For all you Wrongpublicans supporting the 'Fair Tax'

[IlarMeilyr]

A thread with the 3rd grade "Wrongpublicans" in the thread title BELONGS in the "Plitics" section. No doubt.

 

[kaz]

BINGO! You win the Prize of the day!

Hmmm, . . . those are arguments in favor of the FAIR tax, Bozo.

Obviously, she was either really all screwed up or she was talking to the fair tax. Look at the red highlighted clause of which I made note. Which is a direct tax and which is an indirect tax.

The flat tax is a direct tax and the fair tax is an indirect tax. Or do you really want to argue that!

Wrong, it's the reverse. Bripat is correct. Our economy is the sum of all financial transactions. The Fair Tax is a direct tax on that. The income tax is an indirect tax regardless of whether it is flat or not.

Consider two companies. Both of them make a widget for $100 and sell it for $200. Company A has labor costs of $25 in one widget, Company B automated and produces a widget with $10 in labor. Unfortunately for them, they suck at other things and don't save overall money.

So, with a flat tax, Company A pays tax on $25 per item sold and company B pays tax on $10 per item sold. Think about that, you hire less employees and automate, the government pays you to do that by reducing your taxes. By charging on revenue, both companies pay the same tax. Government is not disincenting labor.

 

[kaz]

Let's say I earn $50,000 and I am taxed 25%. So the amount of money I get to keep is $37,500.

Let's say I am able to save $5,000 of that for my retirement.

Then one day, the income tax goes away and the Fair Tax is implemented.

When I go to buy something in my retirement with my $5,000, I have to pay a 30% Fair Tax.

My money has now been taxed twice. Once at 25%, and then again at 30%.

If the Fair Tax is never implemented, then my money is only taxed the one time, at 25%.

Now do you see the problem?

Yeah, the problem is you retired

No, the problem is I saved some money and then it was double taxed when I spent it due to the transition to the Fair Tax.

No one has presented an actual solution to this problem.

If you are paying double tax with the Fair Tax, you were anyway

 

[RKMBrown]

Yeah, the problem is you retired

I agree that's the problem with switching from sales to income... it helps the folks that have assets they horded and the ones that don't work anymore, but then you can't switch back to sales without hurting cash hoarders and retirees who feel they are done being a slave to the state.

One way to fix that would be for people who are currently working to all quit and go on welfare thus putting the onus on paying the tab to the people who have assets we can take. hehe

If you buy products and services today, you are paying my employees income taxes, my business taxes, my business property taxes and all other taxes except the death tax. If we replace those taxes you are paying today with a flat tax on revenue that equals exactly those taxes, explain what that has to do with taxes you paid yesterday either way.

And if you paid income tax yesterday then have to turn around and pay sales tax tomorrow with the money that you already paid income tax from you just paid two times for the same thing. With the fair tax system the only way to come out ahead if you have a large amount of liquid assets that you already paid taxes on, is to convert your liquid assets to sales taxable items just prior to the switch over .. otherwise you will have wasted your money as it's going to uncle sam. You can argue prices are gonna come down till you are blue in your face.. my expectation is no change in prices... payroll stays the same and you spend the extra money you have just paying taxes. Though people will see the taxes every day and possibly ***** about taxes more and feel they are invested in lowering government expenditures that don't end up in their pocket.. Thus no change whatsoever.

The only tangible benefit with be promoting more production (hours) for wages and less spending... more investing to make those extra wages earn something. Course the Democrats will FREAK OUT and be SCREAMING for reams of new welfare programs to fix it so no one needs to work. See the prebate bull shit with the free tax. Not even out the door and they want checks for welfare.

 

[RKMBrown]

Yeah, the problem is you retired

No, the problem is I saved some money and then it was double taxed when I spent it due to the transition to the Fair Tax.

No one has presented an actual solution to this problem.

If you are paying double tax with the Fair Tax, you were anyway

You are not paying attn.

You are wrong.

Moving income tax to sales tax does not decrease the price of goods or services. It increases the cost of goods and services that are taxed, the theory is that your additional income is supposed to cover it. You are pretending that the people who already paid taxes had to pay the same tax again any way in the form of price fixing to pay payroll. But you are assuming then that the payrolls will go down so the price of products can go down. But that won't happen because the people need the income to pay for the sales tax... duh...

 

[francoHFW]

The major point of tax reform should be to lower the taxes and fees on the nonrich and small companies, and to tax the rich and big corporations their fair share. Flat taxes are not fair.

At the moment, if you count ALL taxes and fees, the richest pay the LEAST percentage wise- same goes for big corporations- a conspiracy of a-hole Pubs and brainwashed dupes...

http://factleft.com/2010/06/23/why-corporations-and-the-rich-pay-so-few-taxes/

 

[RKMBrown]

The major point of tax reform should be to lower the taxes and fees on the nonrich and small companies, and to tax the rich and big corporations their fair share. Flat taxes are not fair.

At the moment, if you count ALL taxes and fees, the richest pay the LEAST percentage wise- same goes for big corporations- a conspiracy of a-hole Pubs and brainwashed dupes...

Wrong. The rich pay more than the poor. Duh. You just think the rich should pay your share cause they have more, and well you can't afford to pull your own weight as a man because you are a girlie boy.

 

[francoHFW]

The major point of tax reform should be to lower the taxes and fees on the nonrich and small companies, and to tax the rich and big corporations their fair share. Flat taxes are not fair.

At the moment, if you count ALL taxes and fees, the richest pay the LEAST percentage wise- same goes for big corporations- a conspiracy of a-hole Pubs and brainwashed dupes...

Wrong. The rich pay more than the poor. Duh. You just think the rich should pay your share cause they have more, and well you can't afford to pull your own weight as a man because you are a girlie boy.

You are a brainwashed, ignorant chump. I am a retired teacher, 6'4", 215. Idiot lol

Why Corporations and the Rich Pay So Few Taxes? | Fact Left

Read something FACTUAL. MORON.

 

[bripat9643]

Except g5000's post didn't address your "hurr durr tax code too long, me no like reading, me want throw tax code away" argument, he addressed your "A few have exceptions for food, but that's about it" claim, and he completely blew it out of the water. The idea that sales taxes are tamper-proofed from corporate shills seeking to do their campaign contributors special favors is completely bogus. Literally every single state that levies a sales tax has exemptions for select products.

You say that like exempting food products from sales tax is evil.

Why don't you just come out and admit you are just an ignorant turd.

Or perhaps you can explain how some States have income tax and others don't, yet we're doing just fine with or without it. You seem to have this belief that life is better with slave tax, aka labor tax, and without your slave tax the world is gonna stop turning. Were you born a slave, or is this something that has been whipped into your psyche?

The problem with exemptions is that they provide opportunities for rent seeking, graft, corruption, and regulatory capture.

Lesson #1: Dog Food and The Small Bra Tax


However, wait until the folks at the IRS get their hands on the regulations for the application of the new tax. They will undoubtedly turn to their more experienced British counterparts for guidance.

"Food of the kind used for human consumption," to a British bureaucrat, is something "the average person, knowing what it is and how it is used, would consider it to be food or drink; and it is fit for human consumption. . . . The term includes . . . products like flour, which, although not eaten by themselves, are generally recognized food ingredients . . . [but] would not usually include . . . dietary supplements, food additives and similar products, which, although edible, are not generally regarded as food."

And so, in the United Kingdom, according to the regulations of Her Majesty's Inland Revenue Service, crackers made from tapioca starch carry no tax; prawn crackers made from cereals do. Frozen yogurt that needs to be thawed before eating is zero rated, frozen yogurt bears the tax. Get it? If you don't, too bad—Her Majesty's tax collectors are not in the habit of offering an explanation for their regulations.

Food for animals creates other problems. If it is "suitable for all breeds" it is taxed, but if "it is held out for sale exclusively for working dogs" it is not, unless, of course, "it is biscuit or meal," in which case it is taxed.

So dog food for "sheepdog breeds" is taxed, but dog food for "working sheep dogs of any breed" is not; food for greyhounds is taxed, food for "racing greyhounds" is not. This may be the only tax in Britain that favors work over leisure.

Clothing also presents a problem for the British tax man. Two problems, actually.

First, what is clothing? Well, sailors' lifejackets are clothing because they "have the form and function of clothing," but "buoyancy aids" are not. Second, since children's clothing is zero-rated, what fits into that category?

Bras up to and including size 34B; body stockings that measure no more than 27½ inches shoulder to crotch; babies' shawls but not "mother-and-baby shawls intended to wrap around both mother and child." There's more, lots more, but you get the idea.

This process of writing regulations for the VAT man when he cometh is more than merely amusing. For one thing, it confers enormous power on faceless bureaucrats

They can hand a competing product the advantage in the U.K. of a price 17.5% lower (in Sweden it's 25%) than a close substitute. That invites both lobbying and corruption and sheer, inexplicable arbitrariness. Get your "sweetened dried fruit" deemed to be "held out for sale as snacking and home baking" and your product will bear a tax and have to compete on grocers' shelves with zero-rated "sweetened dried fruit held out for sale as confectionary/snacking." Peddle your sandwiches "as a general grocery item" and consumers pay no tax, but offer them as "part of a buffet service" and the VAT man wants his 17.5%....



Irwin Stelzer: Small Bras and the Value-Added Tax - WSJ

The FAIR tax is not a VAT tax. It's akin to a sales tax. VAT taxes are hidden. No one really knows how much they are paying, which allows politicians to play all kinds of shenanigans with it, but the amount you pay in sales tax is stated right there on your receipt. We all know how a sales tax works, so what makes you believe the FAIR tax would be any different?

 

[RKMBrown]

The major point of tax reform should be to lower the taxes and fees on the nonrich and small companies, and to tax the rich and big corporations their fair share. Flat taxes are not fair.

At the moment, if you count ALL taxes and fees, the richest pay the LEAST percentage wise- same goes for big corporations- a conspiracy of a-hole Pubs and brainwashed dupes...

Wrong. The rich pay more than the poor. Duh. You just think the rich should pay your share cause they have more, and well you can't afford to pull your own weight as a man because you are a girlie boy.

You are a brainwashed, ignorant chump. I am a retired teacher, 6'4", 215. Idiot lol

Why Corporations and the Rich Pay So Few Taxes? | Fact Left

Read something FACTUAL. MORON.

So in your opinion a rich guy paying 100 million in taxes is less than you paying 5k in taxes. This because you deserve your income more than the rich guy right?

 

[bripat9643]

Let's say I earn $50,000 and I am taxed 25%. So the amount of money I get to keep is $37,500.

Let's say I am able to save $5,000 of that for my retirement.

Then one day, the income tax goes away and the Fair Tax is implemented.

When I go to buy something in my retirement with my $5,000, I have to pay a 30% Fair Tax.

My money has now been taxed twice. Once at 25%, and then again at 30%.

If the Fair Tax is never implemented, then my money is only taxed the one time, at 25%.

Now do you see the problem?

Yeah, the problem is you retired

No, the problem is I saved some money and then it was double taxed when I spent it due to the transition to the Fair Tax.

No one has presented an actual solution to this problem.

FAQS | FairTax.org

Are seniors taxed twice on savings, once when they saved it, and now again when they spend it?

Simply put, the FairTax is a revenue-neutral proposal, raising no more money than does the current system. The FairTax only changes where the money is raised, not the amount.

Additionally, some erroneously believe that people who have invested in Roth IRAs will never pay taxes on this money again. They may not know it, but they are paying corporate income taxes, employer payroll taxes, plus the associated compliance costs that are hidden in the price of every retail purchase they make. Under the FairTax, these hidden taxes are driven out of retail prices. And note, they can determine the amount of tax they pay through their own lifestyle choices.

Furthermore, used goods are not taxed because they have already been taxed once — when they were new. Therefore senior citizens, like all Americans, do not lose purchasing power, but gain it instead. Moreover, the FairTax preserves the purchasing power of Social Security benefits, and seniors receive a monthly prebate so they don’t pay taxes on the purchase of necessities. Tax-deferred investments get a one-time windfall. Savings invested in any long-term, income-generating asset such as a stock, real estate, or a long-term bond that can’t be called, increase substantially in value. Finally, complex estate planning is an artifact of an earlier age.

 

[francoHFW]

Wrong. The rich pay more than the poor. Duh. You just think the rich should pay your share cause they have more, and well you can't afford to pull your own weight as a man because you are a girlie boy.

You are a brainwashed, ignorant chump. I am a retired teacher, 6'4", 215. Idiot lol

Why Corporations and the Rich Pay So Few Taxes? | Fact Left

Read something FACTUAL. MORON.

So in your opinion a rich guy paying 100 million in taxes is less than you paying 5k in taxes. This because you deserve your income more than the rich guy right?

Only percentages make sense, dingbat. If the rich guy pays 12% like Mitt Romney, and the poor guy pays 30% like me, a person defending it is a brainwashed chump like YOU.

 

[bripat9643]

Wrong. The rich pay more than the poor. Duh. You just think the rich should pay your share cause they have more, and well you can't afford to pull your own weight as a man because you are a girlie boy.

You are a brainwashed, ignorant chump. I am a retired teacher, 6'4", 215. Idiot lol

Why Corporations and the Rich Pay So Few Taxes? | Fact Left

Read something FACTUAL. MORON.

So in your opinion a rich guy paying 100 million in taxes is less than you paying 5k in taxes. This because you deserve your income more than the rich guy right?

Ever notice how liberals and thugs have the same moral code? Liberal think it's OK to loot the rich because they don't need their money, and thugs believe the exact same thing.

 

[bripat9643]

The major point of tax reform should be to lower the taxes and fees on the nonrich and small companies, and to tax the rich and big corporations their fair share. Flat taxes are not fair.

At the moment, if you count ALL taxes and fees, the richest pay the LEAST percentage wise- same goes for big corporations- a conspiracy of a-hole Pubs and brainwashed dupes...

Why Corporations and the Rich Pay So Few Taxes? | Fact Left

Wrong. Looting the wealthy is not the point of tax reform. Eliminating the corrupt American version of the Gestapo we call the IRS is one of the main reasons. Other reasons include simplifying the tax code and improving economic growth.

 

[bripat9643]

Yeah, the problem is you retired

I agree that's the problem with switching from sales to income... it helps the folks that have assets they horded and the ones that don't work anymore, but then you can't switch back to sales without hurting cash hoarders and retirees who feel they are done being a slave to the state.

One way to fix that would be for people who are currently working to all quit and go on welfare thus putting the onus on paying the tab to the people who have assets we can take. hehe

If you buy products and services today, you are paying my employees income taxes, my business taxes, my business property taxes and all other taxes except the death tax. If we replace those taxes you are paying today with a flat tax on revenue that equals exactly those taxes, explain what that has to do with taxes you paid yesterday either way.

And if you paid income tax yesterday then have to turn around and pay sales tax tomorrow with the money that you already paid income tax from you just paid two times for the same thing. With the fair tax system the only way to come out ahead if you have a large amount of liquid assets that you already paid taxes on, is to convert your liquid assets to sales taxable items just prior to the switch over .. otherwise you will have wasted your money as it's going to uncle sam. You can argue prices are gonna come down till you are blue in your face.. my expectation is no change in prices... payroll stays the same and you spend the extra money you have just paying taxes. Though people will see the taxes every day and possibly ***** about taxes more and feel they are invested in lowering government expenditures that don't end up in their pocket.. Thus no change whatsoever.

The only tangible benefit with be promoting more production (hours) for wages and less spending... more investing to make those extra wages earn something. Course the Democrats will FREAK OUT and be SCREAMING for reams of new welfare programs to fix it so no one needs to work. See the prebate bull shit with the free tax. Not even out the door and they want checks for welfare.

Wrong.

Are seniors taxed twice on savings, once when they saved it, and now again when they spend it?

Simply put, the FairTax is a revenue-neutral proposal, raising no more money than does the current system. The FairTax only changes where the money is raised, not the amount.

Additionally, some erroneously believe that people who have invested in Roth IRAs will never pay taxes on this money again. They may not know it, but they are paying corporate income taxes, employer payroll taxes, plus the associated compliance costs that are hidden in the price of every retail purchase they make. Under the FairTax, these hidden taxes are driven out of retail prices. And note, they can determine the amount of tax they pay through their own lifestyle choices.

Furthermore, used goods are not taxed because they have already been taxed once — when they were new. Therefore senior citizens, like all Americans, do not lose purchasing power, but gain it instead. Moreover, the FairTax preserves the purchasing power of Social Security benefits, and seniors receive a monthly prebate so they don’t pay taxes on the purchase of necessities. Tax-deferred investments get a one-time windfall. Savings invested in any long-term, income-generating asset such as a stock, real estate, or a long-term bond that can’t be called, increase substantially in value. Finally, complex estate planning is an artifact of an earlier age.

 

[bripat9643]

So what is the solution to the Achilles heel of the Fair Tax I mentioned?

It is not an Achilles heal, it doesn't change anything. Taxes are baked in the price of products now. You remove those taxes and replace them with a flat tax on revenue and it doesn't raise the price of products.

A store doesn't charge you for what they spent on a bottle of ketchup, they charge you for what it costs to replace the bottle of ketchup on the shelf. The taxes baked into the price of products is for future taxes. Taxes paid in the past are already paid.

Let's say I earn $50,000 and I am taxed 25%. So the amount of money I get to keep is $37,500.

Let's say I am able to save $5,000 of that for my retirement.

Then one day, the income tax goes away and the Fair Tax is implemented.

When I go to buy something in my retirement with my $5,000, I have to pay a 30% Fair Tax.

My money has now been taxed twice. Once at 25%, and then again at 30%.

If the Fair Tax is never implemented, then my money is only taxed the one time, at 25%.

Now do you see the problem?

FAQS | FairTax.org

Are seniors taxed twice on savings, once when they saved it, and now again when they spend it?

Simply put, the FairTax is a revenue-neutral proposal, raising no more money than does the current system. The FairTax only changes where the money is raised, not the amount.

Additionally, some erroneously believe that people who have invested in Roth IRAs will never pay taxes on this money again. They may not know it, but they are paying corporate income taxes, employer payroll taxes, plus the associated compliance costs that are hidden in the price of every retail purchase they make. Under the FairTax, these hidden taxes are driven out of retail prices. And note, they can determine the amount of tax they pay through their own lifestyle choices.

Furthermore, used goods are not taxed because they have already been taxed once — when they were new. Therefore senior citizens, like all Americans, do not lose purchasing power, but gain it instead. Moreover, the FairTax preserves the purchasing power of Social Security benefits, and seniors receive a monthly prebate so they don’t pay taxes on the purchase of necessities. Tax-deferred investments get a one-time windfall. Savings invested in any long-term, income-generating asset such as a stock, real estate, or a long-term bond that can’t be called, increase substantially in value. Finally, complex estate planning is an artifact of an earlier age.

 

[ThoughtCrimes]

Hmmm, . . . those are arguments in favor of the FAIR tax, Bozo.

Obviously, she was either really all screwed up or she was talking to the fair tax. Look at the red highlighted clause of which I made note. Which is a direct tax and which is an indirect tax.

The flat tax is a direct tax and the fair tax is an indirect tax. Or do you really want to argue that!

Wrong, it's the reverse. Bripat is correct. Our economy is the sum of all financial transactions. The Fair Tax is a direct tax on that. The income tax is an indirect tax regardless of whether it is flat or not.

Consider two companies. Both of them make a widget for $100 and sell it for $200. Company A has labor costs of $25 in one widget, Company B automated and produces a widget with $10 in labor. Unfortunately for them, they suck at other things and don't save overall money.

So, with a flat tax, Company A pays tax on $25 per item sold and company B pays tax on $10 per item sold. Think about that, you hire less employees and automate, the government pays you to do that by reducing your taxes. By charging on revenue, both companies pay the same tax. Government is not disincenting labor.

I know what a direct tax is, what an indirect tax is and what differentiates the two:
If a tax is the final burden of the tax-payer, it is a direct tax.
If the final burden of a tax is shifted to the consumer, it is an indirect tax.

The IRS defines the two as such:
direct tax -A tax that cannot be shifted to others, such as the federal income tax.
indirect tax - A tax that can be shifted to others, such as business property taxes.

Therefore, the Fair tax is an indirect tax, because the total burden of the taxes are shifted to the consumer. If you and Bripat have an issue with that, perhaps you both should inform the IRS they are in error!

 

[francoHFW]

If it's not a progressive tax, it's for the greedy idiot rich and their chumps.
Why Corporations and the Rich Pay So Few Taxes? | Fact Left

 

[Skull Pilot]

It doesn't get rid of the IRS, and it doesn't eliminate the thousands upon thousands of pages of regulations that businesses must comply with when they report their income.

Any plan that doesn't abolish the income tax is a non-starter. It's pointless.

It's a sales tax, it's a tax on revenue, what are you talking about regarding it not getting rid of thousands of pages of regulations? How many pages does it take to say, "charge X percent of sales"...

The flat tax doesn't get rid of 80,000 pages of IRS regulations. The FAIR tax does. That's why I support it.

The fair tax also creates the largest entitlement ever.

Every single person will get a check from the government every month. And who gets the prebate? Does the 16 year old working to pay for his own car get one?

The prebate is a recipe for abuse and manipulation as all entitlement programs are.

 

[RKMBrown]

You are a brainwashed, ignorant chump. I am a retired teacher, 6'4", 215. Idiot lol

Why Corporations and the Rich Pay So Few Taxes? | Fact Left

Read something FACTUAL. MORON.

So in your opinion a rich guy paying 100 million in taxes is less than you paying 5k in taxes. This because you deserve your income more than the rich guy right?

Only percentages make sense, dingbat. If the rich guy pays 12% like Mitt Romney, and the poor guy pays 30% like me, a person defending it is a brainwashed chump like YOU.

ROFL 30% on a teachers salary. You gonna have us believe you were paying an effective 30% on a teachers salary. Either way can you or can you not tell whether 5k is greater or less than 100m?