For all you Wrongpublicans supporting the 'Fair Tax'

[ThoughtCrimes]

I know what a direct tax is, what an indirect tax is and what differentiates the two:
If a tax is the final burden of the tax-payer, it is a direct tax.
If the final burden of a tax is shifted to the consumer, it is an indirect tax.

The IRS defines the two as such:
direct tax -A tax that cannot be shifted to others, such as the federal income tax.
indirect tax - A tax that can be shifted to others, such as business property taxes.

Therefore, the Fair tax is an indirect tax, because the total burden of the taxes are shifted to the consumer. If you and Bripat have an issue with that, perhaps you both should inform the IRS they are in error!

Income taxes are generated only when there are financial transactions. Your employer sells products, so they have to hire you to do the work. Your income and your income taxes are baked into the price of the products they sell. You cannot have income unless products are sold. They can sell products without paying you income by automating, outsourcing, etc.

So no, the income tax is the indirect tax, the sale is the direct tax.

Think about the irony that in using the income tax as a "direct" tax, you are actually harming income earners by pegging them with the tax bill and letting off the hook:

- Foreign competitors who hire labor offshore

- US companies that move production offshore

- Companies that automate and reduce staffing

- People who work in cashless transactions and don't declare their income

- People who cheat on their taxes.

The fair tax makes all of them equal taxpayers. You screw honest, hard working, law abiding citizens by sticking them with the entire tab.

IRS definitions:
direct tax -A tax that cannot be shifted to others, such as the federal income tax.
indirect tax - A tax that can be shifted to others, such as business property taxes.

Direct tax:
19 CFR 351.509 - DIRECT TAXES
§ 351.509 Direct taxes.
(a) Benefit—
(1) Exemption or remission of taxes. In the case of a program that provides for a full or partial exemption or remission of a direct tax (e.g., an income tax), [emphasis added, sic] or a reduction in the base used to calculate a direct tax, a benefit exists to the extent that the tax paid by a firm as a result of the program is less than the tax the firm would have paid in the absence of the program.
Authority:
19 U.S. Code §§ 1202, 1303, 1671, 1671 (a-h), 3538

Indirect taxes:
19 CFR 351.510 - INDIRECT TAXES AND IMPORT CHARGES
§ 351.510 Indirect taxes and import charges (other than export programs).
(a) Benefit—
(1) Exemption or remission of taxes. In the case of a program, other than an export program, that provides for the full or partial exemption or remission of an indirect tax [emphasis added, sic] or an import charge, a benefit exists to the extent that the taxes or import charges paid by a firm as a result of the program are less than the taxes the firm would have paid in the absence of the program.
Authority:
19 U.S. Code §§ 1202, 1303, 1671, 1671 (a-h), 3538

U.S Constitution:
Article I Sec 8:
The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts and excises, to pay the debts and provide for the common defense and general welfare of the United States; but all duties, imposts and excises shall be uniform [emphasis added, sic] throughout the United States;

SCOTUS:
Pollock v. Farmers' Loan and Trust Company (No. 898)
Decided: April 8, 1895
In Justice Fuller's Opinion of the Court:
"The first question to be considered is whether a tax on the rents or income of real estate is a direct tax within the meaning of the Constitution. Ordinarily, all taxes paid primarily by persons who can shift the burden upon someone else, or who are under no legal compulsion to pay them, are considered indirect taxes; but a tax upon property holders in respect of their estates, whether real or personal, or of the income yielded by such estates, and the payment of which cannot be avoided, are direct taxes." [emphasis added]

Your collective assertions are constructs of your own imagination and have no bearing on the legal applicability of the Fair Tax legislation being discussed! If you believe you know more about those two forms of taxation than the IRS, Congress, SCOTUS and the Framers of the Constitution, then you are clearly delusional! I am left shaking my head in disbelief of your ignorance and hubris!

 

[IlarMeilyr]

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USE the term "wrongpublicans" in a post at USMB TODAY. You will not only WIN every "debate" you are in, here, but you will ALSO win the entire interwebs.

This message has been confirmed by the LiberalMedia!

 

[RKMBrown]

I know what a direct tax is, what an indirect tax is and what differentiates the two:
If a tax is the final burden of the tax-payer, it is a direct tax.
If the final burden of a tax is shifted to the consumer, it is an indirect tax.

The IRS defines the two as such:
direct tax -A tax that cannot be shifted to others, such as the federal income tax.
indirect tax - A tax that can be shifted to others, such as business property taxes.

Therefore, the Fair tax is an indirect tax, because the total burden of the taxes are shifted to the consumer. If you and Bripat have an issue with that, perhaps you both should inform the IRS they are in error!

ROFL... yeah cause we all know a person that pays income tax can't be a business owner that can shift the burden of his personal income taxes onto his customers. Further, we all know an owner with a fixed income can shift the cost of a new business property tax by asking his customer to renegotiate the non-negotiable contract. ROFL Don't believe everything you read.

IRS definitions:
direct tax -A tax that cannot be shifted to others, such as the federal income tax.
indirect tax - A tax that can be shifted to others, such as business property taxes.

Direct tax:
19 CFR 351.509 - DIRECT TAXES
§ 351.509 Direct taxes.
(a) Benefit—
(1) Exemption or remission of taxes. In the case of a program that provides for a full or partial exemption or remission of a direct tax (e.g., an income tax), [emphasis added, sic] or a reduction in the base used to calculate a direct tax, a benefit exists to the extent that the tax paid by a firm as a result of the program is less than the tax the firm would have paid in the absence of the program.
Authority:
19 U.S. Code §§ 1202, 1303, 1671, 1671 (a-h), 3538

Indirect taxes:
19 CFR 351.510 - INDIRECT TAXES AND IMPORT CHARGES
§ 351.510 Indirect taxes and import charges (other than export programs).
(a) Benefit—
(1) Exemption or remission of taxes. In the case of a program, other than an export program, that provides for the full or partial exemption or remission of an indirect tax [emphasis added, sic] or an import charge, a benefit exists to the extent that the taxes or import charges paid by a firm as a result of the program are less than the taxes the firm would have paid in the absence of the program.
Authority:
19 U.S. Code §§ 1202, 1303, 1671, 1671 (a-h), 3538

U.S Constitution:
Article I Sec 8:
The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts and excises, to pay the debts and provide for the common defense and general welfare of the United States; but all duties, imposts and excises shall be uniform [emphasis added, sic] throughout the United States;

SCOTUS:
Pollock v. Farmers' Loan and Trust Company (No. 898)
Decided: April 8, 1895
In Justice Fuller's Opinion of the Court:
"The first question to be considered is whether a tax on the rents or income of real estate is a direct tax within the meaning of the Constitution. Ordinarily, all taxes paid primarily by persons who can shift the burden upon someone else, or who are under no legal compulsion to pay them, are considered indirect taxes; but a tax upon property holders in respect of their estates, whether real or personal, or of the income yielded by such estates, and the payment of which cannot be avoided, are direct taxes." [emphasis added]

Well Pilgrim, your round the bend assertion is that you are more knowledgeable than the IRS, Congress, SCOTUS and the Framers of the Constitution with your "laughing fit" pseudo argument regarding your impressions of the two types of taxation and disregard of the actual definitions. Should I be impressed with your IMPLIED tribal knowledge? NAW, I'll just shake my head in disbelief of your ignorance and hubris!

Were you born stupid? What part of I can charge my customers whatever the effing hell I want confused you? What part of, as a business owner I can decide to double my salary on my customers backs by raising prices to my customers if my customers vote for a business tax increase, confused you?

 

[ThoughtCrimes]

ROFL... yeah cause we all know a person that pays income tax can't be a business owner that can shift the burden of his personal income taxes onto his customers. Further, we all know an owner with a fixed income can shift the cost of a new business property tax by asking his customer to renegotiate the non-negotiable contract. ROFL Don't believe everything you read.

IRS definitions:
direct tax -A tax that cannot be shifted to others, such as the federal income tax.
indirect tax - A tax that can be shifted to others, such as business property taxes.

Direct tax:
19 CFR 351.509 - DIRECT TAXES
§ 351.509 Direct taxes.
(a) Benefit—
(1) Exemption or remission of taxes. In the case of a program that provides for a full or partial exemption or remission of a direct tax (e.g., an income tax), [emphasis added, sic] or a reduction in the base used to calculate a direct tax, a benefit exists to the extent that the tax paid by a firm as a result of the program is less than the tax the firm would have paid in the absence of the program.
Authority:
19 U.S. Code §§ 1202, 1303, 1671, 1671 (a-h), 3538

Indirect taxes:
19 CFR 351.510 - INDIRECT TAXES AND IMPORT CHARGES
§ 351.510 Indirect taxes and import charges (other than export programs).
(a) Benefit—
(1) Exemption or remission of taxes. In the case of a program, other than an export program, that provides for the full or partial exemption or remission of an indirect tax [emphasis added, sic] or an import charge, a benefit exists to the extent that the taxes or import charges paid by a firm as a result of the program are less than the taxes the firm would have paid in the absence of the program.
Authority:
19 U.S. Code §§ 1202, 1303, 1671, 1671 (a-h), 3538

U.S Constitution:
Article I Sec 8:
The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts and excises, to pay the debts and provide for the common defense and general welfare of the United States; but all duties, imposts and excises shall be uniform [emphasis added, sic] throughout the United States;

SCOTUS:
Pollock v. Farmers' Loan and Trust Company (No. 898)
Decided: April 8, 1895
In Justice Fuller's Opinion of the Court:
"The first question to be considered is whether a tax on the rents or income of real estate is a direct tax within the meaning of the Constitution. Ordinarily, all taxes paid primarily by persons who can shift the burden upon someone else, or who are under no legal compulsion to pay them, are considered indirect taxes; but a tax upon property holders in respect of their estates, whether real or personal, or of the income yielded by such estates, and the payment of which cannot be avoided, are direct taxes." [emphasis added]

Well Pilgrim, your round the bend assertion is that you are more knowledgeable than the IRS, Congress, SCOTUS and the Framers of the Constitution with your "laughing fit" pseudo argument regarding your impressions of the two types of taxation and disregard of the actual definitions. Should I be impressed with your IMPLIED tribal knowledge? NAW, I'll just shake my head in disbelief of your ignorance and hubris!

Were you born stupid? What part of I can charge my customers whatever the effing hell I want confused you? What part of, as a business owner I can decide to double my salary on my customers backs by raising prices to my customers if my customers vote for a business tax increase, confused you?

LOL! What does that rant have to do with the price of potatoes? At least try to address the topic and the post made to you! Too much sand in your Levis there, Pilgrim?

 

[RKMBrown]

IRS definitions:
direct tax -A tax that cannot be shifted to others, such as the federal income tax.
indirect tax - A tax that can be shifted to others, such as business property taxes.

Direct tax:
19 CFR 351.509 - DIRECT TAXES
§ 351.509 Direct taxes.
(a) Benefit—
(1) Exemption or remission of taxes. In the case of a program that provides for a full or partial exemption or remission of a direct tax (e.g., an income tax), [emphasis added, sic] or a reduction in the base used to calculate a direct tax, a benefit exists to the extent that the tax paid by a firm as a result of the program is less than the tax the firm would have paid in the absence of the program.
Authority:
19 U.S. Code §§ 1202, 1303, 1671, 1671 (a-h), 3538

Indirect taxes:
19 CFR 351.510 - INDIRECT TAXES AND IMPORT CHARGES
§ 351.510 Indirect taxes and import charges (other than export programs).
(a) Benefit—
(1) Exemption or remission of taxes. In the case of a program, other than an export program, that provides for the full or partial exemption or remission of an indirect tax [emphasis added, sic] or an import charge, a benefit exists to the extent that the taxes or import charges paid by a firm as a result of the program are less than the taxes the firm would have paid in the absence of the program.
Authority:
19 U.S. Code §§ 1202, 1303, 1671, 1671 (a-h), 3538

U.S Constitution:
Article I Sec 8:
The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts and excises, to pay the debts and provide for the common defense and general welfare of the United States; but all duties, imposts and excises shall be uniform [emphasis added, sic] throughout the United States;

SCOTUS:
Pollock v. Farmers' Loan and Trust Company (No. 898)
Decided: April 8, 1895
In Justice Fuller's Opinion of the Court:
"The first question to be considered is whether a tax on the rents or income of real estate is a direct tax within the meaning of the Constitution. Ordinarily, all taxes paid primarily by persons who can shift the burden upon someone else, or who are under no legal compulsion to pay them, are considered indirect taxes; but a tax upon property holders in respect of their estates, whether real or personal, or of the income yielded by such estates, and the payment of which cannot be avoided, are direct taxes." [emphasis added]

Well Pilgrim, your round the bend assertion is that you are more knowledgeable than the IRS, Congress, SCOTUS and the Framers of the Constitution with your "laughing fit" pseudo argument regarding your impressions of the two types of taxation and disregard of the actual definitions. Should I be impressed with your IMPLIED tribal knowledge? NAW, I'll just shake my head in disbelief of your ignorance and hubris!

Were you born stupid? What part of I can charge my customers whatever the effing hell I want confused you? What part of, as a business owner I can decide to double my salary on my customers backs by raising prices to my customers if my customers vote for a business tax increase, confused you?

LOL! What does that rant have to do with the price of potatoes? At least try to address the topic and the post made to you! Too much sand in your Levis there, Pilgrim?

You replied to my post and ignored the point I made.

 

[ThoughtCrimes]

Were you born stupid? What part of I can charge my customers whatever the effing hell I want confused you? What part of, as a business owner I can decide to double my salary on my customers backs by raising prices to my customers if my customers vote for a business tax increase, confused you?

LOL! What does that rant have to do with the price of potatoes? At least try to address the topic and the post made to you! Too much sand in your Levis there, Pilgrim?

You replied to my post and ignored the point I made.

LOL! you made no point...which was my point. You wouldn't know the difference between a direct and an indirect tax if the two introduced themselves to you and the three of you jumped into bed!

Those taxes are something real, differentiated and defined. You don't like the definitions and the way the Framers, IRS, Congress and the Supremes have established them, take it up with all four and tell them how fucked up they are!

Now ride off into the sunset Pilgrim...I don't enjoy embarrassing people in this manner, but you persisted!

 

[RKMBrown]

LOL! What does that rant have to do with the price of potatoes? At least try to address the topic and the post made to you! Too much sand in your Levis there, Pilgrim?

You replied to my post and ignored the point I made.

LOL! you made no point...which was my point. You wouldn't know the difference between a direct and an indirect tax if the two introduced themselves to you and the three of you jumped into bed!

Those taxes are something real, differentiated and defined. You don't like the definitions and the way the Framers, IRS, Congress and the Supremes have established them, take it up with all four and tell them how fucked up they are!

Now ride off into the sunset Pilgrim...I don't enjoy embarrassing people in this manner, but you persisted!

Humans are not taxes dumb ass.