For all you Wrongpublicans supporting the 'Fair Tax'

[kaz]

Well would you look at that--it's not a "fair tax" at all, but rather the FairTax™, which would crush the middle class and absolutely slaughter the lower class by introducing a nearly 30% federal sales tax, on top of whatever your state and local sales taxes are.

All taxes are built into the price of products now. It's not a new tax, it replaces the old ones. The benefit is that it's direct and simpler.

 

[Skull Pilot]

The problem with all of our current tax schemes, as I have said and amply demonstrated, is the ability of politicians to provide exemptions, deductions, carve-outs, whatever you want to call them. These tax expenditures completely undermine and corrupt whatever tax scheme you can come up with.

So until we take away the ability of politicians to do these things in exchange for campaign cash, then any talk of, or attempts at, 'reform' are just so much mental masturbation.

And you don't think that "prebate" will be messed with?

Hint: You can bet your ass it will be messed with

 

[Skull Pilot]

No, it is not. Perhaps you should study some economics before making such a boneheaded mistake.

I took 4 semesters of Economics.

You need more. Are you one of those people who only showed up for the classes that were just before the exams when the teacher coached the class on the test?

Yeah refuse to think for yourself, sheep.

And BTW a flat tax is not defined as regressive but rather as proportional. Maybe you need to learn the definitions you so blindly accept.

 

[kaz]

That's right--the FairTax™ wouldn't just give tax credits to Shamika, which she receives currently, but would in fact subsidize hyr choice to have as many kids as possible. In fact, the FairTax™ would subsidize more of hyr chyldryn than she could ever hope to claim as dependents under the current income tax system.

You're using liberal math here. The prebate only pays the taxes on their expenses up to the poverty line. How are they going to make money that way?

 

[thereisnospoon]

The speech pattern is reminiscent of the democrat segregationists when they were kicking Blacks out of restaurants. Is it a veiled threat against the Black population? You betta stay on de democrat plantation and not even think of being a republican or we will get y'all.

I will remind you of the rules: "No hijacking or derailing threads."
http://www.usmessageboard.com/annou...48-usmb-rules-and-guidelines.html#post6790048

Comment on the thread's actual topic--the Fair Tax Act--or don't comment at all. Your choice.

Oh shut up....You are one of the biggest culprits

 

[Skull Pilot]

No, it is not. Perhaps you should study some economics before making such a boneheaded mistake.

I took 4 semesters of Economics.

You need more. Are you one of those people who only showed up for the classes that were just before the exams when the teacher coached the class on the test, and then got graded on a curve?

I've been out in the real world.

I was the guy who messed up the curve for sheep like you.

 

[kaz]

What about the 23% figure? That's tax-inclusive, which means that the rate given to us is presented when calculating the percentage of tax AFTER you have added the tax to the cost of the goods you're purchasing

1) The same way that income and business taxes are calculated. Who's being misleading? You are. A 23% business tax is being replaced according to Republicans with a 23% Fair Tax. Apples to apples the same. You are playing a math game where you're saying a 23% tax is being replaced with a 30% implying a non existant a tax increase

2) Since it's tax revenue neutral, what you are actually arguing is that the tax burden on Americans is higher than you portray it to be. Thanks for your support on that, you're right.

 

[thereisnospoon]

Part I: The FairTax™

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FairTax


Well would you look at that--it's not a "fair tax" at all, but rather the FairTax™, which would crush the middle class and absolutely slaughter the lower class by introducing a nearly 30% federal sales tax, on top of whatever your state and local sales taxes are.

Keep in mind, Wrongpublicans, that the FairTax™ does not abolish state income taxes, nor does it touch local property taxes. A typical North Carolina resident, for example will be paying an 8% state income tax, a sales tax of 7-8% in most places (this depends upon exactly where you live), and a 30% federal sales tax.

It's not the equivalent of the 30% sales tax, dingbat. It's the equivalent of a 23% sales tax. The left constantly lies about the FAIR tax, and the above is just another example.

OH ******* REALLY.

Since you're obviously TOO MAGNIFICENTLY STUPID AND ADHD to be able to read the thread the whole way through, including portion where I address this very limp-wristed, autistic argument, I'll dumb it down for you. Get ready to have your mind blown, conservatard bigot:

You buy an item that costs $50.

You pay $50 in sales tax.

The amount you pay for the item is thus $100.

What, then, is the sales tax rate? Is it 50%, since only 50% of the amount you paid for the item is taxes? Or is it 100%, since the amount of taxes levied on the item you bought was equal to 100% of that item's actual cost?

This is a matter of whether or not the stated rate relies upon tax-inclusive or tax-exclusive calculations. This is the difference between the figures of 23% and 30%.

IF YOU CANNOT UNDERSTAND THESE BASIC MATHEMATICAL CALCULATIONS, YOU MAY NEED TO RE-ENROLL IN THIRD GRADE.



I'm glad that you, too, are against the repeal of the federal income tax. Welcome to the Democratic Party.

If you happen to buy something that's a bit too nice for your plebeian hands to touch, your local government will levy a property tax on that, too--meaning that the car you just paid 30% extra for will still be subject to addition taxation.

What stops them from doing that now?

Read the thread, conservatard. Nothing is stopping any entity from doing that, and it's exactly what the thread states--the Fair Tax Act DOES NOT ADDRESS local property taxes.

You first 5 posts were such nonsense.
That 5 post C&P was a bunch of left wing nonsense.
Hey...I have an idea. If you like high taxes so much, write a check.

 

[thereisnospoon]

I think you mean "African-American," bigot.

You really are one stupid ****. You don't even know what the "black market" is, do you? Here's a hint, it's not a grocery store where black people shop, you witless dung heap.

They're called African-Americans, bigot.

And of course I know what that term means. It's a racist euphemism used to refer to a place where stolen or illegal goods are sold, so named because African-Americans were alleged to be the sellers and main buyers at such places.

And you conservatards thought my degree in African-American History was useless. No, bigots, I'm wise to your discriminatory ways. I don't let even the most subtle racism slide.

Trust me...Your degree IS useless. Useless as tits on a bull.
And moron....It's called the black market because the perception of this type of commerce is done "under the cover of darkness"..
So please, spare us your hypersensitive there's a racist under every piece of furniture politically correct horseshit.

I really don't give a **** what your far left wing moon bat self hating Caucasian professors told you. You did not get an education. You were indoctrinated by the opinions of from leftists who are out of touch with the real world.

 

[thereisnospoon]

They're called African-Americans, bigot.

And of course I know what that term means. It's a racist euphemism used to refer to a place where stolen or illegal goods are sold, so named because African-Americans were alleged to be the sellers and main buyers at such places.

And you conservatards thought my degree in African-American History was useless. No, bigots, I'm wise to your discriminatory ways. I don't let even the most subtle racism slide.

There isn't the slightest thing racist about it, you witless ****. It's called "black" because it's hidden. It's in the dark. Economists have been using the term for centuries, and the still use it full view of hundreds of students in universities all over the country.

Economics is racist.



Extremely. African-American Friday is another part of racist lore, and refers to the day when prices are lowered so African-Americans, being poor, can afford to actually buy something rather than stealing it.



A plain English translation: "Making money off of African-American slave labor, what a great thing!"



Why does the mark have to be African-American?



This refers to more racist folklore which held that, in the early days of electricity, African-Americans would attempt to break into any houses with electric lights, given that to afford such expensive new technology the (white) family inside must be rich. The full phrase was originally, "Shut the lights off, there's an African-American out on the loose!" This has, in present times, been shortened to the quick warning given from one racist to another, "African-American out!"



The term "African-American sheep" refers to someone strange and different. It is racist to its very core, as it implies that there is something inherently wrong with being African-American.



Another inherently racist term, as it implies that an "African-American day" is a bad or saddening one.

"The pot calling the kettle black?"

Again, this implies that African-American is a negative term. "The pot calling the kettle African-American" originated from a fairy tale created by racist whites, proud of their porcelain skin. In the story, a sentient porcelain pot calls a self-aware cast-iron kettle "African-American" as an insult, explaining that because it was a darker color than the pot, the kettle must do all of the work in boiling water for cooking.

It's hard to believe anyone could be as stupid as you.

Tragically, it's very easy to believe that there are, in fact, many people as racist as you are. Racists walk among us in our everyday lives, but I've become very adept at spotting and outing them. I'm a social justice warrior and I won't stop calling out bigots like you until the scourge of racism is finally eliminated in our society.

I got your number. You just post here to piss off people.
You are a ******* troll.
Go chomp carpet somewhere else.
Yer gonna be out of here pretty quick anyway. So you may as well bow out ungracefully.

 

[bripat9643]

A sales tax, without exemptions or deductions or any other carve-outs, is the most transparent of all taxes.

It is also the most fair once you eliminate the regressive nature of it with prebates.

It is also the one which is the hardest to evade.

What's not to like?

It doesn't get rid of the IRS, and it doesn't eliminate the thousands upon thousands of pages of regulations that businesses must comply with when they report their income.

Any plan that doesn't abolish the income tax is a non-starter. It's pointless.

It's a sales tax, it's a tax on revenue, what are you talking about regarding it not getting rid of thousands of pages of regulations? How many pages does it take to say, "charge X percent of sales"...

The flat tax doesn't get rid of 80,000 pages of IRS regulations. The FAIR tax does. That's why I support it.

 

[thereisnospoon]

Why do liberal elitists use insulting speech patterns to try to make an obscure political point? Because it's all the pathetic left wing has left?

Why do conservatards never address the actual substance of a thread? Because you know nothing about political topics and refuse to learn?

The thread is stupid.
we're here to help point that out to you.

 

[bripat9643]

[MENTION=29100]bripat9643[/MENTION]

If you are poor, your prebate will make up for any Fair Tax you pay each month. You may even come out ahead.

A 30 percent tax on consumption is superior to a 30 percent tax on production (which is what an income tax is). You can pay 30 percent at the register for your purchases, or 30 percent on April 15 on your total income.

However, every economist will tell you that consumption taxes are superior to taxes on production.


The biggest problem I have with the Fair Tax is that it is inevitable it will be corrupted just the same as the income tax has been corrupted. Politicians will receive large campaign contributions for putting carve-outs in the Fair Tax code. The dairy industry will get exemptions for milk, and things will rapidly be destroyed from there. Corruption by increments.

There isn't a tax scheme in the world which will ever succeed so long as politicians have the power to make carve-outs, exemptions, deductions, etc.

So before you reform taxes, you first must reform the power our politicians have.

The evidence that you're wrong is the fact that virtually every state in the union has a sales tax, but state governments haven't engaged in the kind of "carve outs" that you describe. A few have exceptions for food, but that's about it. the voters simply aren't going to tolerate granting exemptions to every retail product under the sun.

Bullshit. You should check before you speak.

Here is a list of sales tax exemptions for the state of Washington:

82.08.900 Anaerobic digesters for dairies
82.08.920 Bedding materials for chickens
82.08.0259 Breeding livestock and cattle
82.04.213 Christmas tree production
82.08.865 Diesel fuel used on farms
82.08.0257 Farm auction sales
82.04.050(3e) Farm horticultural services
82.08.02745 Farm-worker housing
82.04.050(9) Feed and seed
82.04.050(9) Fertilizer and chemical spray
82.08.0294 Fish feed for aquaculture
82.08.910 Gas to heat chicken barns
82.08.0311 Horticultural packing materials
82.08.0288 Leased irrigation equipment
82.08.0296 Livestock feed
82.08.890 Livestock nutrient management
82.08.880 Medicine for livestock
82.08.855 Parts for farm machinery
82.08.0277 Pollen
82.04.050(9) Pollination agents
82.08.0267 Poultry used in production
82.08.0272 Semen, artifical insemination
Producer Goods
Rule Subject
82.08.810 Air pollution control facilities
82.08.975 Airplane computer costs
82.08.980 Airplane facilities, port property
82.08.02568 Anodes/cathodes, aluminum
82.12.0265 Bailed equipment for R&D
82.12.800 Boats used by manuf./dealers
82.08.811 Coal, thermal generating plants
82.08.806 Computers, printers/publishers
82.12.0272 Display items for trade shows
82.08.955 Distribution of biodiesel fuels
82.12.0263 Extracted fuel
82.04.050(1d) Ferrosilicon
82.08.0315 Film & video production equip.
82.08.0298 Fishing boat fuel
82.08.0274 Form lumber
82.08.02565 Manufacturing machinery
82.08.026 Natural & manufactured gas
82.08.02566 Prototypes of aircraft parts
82.08.805 Purchases, aluminum smelters
82.08.965 Semiconductor materials
82.08.970 Semiconductors, gases/chem.
82.08.9651 Semiconductors, gases/chem.
82.12.010(1) Use tax on rental value
82.08.820 Warehouses, tax remittance
Interstate Sales
Rule Subject
82.08.0269 Alaska & Hawaii purchases
82.08.0266 Boats sold to nonresidents
82.08.700 Boats, in-state use permit
82.08.0254 Constitutionally exempt sales
82.08.850 Exported conifer seedings
82.08.0268 Farm equip. for nonresidents
82.08.990 Import/export shipments
82.08.0263 Interstate commerce vehicles
82.08.0262 Interstate transportation equip.
82.08.0261 Items used in interstate comm.
82.12.0251 Nonresidents' pers. property
82.08.0279 Nonresidents' rental cars
82.08.0265 Repaired items for nonresidents
82.08.0273 Sales to qualified nonresidents
82.08.050(7) Sellers with limited connection
82.08.0255(2) Special fuel
82.12.0266 Vehicles acquired in military
82.08.0264 Vehicles sold to nonresidents
82.12.0254 Vehicles used in commerce
Public Activities
Rule Subject
82.08.0278 Annexation sales
82.08.0316 Cigarettes, tribal contracts
82.12.0284 Computers donated to schools
82.08.02525 Copies of public records
82.12.02595 Donations to nonprofits/govt.
82.12.0264 Driver training vehicles
82.08.0285 Ferry boats
82.08.02875 Football stadium parking
82.08.0255(1a,c) Fuel for urban transit
82.08.02569 Gravitational wave observatory
82.08.02915 Housing for youth in crisis
82.04.050(10) Labor, Federal govt. structures
82.04.050(8) Labor, local road construction
82.08.0299 Lodging for homeless persons
82.08.870 Motorcycles, rider training
82.08.995 Public development authorities
82.08.0256 Public utility property
82.08.0287 Ride-sharing vehicles
82.04.050(11) RTA maintenance agreements
82.08.834 Sale/leasebacks for RTA
82.08.0275 Sand/gravel, local road const.
82.08.0271 Watershed & flood protection
Health-Related Purchases
Rule Subject
82.08.02805 Blood and tissue banks
82.08.808 Comprehensive cancer centers
82.08.925 Dietary supplements
82.08.935 Drug delivery systems
82.08.02795 Free public hospitals
82.04.050(2a) Hospital laundry service
82.08.02806 Human body parts
82.08.985 Insulin
82.08.945 Kidney dialysis equipment
82.08.0283 Medical devices, oxygen
82.08.803 Nebulizers
82.08.02807 Organ procurement
82.08.804 Ostomic items
82.08.940 Over-the-counter drugs
82.08.0281 Prescription drugs
Deferrals & Credits
Rule Subject
47.46.060 2nd Narrows bridge
36.100.090 Baseball stadium deferral
82.75.030 Biotechnology investments
82.08.037 Credit for bad debts
82.12.035 Credit, tax paid to other states
36.102.070 Football stadium deferral
82.74.030 Fruit/vegetable processing
82.63.030 High technology deferral
82.66.040 Horse race track deferral
82.32.580 Museum for historic autos
82.34.050(2) Pollution control credit
82.60.040 Rural county deferral
82.32.760(1,b) Sales tax sourcing costs
82.32.065 Vehicles under warranty
Other Sales/Use Tax Exemptions
Rule Subject
82.08.02537 Academic transcripts
82.08.815 Alt. power for diesel trucks
82.08.809 Alternative fuel vehicles
82.08.031 Arts & cultural organizations
82.08.0251 Casual sales
82.08.036 Core deposits & tire fees
82.12.860 Credit unions - conversion
82.04.050(6) Custom computer software
82.08.825 Diesel trucks/receive alt. power
82.08.807 Direct mail delivery charges
82.08.950 Electricity and steam
82.08.0293 Food and food ingredients
82.08.0297 Food stamp purchases
82.08.02535 Fund-raising sales, magazines
82.08.02573 Fund-raising, nonprofit org.
82.08.832 Gun safes
82.04.050(2d) Janitorial services
82.08.0289 Local home telephone service
82.14.450(3) Local public safety tax; vehicles
82.14.430 Local regional transp., vehicles
82.14.410 Local sales tax cap for lodging
82.08.0255(1d) Motor vehicle and special fuel
82.08.0253 Newspapers
82.08.830 Nonprofit camps/conf. centers
82.04.050 Personal & prof. services
82.04.062 Precious metals & bullion
82.08.0258 Red Cross
82.08.0282 Returnable containers
82.04.050(2a) Self-service laundries
82.08.010(1) Trade-ins
82.04.050(3e) Tree trimming, power lines
82.08.034 Used floating homes
82.08.033 Used mobile homes
82.08.032 Used park-model trailers
82.08.0291 Youth recreation/phys. fitness

No sales tax on semen! Woo hoo!

That's more than I thought there were, but the IRS code has 80,000 pages. Your list comes to, what, two pages?

 

[thereisnospoon]

So long as the 16th is repealed, where's the "insanity?" It's much smarter to tax consumption that to tax earning. It's also far simpler. The FAIR tax would make all the special exemptions we have in the current code a lot more difficult.

It would also make living a lot more difficult. The richest Americans got that way by moving enormous piles of money around via capital-intensive investments; as their piles of money accumulate more millions and billions, their consumption as a percentage of their income drops drastically. Do you truly believe it is fair to only tax based on consumption, and not ability to pay? Is such a massive spike in the cost of food, gasoline, and healthcare really the best option for funding the government?

The "equity quotient" is the issue with a consumption tax, you are correct. It would fall the heaviest on those who could least afford it. That is why it would likely be among the worst options; on par with the enumeration tax of old.

I disagree. I believe the notion of sales or consumption taxes being regressive is false.
Quite the opposite.
Quite simply put, the more one earns, the more one spends. And the more they spend, the higher the burden of taxation.
So if one earns $50 k per year spends $10k annually for consumables. and the tax is 20%, that person paid $2k in consumption taxes. Now let's look at one who makes $150K per year. Theoretically, that person would spend three times as much as the one illustrated above. Therefore in this example, that higher income person would realize a tax burden three times the lower income person.

 

[kaz]

It doesn't get rid of the IRS, and it doesn't eliminate the thousands upon thousands of pages of regulations that businesses must comply with when they report their income.

Any plan that doesn't abolish the income tax is a non-starter. It's pointless.

It's a sales tax, it's a tax on revenue, what are you talking about regarding it not getting rid of thousands of pages of regulations? How many pages does it take to say, "charge X percent of sales"...

The flat tax doesn't get rid of 80,000 pages of IRS regulations. The FAIR tax does. That's why I support it.

Gotcha, sorry, my bad. I thought you were talking about the Fair Tax. We're in agreement.

 

[LiberalMedia]

It would also make living a lot more difficult. The richest Americans got that way by moving enormous piles of money around via capital-intensive investments; as their piles of money accumulate more millions and billions, their consumption as a percentage of their income drops drastically. Do you truly believe it is fair to only tax based on consumption, and not ability to pay? Is such a massive spike in the cost of food, gasoline, and healthcare really the best option for funding the government?

The "equity quotient" is the issue with a consumption tax, you are correct. It would fall the heaviest on those who could least afford it. That is why it would likely be among the worst options; on par with the enumeration tax of old.

I disagree. I believe the notion of sales or consumption taxes being regressive is false.
Quite the opposite.
Quite simply put, the more one earns, the more one spends. And the more they spend, the higher the burden of taxation.
So if one earns $50 k per year spends $10k annually for consumables. and the tax is 20%, that person paid $2k in consumption taxes. Now let's look at one who makes $150K per year. Theoretically, that person would spend three times as much as the one illustrated above. Therefore in this example, that higher income person would realize a tax burden three times the lower income person.

So you think that some corporate attorney, oozing with white privilege, who makes $200,000 a year would eat $40,000 worth of food? Ridiculous.

Consumption DOES NOT necessarily increase with income. Right-wing extremists like Bill Gates, Warren Buffett, and the Waltons don't spend the same percentage of their income on food, utilities, and other necessities as some poor African-American youth living in poverty.

 

[kaz]

So you think that some corporate attorney, oozing with white privilege, who makes $200,000 a year would eat $40,000 worth of food? Ridiculous.

Consumption DOES NOT necessarily increase with income. Right-wing extremists like Bill Gates, Warren Buffett, and the Waltons don't spend the same percentage of their income on food, utilities, and other necessities as some poor African-American youth living in poverty.

Damn, we know you don't make any money. Want to trade grocery bills since you think ours are the same?

 

[thereisnospoon]

Im not a fan of the fair tax, which will substitute one bureucracy and set of rules for another. I prefer the flat tax, which simply involves a modification of what we have. First 30k is exempt, after that it's 12% on every dollar earned, no matter the source. No deductions. Just like in 1913 you could put your return on a post card and send it in. I'd also support ending payroll withholding for income taxes. April 15th everyone writes a check. That would induce some fiscal discipline as people would understand politicians are spending their money, not giving them something.

The howls odf protest from the uninformed would be deafening.
" I WAS COUNTING ON MY REFUND!!!!!!!"
"WHAT DO YOU MEAN I DON'T GET A REFUND!!!!!!!!"

 

[M.D. Rawlings]

No, it is not. Perhaps you should study some economics before making such a boneheaded mistake.

Oh? Really? How about the economic and social benefits? I guess their nonexistent. And, indeed, your notion is the subjective meanderings of the zero-sum-game myth.

Quite right; the economic and social benefits of taxing the poor literally to death are nonexistent. I'm glad you have the sense to admit that.

Alternatively, if my suspicions of sarcasm in your post are correct, you may want to look up the definition of the term "regressive," as I do not think it means what you think it means.

Yeah. Right. You might want to note the fact that I don't support the so-called fair tax at all, and that my point goes to the supposed regressive nature of mortgage interest rate and charitable deductions.

You need to look up the terms zero-sum game and supply-side economics. Then get back me, Ms. Y, so I can spank your clueless ass again.

 

[g5000]

That's more than I thought there were, but the IRS code has 80,000 pages. Your list comes to, what, two pages?

You are conflating the whole tax code with sales tax exemptions now!

Here are Washington state's tax codes if you want to count their pages. They go several layers deep, so it will take you a day or two:

http://apps.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?Cite=82

http://apps.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?Cite=83

http://apps.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?Cite=84