For all you Wrongpublicans supporting the 'Fair Tax'

[RKMBrown]

Obviously, she was either really all screwed up or she was talking to the fair tax. Look at the red highlighted clause of which I made note. Which is a direct tax and which is an indirect tax.

The flat tax is a direct tax and the fair tax is an indirect tax. Or do you really want to argue that!

Wrong, it's the reverse. Bripat is correct. Our economy is the sum of all financial transactions. The Fair Tax is a direct tax on that. The income tax is an indirect tax regardless of whether it is flat or not.

Consider two companies. Both of them make a widget for $100 and sell it for $200. Company A has labor costs of $25 in one widget, Company B automated and produces a widget with $10 in labor. Unfortunately for them, they suck at other things and don't save overall money.

So, with a flat tax, Company A pays tax on $25 per item sold and company B pays tax on $10 per item sold. Think about that, you hire less employees and automate, the government pays you to do that by reducing your taxes. By charging on revenue, both companies pay the same tax. Government is not disincenting labor.

I know what a direct tax is, what an indirect tax is and what differentiates the two:
If a tax is the final burden of the tax-payer, it is a direct tax.
If the final burden of a tax is shifted to the consumer, it is an indirect tax.

The IRS defines the two as such:
direct tax -A tax that cannot be shifted to others, such as the federal income tax.
indirect tax - A tax that can be shifted to others, such as business property taxes.

Therefore, the Fair tax is an indirect tax, because the total burden of the taxes are shifted to the consumer. If you and Bripat have an issue with that, perhaps you both should inform the IRS they are in error!

ROFL... yeah cause we all know a person that pays income tax can't be a business owner that can shift the burden of his personal income taxes onto his customers. Further, we all know an owner with a fixed income can shift the cost of a new business property tax by asking his customer to renegotiate the non-negotiable contract. ROFL Don't believe everything you read.

 

[RKMBrown]

You are a brainwashed, ignorant chump. I am a retired teacher, 6'4", 215. Idiot lol

Why Corporations and the Rich Pay So Few Taxes? | Fact Left

Read something FACTUAL. MORON.

So in your opinion a rich guy paying 100 million in taxes is less than you paying 5k in taxes. This because you deserve your income more than the rich guy right?

Ever notice how liberals and thugs have the same moral code? Liberal think it's OK to loot the rich because they don't need their money, and thugs believe the exact same thing.

But it's coming down from government so it must be ok to loot from the rich. How could the government, who is the law, be lawless?

 

[francoHFW]

Don't be so damn stupid...and I'm talking ALL taxes and fees, not Pub propaganda. In wonderful NY state. I don't even mind helping stupid red states...not being a selfish, Party first, Pub dupe/a-hole...

 

[RKMBrown]

If you buy products and services today, you are paying my employees income taxes, my business taxes, my business property taxes and all other taxes except the death tax. If we replace those taxes you are paying today with a flat tax on revenue that equals exactly those taxes, explain what that has to do with taxes you paid yesterday either way.

And if you paid income tax yesterday then have to turn around and pay sales tax tomorrow with the money that you already paid income tax from you just paid two times for the same thing. With the fair tax system the only way to come out ahead if you have a large amount of liquid assets that you already paid taxes on, is to convert your liquid assets to sales taxable items just prior to the switch over .. otherwise you will have wasted your money as it's going to uncle sam. You can argue prices are gonna come down till you are blue in your face.. my expectation is no change in prices... payroll stays the same and you spend the extra money you have just paying taxes. Though people will see the taxes every day and possibly ***** about taxes more and feel they are invested in lowering government expenditures that don't end up in their pocket.. Thus no change whatsoever.

The only tangible benefit with be promoting more production (hours) for wages and less spending... more investing to make those extra wages earn something. Course the Democrats will FREAK OUT and be SCREAMING for reams of new welfare programs to fix it so no one needs to work. See the prebate bull shit with the free tax. Not even out the door and they want checks for welfare.

Wrong.

Are seniors taxed twice on savings, once when they saved it, and now again when they spend it?

Simply put, the FairTax is a revenue-neutral proposal, raising no more money than does the current system. The FairTax only changes where the money is raised, not the amount.

Additionally, some erroneously believe that people who have invested in Roth IRAs will never pay taxes on this money again. They may not know it, but they are paying corporate income taxes, employer payroll taxes, plus the associated compliance costs that are hidden in the price of every retail purchase they make. Under the FairTax, these hidden taxes are driven out of retail prices. And note, they can determine the amount of tax they pay through their own lifestyle choices.

Furthermore, used goods are not taxed because they have already been taxed once — when they were new. Therefore senior citizens, like all Americans, do not lose purchasing power, but gain it instead. Moreover, the FairTax preserves the purchasing power of Social Security benefits, and seniors receive a monthly prebate so they don’t pay taxes on the purchase of necessities. Tax-deferred investments get a one-time windfall. Savings invested in any long-term, income-generating asset such as a stock, real estate, or a long-term bond that can’t be called, increase substantially in value. Finally, complex estate planning is an artifact of an earlier age.

No you are wrong. You are not listening. That cut-n-paste is pointing to untaxed savings (IRAs). The issue the retired folk have is not with untaxed savings, it's with taxed earnings. They don't want to have to pay taxes on their already taxed earnings. If you shift taxes from earnings to purchases, that is good for the people who have no already taxed earnings. However if it is already taxed AT THE POINT IN TIME WHEN THE SHIFT OCCURS then you are being taxed TWICE. DOUBLE TAXATION. ROFL telling the old folks it's ok you can buy used shit with your already taxed earnings, still ignores the fact that people with untaxed earnings can buy used shit as well without ever paying a dime in taxes.

 

[francoHFW]

The greedy idiot mega-trich have been looting the nonrich for 32 years. see sig pp1. Open your eyes...

 

[kaz]

And if you paid income tax yesterday then have to turn around and pay sales tax tomorrow with the money that you already paid income tax from you just paid two times for the same thing. With the fair tax system the only way to come out ahead

That is the point, you do not come out "ahead" with the Fair Tax calculation, it replaces the taxes that are baked into products today. That is why your argument is invalid. If you are paying double taxes with the fair tax, you are paying double taxes without them.

You end up ahead in the long run in the efficiency that is gained, but the fair tax simply replaces the taxes baked into the taxes today. The Fair Tax today is just more efficient.

As for the income tax yesterday, you paid income taxes, but you did not pay a sales tax. Either way, you paid yesterday's taxes yesterday, you are paying today's taxes today.

 

[francoHFW]

Welcome to the real world, Pub dupe. Fact Left.com:
1. WORKERS PRODUCE MORE BUT THE GAINS GO TO BUSINESS.

Over the past 63 years worker productivity has grown by 2.0% per year.

But after 1980, workers received a smaller share every year. Labor’s share of income (1992 = 100%):

1950 = 101%
1960 = 105%
1970 = 105%
1980 = 105% – Reagan
1990 = 100%
2000 = 96%
2007 = 92%

A 13% drop since 1980

2. THE TOP 10% GET A LARGER SHARE.

Share of National Income going to Top 10%:

1950 = 35%
1960 = 34%
1970 = 34%
1980 = 34% – Reagan
1990 = 40%
2000 = 47%
2007 = 50%

An increase of 16% since Reagan.

3. WORKERS COMPENSATED FOR THE LOSS OF INCOME BY SPENDING THEIR SAVINGS.

The savings Rose up to Reagan and fell during and after.

1950 = 6.0%
1960 = 7.0%
1970 = 8.5%
1980 = 10.0% – Reagan
1982 = 11.2% – Peak
1990 = 7.0%
2000 = 2.0%
2006 = -1.1% (Negative = withdrawing from savings)

A 12.3% drop after Reagan.

4. WORKERS ALSO BORROWED TO MAKE UP FOR THE LOSS.

Household Debt as percentage of GDP:

1965 = 46%
1970 = 45%
1980 = 50% – Reagan
1990 = 61%
2000 = 69%
2007 = 95%

A 45% increase after 1980.

5. SO THE GAP BETWEEN THE RICHEST AND THE POOREST HAS GROWN.

Gap Between the Share of Capital Income earned by the top 1%
and the bottom 80%:

1980 = 10%
2003 = 56%

A 5.6 times increase.

6. AND THE AMERICAN DREAM IS GONE.

The Probably of Moving Up from the Bottom 40% to the Top 40%:

1945 = 12%
1958 = 6%
1990 = 3%
2000 = 2%

A 10% Decrease.

Links:

1 = ftp://ftp.bls.gov/pub/special.requests/pf/totalf1.txt
1 = https://www.clevelandfed.org/Research/PolicyDis/No7Nov04.pdf
1 = Clipboard01.jpg (image)
2 – Congratulations to Emmanuel Saez | The White House
3 = http://www.demos.org/inequality/images/charts/uspersonalsaving_thumb.gif
3 = http://www.bea.gov/national/nipaweb...able=58&Freq=Qtr&FirstYear=2008&LastYear=2010
4 = http://www.prudentbear.com/index.php/household-sector-debt-of-gdp
4 = FRB: Z.1 Release--Financial Accounts of the United States--June 5, 2014
5/6 = Wealth And Inequality In America - Business Insider

Overview = http://www.ourfuture.org/blog-entry/2010062415/reagan-revolution-home-roost-charts

 

[kaz]

No, the problem is I saved some money and then it was double taxed when I spent it due to the transition to the Fair Tax.

No one has presented an actual solution to this problem.

If you are paying double tax with the Fair Tax, you were anyway

You are not paying attn.

You are wrong.

Moving income tax to sales tax does not decrease the price of goods or services. It increases the cost of goods and services that are taxed, the theory is that your additional income is supposed to cover it. You are pretending that the people who already paid taxes had to pay the same tax again any way in the form of price fixing to pay payroll. But you are assuming then that the payrolls will go down so the price of products can go down. But that won't happen because the people need the income to pay for the sales tax... duh...

No, you are wrong and that isn't the theory. The theory is that you remove all the embedded taxes from the products and services you buy and replace them with a simpler one. There is no additional income, there is no tax reduction. In the short run, everything stays the same. In the long run efficiency drives down prices.

Think about it, other than the death tax, name a tax that is not embedded in the price of products and services that you buy. Your income taxes are embedded in the price of your employers products. The taxes for their debt holders are embedded in the price of their products. Think about it, all taxes other than the death tax are. Else the company cannot survive if they can't pay people (employees, investors, ...) enough to pay their taxes and then get their expected rate of return.

 

[kaz]

I know what a direct tax is, what an indirect tax is and what differentiates the two:
If a tax is the final burden of the tax-payer, it is a direct tax.
If the final burden of a tax is shifted to the consumer, it is an indirect tax.

The IRS defines the two as such:
direct tax -A tax that cannot be shifted to others, such as the federal income tax.
indirect tax - A tax that can be shifted to others, such as business property taxes.

Therefore, the Fair tax is an indirect tax, because the total burden of the taxes are shifted to the consumer. If you and Bripat have an issue with that, perhaps you both should inform the IRS they are in error!

Income taxes are generated only when there are financial transactions. Your employer sells products, so they have to hire you to do the work. Your income and your income taxes are baked into the price of the products they sell. You cannot have income unless products are sold. They can sell products without paying you income by automating, outsourcing, etc.

So no, the income tax is the indirect tax, the sale is the direct tax.

Think about the irony that in using the income tax as a "direct" tax, you are actually harming income earners by pegging them with the tax bill and letting off the hook:

- Foreign competitors who hire labor offshore

- US companies that move production offshore

- Companies that automate and reduce staffing

- People who work in cashless transactions and don't declare their income

- People who cheat on their taxes.

The fair tax makes all of them equal taxpayers. You screw honest, hard working, law abiding citizens by sticking them with the entire tab.

 

[zeke]

So in your opinion a rich guy paying 100 million in taxes is less than you paying 5k in taxes. This because you deserve your income more than the rich guy right?

Only percentages make sense, dingbat. If the rich guy pays 12% like Mitt Romney, and the poor guy pays 30% like me, a person defending it is a brainwashed chump like YOU.

ROFL 30% on a teachers salary. You gonna have us believe you were paying an effective 30% on a teachers salary. Either way can you or can you not tell whether 5k is greater or less than 100m?

Hey, you want to tell people that we in the USA have the highest corporate tax rate in the world. Now you want to talk about "effective" tax rates.

Hey, lets talk about "effective" tax rates the next time you rethugs trot out that old "we got the highest corporate tax rates in the world" bullshit. OK?

 

[kaz]

It's a sales tax, it's a tax on revenue, what are you talking about regarding it not getting rid of thousands of pages of regulations? How many pages does it take to say, "charge X percent of sales"...

The flat tax doesn't get rid of 80,000 pages of IRS regulations. The FAIR tax does. That's why I support it.

The fair tax also creates the largest entitlement ever.

Every single person will get a check from the government every month. And who gets the prebate? Does the 16 year old working to pay for his own car get one?

The prebate is a recipe for abuse and manipulation as all entitlement programs are.

Ridiculous. I am not a fan of the prebate, it's the flat sales tax I like. But looking at all the people who cheat on and evade taxes that it's "as all entitlement programs" would mean people would have to declare so many children it would be absurd. Our population would grow into the trillions overnight to make that math work.

 

[kaz]

They don't want to have to pay taxes on their already taxed earnings

They didn't pay the sales tax when they earned it. They are paying everyone else's embedded taxes when they spend it today.

You have stated a distinction without a difference. And they benefit like all taxpayers by bringing in undocumented taxpayers and making them documented LOL...

 

[RKMBrown]

And if you paid income tax yesterday then have to turn around and pay sales tax tomorrow with the money that you already paid income tax from you just paid two times for the same thing. With the fair tax system the only way to come out ahead

That is the point, you do not come out "ahead" with the Fair Tax calculation, it replaces the taxes that are baked into products today. That is why your argument is invalid. If you are paying double taxes with the fair tax, you are paying double taxes without them.

You end up ahead in the long run in the efficiency that is gained, but the fair tax simply replaces the taxes baked into the taxes today. The Fair Tax today is just more efficient.

As for the income tax yesterday, you paid income taxes, but you did not pay a sales tax. Either way, you paid yesterday's taxes yesterday, you are paying today's taxes today.

You're either to ignorant to understand simple math or you are lying. I don't know why.

First you say "If you are paying double taxes with the fair tax, you are paying double taxes without them."

Then you say, "As for the income tax yesterday, you paid income taxes, but you did not pay a sales tax." Which is correct, that's the first tax.

You then continue with, "Either way, you paid yesterday's taxes yesterday, you are paying today's taxes today." Paying yesterday's taxes on yesterdays income via income tax, that is TAX 1, paying today's tax on today's sales tax, that is TAX 2. If you only had income yesterday you got taxed twice. Tax 1 + Tax 2 = Two taxes. ONE PLUS ONE EQUALS TWO.
1+1=2. 1+1 DOES NOT EQUAL 1. Before the new sales tax it would be Tax 1 only, no tax 2. 1=1 Tax 1 = tax 1. Tax 1 does not equal tax 1 + tax 2. Are we getting the point yet?

So now you are trying to say if you only have income in one year, we should be taxing that year's income every year till it's whittled down to nothing. That surmise your view on income taxes? That was last years taxes what about this year? Really?

But yes if the fair tax did not have pre-bates it would be a system that promotes new income (production) and investments (savings) and over spending (pain from taxation). As for efficiency... I doubt it the Feds will just focus more on using the IRS to manage our health care plans.

 

[RKMBrown]

Only percentages make sense, dingbat. If the rich guy pays 12% like Mitt Romney, and the poor guy pays 30% like me, a person defending it is a brainwashed chump like YOU.

ROFL 30% on a teachers salary. You gonna have us believe you were paying an effective 30% on a teachers salary. Either way can you or can you not tell whether 5k is greater or less than 100m?

Hey, you want to tell people that we in the USA have the highest corporate tax rate in the world. Now you want to talk about "effective" tax rates.

Hey, lets talk about "effective" tax rates the next time you rethugs trot out that old "we got the highest corporate tax rates in the world" bullshit. OK?

You ok Zeke?

 

[RKMBrown]

They don't want to have to pay taxes on their already taxed earnings

They didn't pay the sales tax when they earned it. They are paying everyone else's embedded taxes when they spend it today.

You have stated a distinction without a difference. And they benefit like all taxpayers by bringing in undocumented taxpayers and making them documented LOL...

Translation... you don't give a shit about the people with large taxed assets cause your money is in tax sheltered accounts.

 

[Skull Pilot]

The flat tax doesn't get rid of 80,000 pages of IRS regulations. The FAIR tax does. That's why I support it.

The fair tax also creates the largest entitlement ever.

Every single person will get a check from the government every month. And who gets the prebate? Does the 16 year old working to pay for his own car get one?

The prebate is a recipe for abuse and manipulation as all entitlement programs are.

Ridiculous. I am not a fan of the prebate, it's the flat sales tax I like. But looking at all the people who cheat on and evade taxes that it's "as all entitlement programs" would mean people would have to declare so many children it would be absurd. Our population would grow into the trillions overnight to make that math work.

I thought the prebate was given to everyone regardless of income or need not just those with kids. And what of the teenager who works full time inthe simmer and part time during school? How much of a prebate will he get?

I might like the idea of the sales tax if it were simply a lower rate without all the extra crap

 

[kaz]

The fair tax also creates the largest entitlement ever.

Every single person will get a check from the government every month. And who gets the prebate? Does the 16 year old working to pay for his own car get one?

The prebate is a recipe for abuse and manipulation as all entitlement programs are.

Ridiculous. I am not a fan of the prebate, it's the flat sales tax I like. But looking at all the people who cheat on and evade taxes that it's "as all entitlement programs" would mean people would have to declare so many children it would be absurd. Our population would grow into the trillions overnight to make that math work.

I thought the prebate was given to everyone regardless of income or need not just those with kids. And what of the teenager who works full time inthe simmer and part time during school? How much of a prebate will he get?

I might like the idea of the sales tax if it were simply a lower rate without all the extra crap

The prebate is calculated to be the Fair Tax amount you would pay if you lived at the poverty line. No one is going to get rich having kids to get that, it wouldn't possibly pay for a kid.

 

[Skull Pilot]

Ridiculous. I am not a fan of the prebate, it's the flat sales tax I like. But looking at all the people who cheat on and evade taxes that it's "as all entitlement programs" would mean people would have to declare so many children it would be absurd. Our population would grow into the trillions overnight to make that math work.

I thought the prebate was given to everyone regardless of income or need not just those with kids. And what of the teenager who works full time inthe simmer and part time during school? How much of a prebate will he get?

I might like the idea of the sales tax if it were simply a lower rate without all the extra crap

The prebate is calculated to be the Fair Tax amount you would pay if you lived at the poverty line. No one is going to get rich having kids to get that, it wouldn't possibly pay for a kid.

I'm not saying it would pay for a kid I am asking you if a kid is working and paying partially to support himself how much of a prebate does he get?

When I was a kid I had to earn money to buy all my own clothes and to pay for my lunches at school.

Why shouldn't a kid doing that get a prebate?

This is only one issue that comes along with an entitlement program like a prebate.

It will be rife with corruption

 

[kaz]

I thought the prebate was given to everyone regardless of income or need not just those with kids. And what of the teenager who works full time inthe simmer and part time during school? How much of a prebate will he get?

I might like the idea of the sales tax if it were simply a lower rate without all the extra crap

The prebate is calculated to be the Fair Tax amount you would pay if you lived at the poverty line. No one is going to get rich having kids to get that, it wouldn't possibly pay for a kid.

I'm not saying it would pay for a kid I am asking you if a kid is working and paying partially to support himself how much of a prebate does he get?

When I was a kid I had to earn money to buy all my own clothes and to pay for my lunches at school.

Why shouldn't a kid doing that get a prebate?

This is only one issue that comes along with an entitlement program like a prebate.

It will be rife with corruption

To commit "corruption" someone would have to actually get an SSN for a fake kid. Compare that to the fraud in our current system.

As for the amount, the prebate are the embedded taxes at the poverty line. If for a family of four, the poverty line is $20,000, the total prebate for the family would be 23% of that, or $5,290 a year or $440.83 a month. Then if they spend $20,000 they would pay that back in embedded taxes.

I agree I would prefer to not have the prebate, but the idea is those below the poverty line don't pay taxes. And for simplicity, no one pays taxes for their spending below the poverty line.

 

[ThoughtCrimes]

I know what a direct tax is, what an indirect tax is and what differentiates the two:
If a tax is the final burden of the tax-payer, it is a direct tax.
If the final burden of a tax is shifted to the consumer, it is an indirect tax.

The IRS defines the two as such:
direct tax -A tax that cannot be shifted to others, such as the federal income tax.
indirect tax - A tax that can be shifted to others, such as business property taxes.

Therefore, the Fair tax is an indirect tax, because the total burden of the taxes are shifted to the consumer. If you and Bripat have an issue with that, perhaps you both should inform the IRS they are in error!

ROFL... yeah cause we all know a person that pays income tax can't be a business owner that can shift the burden of his personal income taxes onto his customers. Further, we all know an owner with a fixed income can shift the cost of a new business property tax by asking his customer to renegotiate the non-negotiable contract. ROFL Don't believe everything you read.

IRS definitions:
direct tax -A tax that cannot be shifted to others, such as the federal income tax.
indirect tax - A tax that can be shifted to others, such as business property taxes.

Direct tax:
19 CFR 351.509 - DIRECT TAXES
§ 351.509 Direct taxes.
(a) Benefit—
(1) Exemption or remission of taxes. In the case of a program that provides for a full or partial exemption or remission of a direct tax (e.g., an income tax), [emphasis added, sic] or a reduction in the base used to calculate a direct tax, a benefit exists to the extent that the tax paid by a firm as a result of the program is less than the tax the firm would have paid in the absence of the program.
Authority:
19 U.S. Code §§ 1202, 1303, 1671, 1671 (a-h), 3538

Indirect taxes:
19 CFR 351.510 - INDIRECT TAXES AND IMPORT CHARGES
§ 351.510 Indirect taxes and import charges (other than export programs).
(a) Benefit—
(1) Exemption or remission of taxes. In the case of a program, other than an export program, that provides for the full or partial exemption or remission of an indirect tax [emphasis added, sic] or an import charge, a benefit exists to the extent that the taxes or import charges paid by a firm as a result of the program are less than the taxes the firm would have paid in the absence of the program.
Authority:
19 U.S. Code §§ 1202, 1303, 1671, 1671 (a-h), 3538

U.S Constitution:
Article I Sec 8:
The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts and excises, to pay the debts and provide for the common defense and general welfare of the United States; but all duties, imposts and excises shall be uniform [emphasis added, sic] throughout the United States;

SCOTUS:
Pollock v. Farmers' Loan and Trust Company (No. 898)
Decided: April 8, 1895
In Justice Fuller's Opinion of the Court:
"The first question to be considered is whether a tax on the rents or income of real estate is a direct tax within the meaning of the Constitution. Ordinarily, all taxes paid primarily by persons who can shift the burden upon someone else, or who are under no legal compulsion to pay them, are considered indirect taxes; but a tax upon property holders in respect of their estates, whether real or personal, or of the income yielded by such estates, and the payment of which cannot be avoided, are direct taxes." [emphasis added]

Well Pilgrim, your round the bend assertion is that you are more knowledgeable than the IRS, Congress, SCOTUS and the Framers of the Constitution with your "laughing fit" pseudo argument regarding your impressions of the two types of taxation and disregard of the actual definitions. Should I be impressed with your IMPLIED tribal knowledge? NAW, I'll just shake my head in disbelief of your ignorance and hubris!