but not saying it has to do with their personal religion - even though we all know that's what its about.

 

[YWN666]

I wouldn't. I'd consider it terribly disrespectful and insensitive. As such, I can't help but have sympathy for the scenario you have described.

I wouldn't be OK with it either. In fact, I'd have a major meltdown and ask that person to leave. If someone feels the need to pray, they should do it quietly - the funeral is for the deceased and the family. It's not a place to proselytize.

In this case, it was a member of the family, Coloradoetc's family.

It's a shame that you don't feel people should be able to grieve as they feel best.

I don't care if it is a member of the family and you can grieve however you like but if you start proselytizing, that steps over the line and imposes on the family. Like I said, it is not about YOU, it is about THEM.

Glad you're not in my family

Ahh, we agree on something.

and FYI, many members of my family are not Christian. Some are Buddist, some are athiest, etc.

Yeah, so what?

 

[YWN666]

I wouldn't be OK with it either. In fact, I'd have a major meltdown and ask that person to leave. If someone feels the need to pray, they should do it quietly - the funeral is for the deceased and the family. It's not a place to proselytize.

In this case, it was a member of the family, Coloradoetc's family.

It's a shame that you don't feel people should be able to grieve as they feel best. Glad you're not in my family, and FYI, many members of my family are not Christian. Some are Buddist, some are athiest, etc.

I'm imagining that it was the preachin' that offended and not the prayin'.

I wasn't there, so I obviously don't know... but I've seen the difference between praying: "Lord, I pray that Granny is in a better place and I ask you to comfort us in this time of grief..." and preaching: "Now is the time for all of you to get right with Jesus so you don't spend eternity burning in hell..."

Rarely do short, heartfelt prayers offend...

Colorado?

-Joe

I think you hit the nail on the head.

 

[Newby]

Wow, what an incredible waste of thought. You're completely missing my point, . . .

No I'm not, i just thoroughly refuted it--and consistent with the arrogant nature of the faithful, " . . . what an incredible waste of thought."

. . .but I think you have too in order to come up with all the crap you just posted, which I didn't read most of since it just seems as though you are repeating yourself for the most part.

Of course it requires faith to judge the content of something that one has not read. BRAVO!

Sure you can.

No, it's clearly not.

For instance, I can clearly expalain how the universe did not come about by any conscious action on my part.

When you can, and you can dismiss any possibility of a higher being, then let me know.

Well, I got half of this task accomplished, which is better than what can be said for those who insist that a higher being created the universe.

Otherwise, you lose.

No yet, but you have lost.

Your argument if rife with assumptions, because you know nothing about me. You've fallen prey to the typical stereotypes that you like to place on what you call 'people with faith'. Whatever makes you happy, bro, but your stereotype is wrong, especially where I am concerned. But, if you want to remain in your own little happy world where you think you know everything, and think you know everything about someone from a message board, more power to you. Your faith in yourself is sadly misplaced. Have a nice day!

 

[LOki]

Your argument if rife with assumptions, . . .

You could be right, but I'll just bet you won't point one out.

But I predict if you do offer one, it will be another baseless assumption on your part.

. . . because you know nothing about me.

I know what you posted, and rather than assumptions, they're what I responded to.

Too bad you don't reciprocate in turn.

You've fallen prey to the typical stereotypes that you like to place on what you call 'people with faith'.

What, EXACTLY, do I like to do? Who's assuming?

Whatever makes you happy, bro, but your stereotype is wrong, especially where I am concerned.

Who, exaclty is stereotyping? Who exactly is assuming?

But, if you want to remain in your own little happy world where you think you know everything, . . .

Who, exaclty is stereotyping? Who exactly is assuming?

. . . and think you know everything about someone from a message board, more power to you.

Who, exaclty is stereotyping? Who exactly is assuming?

Your faith in yourself is sadly misplaced.

What faith where? Be careful to not assume.

 

[tigerbob]

No I'm not, i just thoroughly refuted it--and consistent with the arrogant nature of the faithful, " . . . what an incredible waste of thought."

Don't you think that that is a bit arrogant, or at least assumptive?

 

[LOki]

No I'm not, i just thoroughly refuted it--and consistent with the arrogant nature of the faithful, " . . . what an incredible waste of thought."

Don't you think that that is a bit arrogant, . . .

No.

. . . or at least assumptive?

No.

 

[tigerbob]

No I'm not, i just thoroughly refuted it--and consistent with the arrogant nature of the faithful, " . . . what an incredible waste of thought."

Don't you think that that is a bit arrogant, . . .

No.

. . . or at least assumptive?

No.

You don't think it's assumptive to call an entire group of people arrogant, irrespective of the fact that there are many millions of them, with many different faiths, and vastly differing levels of, how can one put it, 'religious zeal'? If one has faith, one must therefore be arrogant, correct?