Zone1 For Christians who believe in Darwinian evolution, question

[Donald H]

I can. Remember, my grandmother lived in the 1930s and the idea of taking everything in the Bible literally was laughable by most. I lived in the 1970s when Fundamental Evangelicals were trying to convince the rest of us the Bible should be taken literally.

Yes, fundamental evangelists. But my Catholic sister-in-law still does.
It's probably true that those having an IQ of 100 or below are mostly literal believers, contrary to your dubious evidence.
Could we put the question to the test on this forum? Keeping in mind that the average may be a somewhat weighted average. One thing it would illustrate is that the lowest of the sampling would be predictably literal believers.

If people were taking the Bible literally, there would have been no reason for a small Christian sect to try to convince the rest of us it should be taken literally.

It was more than just a small Christian sect.
I'm comfortable with saying that the bible was taken literally by at least 90% in the 18th. century. I offer that as the bar to clear.

 

[Donald H]

I said the story had a theme, a lesson to be taught/learned. I don't see that as manufacturing a truth, more like illuminating a truth. And that 'theme-lesson-truth' has nothing to do with how long--if at all--a human could survive being swallowed by a big fish. That's a distraction being dragged into the story by modern people.

This is going nowhere. I think I can safely and gracefully bow out now.

If you have any valid point to make, I'll likely see it, or you can draw my attention ................

 

[Meriweather]

Maybe just understand that I'm being polite and I feel that the questions on the god need to be addressed.

Try to understand that a great majority of the faithful simply ignore the Evangelical Fundamentalists and their "brainstorms" of a 24-hour creation day and people rapturing up/vanishing into the sky.

 

[Meriweather]

It was more than just a small Christian sect.
I'm comfortable with saying that the bible was taken literally by at least 90% in the 18th. century. I offer that as the bar to clear.

You seem quite comfortable with the idea that all, or the majority of, our ancestors were stupid.

 

[Meriweather]

If you have any valid point to make, I'll likely see it, or you can draw my attention

Hmm. I guess I am not convinced you would recognize a valid point.

Still, I appreciate the discussion.

 

[Donald H]

Hmm. I guess I am not convinced you would recognize a valid point.

Still, I appreciate the discussion.

When the Christian becomes rude and insulting, that definitely ends it!

 

[Donald H]

You seem quite comfortable with the idea that all, or the majority of, our ancestors were stupid.

'Stupid' could substitute for an explanation of people's beliefs before Darwin. I would prefer 'ignorant' in it's true meaning. Not in the derogatory meaning.

 

[Donald H]

Try to understand that a great majority of the faithful simply ignore the Evangelical Fundamentalists and their "brainstorms" of a 24-hour creation day and people rapturing up/vanishing into the sky.

You're questioning your faith.

 

[Meriweather]

When the Christian becomes rude and insulting, that definitely ends it!

Here is the deal. I was giggling, having fun with different perspectives and our different studies. Instead, seeing how serious you are, I see all along you were merely being insufferably patronizing. I'll not bother you again.

 

[Donald H]

Here is the deal. I was giggling, having fun with different perspectives and our different studies. Instead, seeing how serious you are, I see all along you were merely being insufferably patronizing. I'll not bother you again.

Yes, I am serious but I have to admit that it became patronizing on my part.

You don't bother me.

I'll continue to pick up on some of your comments that are related to your Christian beliefs and I'm not in the least concerned if you consider me bothersome.

In my opinion you've become petulant and I suspect that it's because you're realizing that it's because you're questioning your faith.

I will say though, that both you and Ding have greatly improved on the general performance of this forum in my opinion.

 

[surada]

Absolutely.

Certainly, any fool that denies God.

The story of Jonah is a fiction in the form of a comic novella.

 

[Clyde 154]

There are thousands of clay tablets in five different languages at Ugarit..

Jews borrowed from Sumer and Egyptian mythos.

Why do you reject that religion evolved?

Quartz Hill School of Theology

www.theology.edu

Once again.....you keep asking deflective questions without ever presenting the proof of your accusations....Where is the copy of Ps. 50? Again with the deflection?
Indeed........I reject that Religion, true religion in serving the One true Godhead has changed, God does not change, man might change, socieities might change.....but truth never changes. Anything that is subject to change is not a FACT/TRUTH. Laws are consistently.......observable, and reproducible upon each application. If you approach religion as an evolutionary process you will never SEE THE KINGDOM OF GOD.

God in His relationships (covenants) is unchanging in that He opposes sin and and unrighteousness, while approving and rewarding righteousness and obedient living. God keeps His word and His promises. From Genesis to Revelation......God has remained the same unchanging God of creation.

Inherent and opposed to your accusation that true religion can change is the revelation that God cannot lie and always demands truth as a primary condition of righteousness. (Numbers 23:19, 1 Sam. 15:29, Rom. 3:4, Heb. 6:18). The characteristics of God never changes.......if they did it would be impossible to serve/worship God in Spirit and Truth if God changed from ond day to the next. Example: suppose one lived by all the conditions of the N.T. law and was repentant of any sins he/she might have engaged......and God changed those conditions when Jesus returned for judgment? You might approach the seat of judgment on the day of judgment (2 Cor. 5:10) to find that God invoked other laws of judgment, this would make God a liar, a god that did not keep his promises....etc., If religions do change/evolve..........we are all lost to an eternal reprobate status.

What about the different covenants when Christ nailed the Law of Moses to His cross (Col.2:16)? God never changed, its stated very clearly that Jesus came to fulfill the law of Moses and prophets (Matthew 5:17-20) in order to provide a method for all of mankind to find salvation (Jer 31:31-34). God was a husband unto Israel as an example to the world, God stated clearly that the covenant of Moses was but temporary.....because those living under the strain of the literal law always failed to keep the law.

The Old Law was to prepare the earth and all men for the covenant of the Last Days of Man (Acts 2)........the last covenant between God and man, thus the Law and prophets prepared mankind to include presenting the proof/evidence of Jesus' lineage as the Son of Man and the Son of God (Luke 24:44, Gal. 3:24).....proving that Jesus was the seed of Adam, Abraham, David, and existed as I Am before Abraham was (John 8:58) the Son of the Living God.

God did not change His nature when the N.T. covenant came into existence. The N.T. church of Christ/kingdom, in which all men on earth can be saved from eternal damnation was planned in the mind of God from the very beginning of time itself, even before the earth was created. It was His (God's) eternal purpose (Eph. 3:10-11).

In fact the history found in the O.T contains many prophecies concerning the Messiah's church/kingdom (Gen. 3:15, Isa. 2:2-3, Dan. 2:44...etc., )

 

[Clyde 154]

This thread is for Christians who believe in Darwinian evolution.

That statement is an oxymoron.......you can't be a faithful Christian and accept evolution as a truth. Christ never accepted evolution, He clearly stated that God created man and woman in the beginning. (Matt. 19:4)

Everyone is an agent of FREE WILL and can believe anything they are gullible enough to believe. Strange is the fact that the Word of God was accepted as truth.....until just recently in world history. What's changed? Man or God? There are not any choices to make like one goes grocery shopping....there is only one true path to salvation. "There is only one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to one hope that belongs to your call .....one Lord, one faith, one God and Father of all, one baptism.........one grace through the revelations of Christ's gift.........." -- Eph. 4:4-6

Understood, this thread is for the promotion of FALSE DOCTRINE......a doctrine that cannot be found in the Holy Scriptures that were inspired of God. What then do you do with the Apostle who declares that Gospel Truth....Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God? (Romans 10:17). The Holy Scriptures are the very foundational source of True Christianity, there would be NO CHRISTIAN CHURCH if not for the Holy Scriptures that have remained unbroken over a 3500 year period of time.

 

[Donald H]

That statement is an oxymoron.......you can't be a faithful Christian and accept evolution as a truth. Christ never accepted evolution, He clearly stated that God created man and woman in the beginning. (Matt. 19:4)

Do most Christians agree with you?

I think it's something that needs to be investigated more completely.

Offhand my rough guess is that it's about 50/50 in America as a whole, but could vary to as high as 75% not being literal believers in the more progressive states to as much as 75% being literal believers in the more conervative southern states.

 

[Donald H]

Fewer in U.S. Now See Bible as Literal Word of God

Coinciding with a general decline in religiosity in the U.S., a record-low 20% of Americans now say they believe the Bible is literally true.

news.gallup.com

Here's some proof that those who believe the bible is the literal word of god hasn't been steady in the years since 1980.
Surely we can safely assume that the years since 1900 for example has seen at least a linear change..

WASHINGTON, D.C. -- A record-low 20% of Americans now say the Bible is the literal word of God, down from 24% the last time the question was asked in 2017, and half of what it was at its high points in 1980 and 1984.

So 40% were literal believers in their bibles in 1980 and that's enough to prove that we didn't get the facts from Meriweather.
How has that changed from 20% today to some much larger per centage in 1900.

Maybe 70% were literal believers in 1900? That would seem reasonable. What would Meriweather estimate, considering that he's now stuck with 40% in 1980?

The strictly linear change would represent a 20% increase in roughly every 40 years, giving us 80% literal believers in 1910.

This is pretty close to what I've expected would be true. Do Christians agree?

 

[Seymour Flops]

The only interesting thing about your comment is that it flies in the face of Meriweather's beliefs that he maintains are the beliefs of the Catholic church!

It depends on the exact beliefs Meriweather holds. I don't know what they are. It's one thing to believe in evolution and another to believe in evolution via natural selection.

The latter excludes God in any role except inactive observer.

The story is still being amended to suit modern science and it's not going to stop changing until it's abandoned completely, along with all the other religions that have been abandoned.

You may be right. But if they abandon their religion because they buy that Darwinism is settled science, they will have been badly duped by haters of religion.

 

[Seymour Flops]

That statement is an oxymoron.......you can't be a faithful Christian and accept evolution as a truth. Christ never accepted evolution, He clearly stated that God created man and woman in the beginning. (Matt. 19:4)

Everyone is an agent of FREE WILL and can believe anything they are gullible enough to believe. Strange is the fact that the Word of God was accepted as truth.....until just recently in world history. What's changed? Man or God? There are not any choices to make like one goes grocery shopping....there is only one true path to salvation. "There is only one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to one hope that belongs to your call .....one Lord, one faith, one God and Father of all, one baptism.........one grace through the revelations of Christ's gift.........." -- Eph. 4:4-6

Understood, this thread is for the promotion of FALSE DOCTRINE......a doctrine that cannot be found in the Holy Scriptures that were inspired of God. What then do you do with the Apostle who declares that Gospel Truth....Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God? (Romans 10:17). The Holy Scriptures are the very foundational source of True Christianity, there would be NO CHRISTIAN CHURCH if not for the Holy Scriptures that have remained unbroken over a 3500 year period of time.

Clyde, this thread is not for the promotion of any doctrine.

 

[Meriweather]

It depends on the exact beliefs @Meriweather holds. I don't know what they are. It's one thing to believe in evolution and another to believe in evolution via natural selection.

The Catholic Church notes three positions: First, that the creation noted in each day happened instantaneously. Second, that creation stages last much longer than a 24-hour day, but proceeded with God's guidance. Third, creation occurred randomly. The Catholic Church isn't concerned about whether some choose to believe in a literal six day creation or whether some choose to believe in the lengthier creation process under God's guidance. The Catholic faith rejects the third position that it all happened randomly.

The Catholic Church concerns itself more with redemption and salvation (spiritual issues) than physical issues.

 

[surada]

Once again.....you keep asking deflective questions without ever presenting the proof of your accusations....Where is the copy of Ps. 50? Again with the deflection?
Indeed........I reject that Religion, true religion in serving the One true Godhead has changed, God does not change, man might change, socieities might change.....but truth never changes. Anything that is subject to change is not a FACT/TRUTH. Laws are consistently.......observable, and reproducible upon each application. If you approach religion as an evolutionary process you will never SEE THE KINGDOM OF GOD.

God in His relationships (covenants) is unchanging in that He opposes sin and and unrighteousness, while approving and rewarding righteousness and obedient living. God keeps His word and His promises. From Genesis to Revelation......God has remained the same unchanging God of creation.

Inherent and opposed to your accusation that true religion can change is the revelation that God cannot lie and always demands truth as a primary condition of righteousness. (Numbers 23:19, 1 Sam. 15:29, Rom. 3:4, Heb. 6:18). The characteristics of God never changes.......if they did it would be impossible to serve/worship God in Spirit and Truth if God changed from ond day to the next. Example: suppose one lived by all the conditions of the N.T. law and was repentant of any sins he/she might have engaged......and God changed those conditions when Jesus returned for judgment? You might approach the seat of judgment on the day of judgment (2 Cor. 5:10) to find that God invoked other laws of judgment, this would make God a liar, a god that did not keep his promises....etc., If religions do change/evolve..........we are all lost to an eternal reprobate status.

What about the different covenants when Christ nailed the Law of Moses to His cross (Col.2:16)? God never changed, its stated very clearly that Jesus came to fulfill the law of Moses and prophets (Matthew 5:17-20) in order to provide a method for all of mankind to find salvation (Jer 31:31-34). God was a husband unto Israel as an example to the world, God stated clearly that the covenant of Moses was but temporary.....because those living under the strain of the literal law always failed to keep the law.

The Old Law was to prepare the earth and all men for the covenant of the Last Days of Man (Acts 2)........the last covenant between God and man, thus the Law and prophets prepared mankind to include presenting the proof/evidence of Jesus' lineage as the Son of Man and the Son of God (Luke 24:44, Gal. 3:24).....proving that Jesus was the seed of Adam, Abraham, David, and existed as I Am before Abraham was (John 8:58) the Son of the Living God.

God did not change His nature when the N.T. covenant came into existence. The N.T. church of Christ/kingdom, in which all men on earth can be saved from eternal damnation was planned in the mind of God from the very beginning of time itself, even before the earth was created. It was His (God's) eternal purpose (Eph. 3:10-11).

In fact the history found in the O.T contains many prophecies concerning the Messiah's church/kingdom (Gen. 3:15, Isa. 2:2-3, Dan. 2:44...etc., )

Luke lived in Antioch and never met Jesus. Isaiah is about Israel and Daniel was written in 164 BC about how Antiochus IV Epiphanies defiled the temple and tried to Hellenize the Jews.

 

[Seymour Flops]

The Catholic Church notes three positions: First, that the creation noted in each day happened instantaneously. Second, that creation stages last much longer than a 24-hour day, but proceeded with God's guidance. Third, creation occurred randomly. The Catholic Church isn't concerned about whether some choose to believe in a literal six day creation or whether some choose to believe in the lengthier creation process under God's guidance. The Catholic faith rejects the third position that it all happened randomly.

The Catholic Church concerns itself more with redemption and salvation (spiritual issues) than physical issues.

Then the Catholic Church does not subscribe to Darwinism. Therefore if any Catholic accepts it, they are following the teachings of the world rather than the Church.

As to a literal or allegorical or any other interpretation of the Bible many are reasonable. But no reasonable interpretation of Genesis allows for randomness in the appearance and propagation of life on Earth.

Nor does any reasonable analysis of biology.