For all the Bigoted Bakers, Fanatical Florists and Pharisee Photographers

[ChrisL]

I think its just as important to stand up to laws as it is to protect people with laws.
Its the best way to keep the powers that be "in check".

What's your position on the law. Agree or disagree?

 

[ChrisL]

The Supreme Court has never recognized PA laws as violating the 1st amendment. And denied cert to cases involving religious objections to gay marriage and PA laws.

Well it's always a good idea to WAIT until a case is brought before the Court before you make some asinine statement like "The Supreme Court has never recognized PA laws as violating the 1st Amendment. That case will be Heard. Then AFTER it's heard you can make a definitive statement about what the Court believes or doesn't believe...

A photographer who objected to serving a gay couple on religious grounds and was subject to State PA laws already petitioned the USSC for cert.

The SCOTUS denied it, refusing to hear his case. And allowed the lower court ruling that held he has violated PA laws to stand. The USSC has never found that PA laws violate the 1st amendment.

That's you, citing yourself. Which as the Obergefell ruling demonstrated is a worthless source on predicting how the court will rule on a topic.

Denying Cert does not = the SC agrees with anything, they can deny due to lack of standing, or if they feel the time isn't right for viewing a case.

The court has never found that State PA laws violate the 1st amendment and have refused to hear cases involving such challenges.

Nor has any federal court ruled that State PA laws violate the 1st amendment. Nor has a State court. There's simply no legal conflict regarding the issue in the law.

It's very uplifting to see I am not the only one who understands the laws and how they are applied.

 

[ChrisL]

I can most definitely control the products I offer the public. I just cannot discriminate with ACCESS to my products.

 

[saveliberty]

That's right. I can refuse to print words I don't like. What I cannot do is refuse to do business with a person because he or she is gay. I can tell them that I don't provide such products (I can win in a court too, by claiming doing such would hurt my business) and I can show them the products and services that I do offer.

Printers can refuse to print what they don't like. If you bake a cake, you're in big trouble.

 

[ChrisL]

That's right. I can refuse to print words I don't like. What I cannot do is refuse to do business with a person because he or she is gay. I can tell them that I don't provide such products (I can win in a court too, by claiming doing such would hurt my business) and I can show them the products and services that I do offer.

Printers can refuse to print what they don't like. If you bake a cake, you're in big trouble.

This doesn't even make sense.

 

[Silhouette]

I can most definitely control the products I offer the public. I just cannot discriminate with ACCESS to my products.

You mean like being a gay billboard designer but being able to refuse on principle having to create a billboard for a Christian requesting that you make one that says "Homosexuality is a sin unto God"?

 

[ChrisL]

I can most definitely control the products I offer the public. I just cannot discriminate with ACCESS to my products.

You mean like being a gay billboard designer but being able to refuse on principle having to create a billboard for a Christian requesting that you make one that says "Homosexuality is a sin unto God"?

Yes. I can refuse to make any product. I cannot deny access to my product to a person though. I do not have to honor special requests. There are no laws that say I do. There ARE laws that say I cannot deny access to my business to any specific group or groups of people.

 

[PratchettFan]

You are citing the employment discrimination laws. They do not apply to this.

Did you read it? Here . . . "anyone claiming to have been discriminated against at work, in a place where the public is served, such as a restaurant or hotel . . . "

Yes. Did you read it? This is employment. I posted the public accommodation law - which this is not.

What are you disagreeing with me about? Be specific. Here is my claim . . . I can limit which services I provide to the public. Agree or disagree?

I cannot limit WHO I provide those services to. Agree or disagree?

You can limit what you provide to everyone, but that was not the scenario. Let's go back to the scenario. You are refusing to print specific words that are purely religious in nature - just words you don't like. You do not refuse to print all words to everyone. That is prohibited discrimination under the Oregon law.

That's right. I can refuse to print words I don't like. What I cannot do is refuse to do business with a person because he or she is gay. I can tell them that I don't provide such products (I can win in a court too, by claiming doing such would hurt my business) and I can show them the products and services that I do offer.

You cannot discriminate against a protected class, which happens to include religion. You can certainly refuse as you please, but you will be in violation of the Oregon law and subject to the same penalties.

 

[ChrisL]

Did you read it? Here . . . "anyone claiming to have been discriminated against at work, in a place where the public is served, such as a restaurant or hotel . . . "

Yes. Did you read it? This is employment. I posted the public accommodation law - which this is not.

What are you disagreeing with me about? Be specific. Here is my claim . . . I can limit which services I provide to the public. Agree or disagree?

I cannot limit WHO I provide those services to. Agree or disagree?

You can limit what you provide to everyone, but that was not the scenario. Let's go back to the scenario. You are refusing to print specific words that are purely religious in nature - just words you don't like. You do not refuse to print all words to everyone. That is prohibited discrimination under the Oregon law.

That's right. I can refuse to print words I don't like. What I cannot do is refuse to do business with a person because he or she is gay. I can tell them that I don't provide such products (I can win in a court too, by claiming doing such would hurt my business) and I can show them the products and services that I do offer.

You cannot discriminate against a protected class, which happens to include religion. You can certainly refuse as you please, but you will be in violation of the Oregon law and subject to the same penalties.

If I refused them access to my product, that would be discrimination according to the Oregon law. Controlling my product is not.

 

[featherlite]

I think its just as important to stand up to laws as it is to protect people with laws.
Its the best way to keep the powers that be "in check".

What's your position on the law. Agree or disagree?

I agree no one should be discriminated against...but this stupid cake situation brought up some issues that had never been dealt with before.
I'm glad those bakers stood up to it.

 

[PratchettFan]

Yes. Did you read it? This is employment. I posted the public accommodation law - which this is not.

What are you disagreeing with me about? Be specific. Here is my claim . . . I can limit which services I provide to the public. Agree or disagree?

I cannot limit WHO I provide those services to. Agree or disagree?

You can limit what you provide to everyone, but that was not the scenario. Let's go back to the scenario. You are refusing to print specific words that are purely religious in nature - just words you don't like. You do not refuse to print all words to everyone. That is prohibited discrimination under the Oregon law.

That's right. I can refuse to print words I don't like. What I cannot do is refuse to do business with a person because he or she is gay. I can tell them that I don't provide such products (I can win in a court too, by claiming doing such would hurt my business) and I can show them the products and services that I do offer.

You cannot discriminate against a protected class, which happens to include religion. You can certainly refuse as you please, but you will be in violation of the Oregon law and subject to the same penalties.

If I refused them access to my product, that would be discrimination according to the Oregon law. Controlling my product is not.

If refusing to write "Congratulations Monica and Denise" on a wedding cake is discrimination, how is refusing to write "Homosexuality is an abomination, sayeth the Lord" on a poster not discrimination?

 

[ChrisL]

What are you disagreeing with me about? Be specific. Here is my claim . . . I can limit which services I provide to the public. Agree or disagree?

I cannot limit WHO I provide those services to. Agree or disagree?

You can limit what you provide to everyone, but that was not the scenario. Let's go back to the scenario. You are refusing to print specific words that are purely religious in nature - just words you don't like. You do not refuse to print all words to everyone. That is prohibited discrimination under the Oregon law.

That's right. I can refuse to print words I don't like. What I cannot do is refuse to do business with a person because he or she is gay. I can tell them that I don't provide such products (I can win in a court too, by claiming doing such would hurt my business) and I can show them the products and services that I do offer.

You cannot discriminate against a protected class, which happens to include religion. You can certainly refuse as you please, but you will be in violation of the Oregon law and subject to the same penalties.

If I refused them access to my product, that would be discrimination according to the Oregon law. Controlling my product is not.

If refusing to write "Congratulations Monica and Denise" on a wedding cake is discrimination, how is refusing to write "Homosexuality is an abomination, sayeth the Lord" on a poster not discrimination?

I said it wasn't discrimination. Neither of those things are discrimination. What is discrimination is refusing to bake a cake for a person because he or she is gay.

 

[ChrisL]

You can limit what you provide to everyone, but that was not the scenario. Let's go back to the scenario. You are refusing to print specific words that are purely religious in nature - just words you don't like. You do not refuse to print all words to everyone. That is prohibited discrimination under the Oregon law.

That's right. I can refuse to print words I don't like. What I cannot do is refuse to do business with a person because he or she is gay. I can tell them that I don't provide such products (I can win in a court too, by claiming doing such would hurt my business) and I can show them the products and services that I do offer.

You cannot discriminate against a protected class, which happens to include religion. You can certainly refuse as you please, but you will be in violation of the Oregon law and subject to the same penalties.

If I refused them access to my product, that would be discrimination according to the Oregon law. Controlling my product is not.

If refusing to write "Congratulations Monica and Denise" on a wedding cake is discrimination, how is refusing to write "Homosexuality is an abomination, sayeth the Lord" on a poster not discrimination?

I said it wasn't discrimination. Neither of those things are discrimination. What is discrimination is refusing to bake a cake for a person because he or she is gay.

^^^ Or to deny them the services you normally provide for your other clients.

 

[ChrisL]

What are you disagreeing with me about? Be specific. Here is my claim . . . I can limit which services I provide to the public. Agree or disagree?

I cannot limit WHO I provide those services to. Agree or disagree?

You can limit what you provide to everyone, but that was not the scenario. Let's go back to the scenario. You are refusing to print specific words that are purely religious in nature - just words you don't like. You do not refuse to print all words to everyone. That is prohibited discrimination under the Oregon law.

That's right. I can refuse to print words I don't like. What I cannot do is refuse to do business with a person because he or she is gay. I can tell them that I don't provide such products (I can win in a court too, by claiming doing such would hurt my business) and I can show them the products and services that I do offer.

You cannot discriminate against a protected class, which happens to include religion. You can certainly refuse as you please, but you will be in violation of the Oregon law and subject to the same penalties.

If I refused them access to my product, that would be discrimination according to the Oregon law. Controlling my product is not.

If refusing to write "Congratulations Monica and Denise" on a wedding cake is discrimination, how is refusing to write "Homosexuality is an abomination, sayeth the Lord" on a poster not discrimination?

Absolutely nothing wrong with saying you don't do writings on cakes. You don't have to do that. That is your choice as a business owner. What isn't your choice is restricting who is allowed to purchase your product.

 

[PratchettFan]

You can limit what you provide to everyone, but that was not the scenario. Let's go back to the scenario. You are refusing to print specific words that are purely religious in nature - just words you don't like. You do not refuse to print all words to everyone. That is prohibited discrimination under the Oregon law.

That's right. I can refuse to print words I don't like. What I cannot do is refuse to do business with a person because he or she is gay. I can tell them that I don't provide such products (I can win in a court too, by claiming doing such would hurt my business) and I can show them the products and services that I do offer.

You cannot discriminate against a protected class, which happens to include religion. You can certainly refuse as you please, but you will be in violation of the Oregon law and subject to the same penalties.

If I refused them access to my product, that would be discrimination according to the Oregon law. Controlling my product is not.

If refusing to write "Congratulations Monica and Denise" on a wedding cake is discrimination, how is refusing to write "Homosexuality is an abomination, sayeth the Lord" on a poster not discrimination?

I said it wasn't discrimination. Neither of those things are discrimination. What is discrimination is refusing to bake a cake for a person because he or she is gay.

They aren't refusing because they are gay. I am sure a gay person could go into that bakery and buy a cake as they pleased. Even doughnuts if the mood took them. They are refusing to provide a cake for a same sex wedding. It is the nature of the cake that matters, just as it was the nature of the poster you had issue with. So you think then that the bakers who Oregon found guilty and fined for discrimination were, in fact, not discriminating?

 

[ChrisL]

What are you disagreeing with me about? Be specific. Here is my claim . . . I can limit which services I provide to the public. Agree or disagree?

I cannot limit WHO I provide those services to. Agree or disagree?

You can limit what you provide to everyone, but that was not the scenario. Let's go back to the scenario. You are refusing to print specific words that are purely religious in nature - just words you don't like. You do not refuse to print all words to everyone. That is prohibited discrimination under the Oregon law.

That's right. I can refuse to print words I don't like. What I cannot do is refuse to do business with a person because he or she is gay. I can tell them that I don't provide such products (I can win in a court too, by claiming doing such would hurt my business) and I can show them the products and services that I do offer.

You cannot discriminate against a protected class, which happens to include religion. You can certainly refuse as you please, but you will be in violation of the Oregon law and subject to the same penalties.

If I refused them access to my product, that would be discrimination according to the Oregon law. Controlling my product is not.

If refusing to write "Congratulations Monica and Denise" on a wedding cake is discrimination, how is refusing to write "Homosexuality is an abomination, sayeth the Lord" on a poster not discrimination?

There is a difference between refusing to write certain phrases on a cake, and denying certain groups of people access to your product. I hope you can see the difference.

 

[ChrisL]

That's right. I can refuse to print words I don't like. What I cannot do is refuse to do business with a person because he or she is gay. I can tell them that I don't provide such products (I can win in a court too, by claiming doing such would hurt my business) and I can show them the products and services that I do offer.

You cannot discriminate against a protected class, which happens to include religion. You can certainly refuse as you please, but you will be in violation of the Oregon law and subject to the same penalties.

If I refused them access to my product, that would be discrimination according to the Oregon law. Controlling my product is not.

If refusing to write "Congratulations Monica and Denise" on a wedding cake is discrimination, how is refusing to write "Homosexuality is an abomination, sayeth the Lord" on a poster not discrimination?

I said it wasn't discrimination. Neither of those things are discrimination. What is discrimination is refusing to bake a cake for a person because he or she is gay.

They aren't refusing because they are gay. I am sure a gay person could go into that bakery and buy a cake as they pleased. Even doughnuts if the mood took them. They are refusing to provide a cake for a same sex wedding. It is the nature of the cake that matters, just as it was the nature of the poster you had issue with. So you think then that the bakers who Oregon found guilty and fined for discrimination were, in fact, not discriminating?

It's discrimination if they make wedding cakes but refuse to do so for a certain segment of the population.

 

[PratchettFan]

You can limit what you provide to everyone, but that was not the scenario. Let's go back to the scenario. You are refusing to print specific words that are purely religious in nature - just words you don't like. You do not refuse to print all words to everyone. That is prohibited discrimination under the Oregon law.

That's right. I can refuse to print words I don't like. What I cannot do is refuse to do business with a person because he or she is gay. I can tell them that I don't provide such products (I can win in a court too, by claiming doing such would hurt my business) and I can show them the products and services that I do offer.

You cannot discriminate against a protected class, which happens to include religion. You can certainly refuse as you please, but you will be in violation of the Oregon law and subject to the same penalties.

If I refused them access to my product, that would be discrimination according to the Oregon law. Controlling my product is not.

If refusing to write "Congratulations Monica and Denise" on a wedding cake is discrimination, how is refusing to write "Homosexuality is an abomination, sayeth the Lord" on a poster not discrimination?

Absolutely nothing wrong with saying you don't do writings on cakes. You don't have to do that. That is your choice as a business owner. What isn't your choice is restricting who is allowed to purchase your product.

But they do writings on cakes, just as the graphic artist does writing on posters. It is just that neither wants to do the particular writing. I notice you didn't answer my question. Why is one discrimination and the other isn't?

 

[ChrisL]

That's right. I can refuse to print words I don't like. What I cannot do is refuse to do business with a person because he or she is gay. I can tell them that I don't provide such products (I can win in a court too, by claiming doing such would hurt my business) and I can show them the products and services that I do offer.

You cannot discriminate against a protected class, which happens to include religion. You can certainly refuse as you please, but you will be in violation of the Oregon law and subject to the same penalties.

If I refused them access to my product, that would be discrimination according to the Oregon law. Controlling my product is not.

If refusing to write "Congratulations Monica and Denise" on a wedding cake is discrimination, how is refusing to write "Homosexuality is an abomination, sayeth the Lord" on a poster not discrimination?

Absolutely nothing wrong with saying you don't do writings on cakes. You don't have to do that. That is your choice as a business owner. What isn't your choice is restricting who is allowed to purchase your product.

But they do writings on cakes, just as the graphic artist does writing on posters. It is just that neither wants to do the particular writing. I notice you didn't answer my question. Why is one discrimination and the other isn't?

I already explained it to you. Refusing to write a certain phrase on a cake or whatever is not discriminating against a group of people. Refusing to provide your services to a certain group of people is discrimination.

 

[PratchettFan]

You can limit what you provide to everyone, but that was not the scenario. Let's go back to the scenario. You are refusing to print specific words that are purely religious in nature - just words you don't like. You do not refuse to print all words to everyone. That is prohibited discrimination under the Oregon law.

That's right. I can refuse to print words I don't like. What I cannot do is refuse to do business with a person because he or she is gay. I can tell them that I don't provide such products (I can win in a court too, by claiming doing such would hurt my business) and I can show them the products and services that I do offer.

You cannot discriminate against a protected class, which happens to include religion. You can certainly refuse as you please, but you will be in violation of the Oregon law and subject to the same penalties.

If I refused them access to my product, that would be discrimination according to the Oregon law. Controlling my product is not.

If refusing to write "Congratulations Monica and Denise" on a wedding cake is discrimination, how is refusing to write "Homosexuality is an abomination, sayeth the Lord" on a poster not discrimination?

There is a difference between refusing to write certain phrases on a cake, and denying certain groups of people access to your product. I hope you can see the difference.

So the baker can refuse to put any figures on the cake, refuse to decorate it as if it were a wedding cake or make it in any way distinctive to a wedding - even if they sell wedding cakes exactly like that. Is that the difference?