For all the Bigoted Bakers, Fanatical Florists and Pharisee Photographers

[PratchettFan]

If I opened a printing business, I would expect to have all kinds of customers. If I had a rule, it would apply to all people equally. That is not discriminating.

So then you believe and would support as a matter of law, language in any Court Ruling on this topic when it makes it to SCOTUS in the next year or two, that gay graphic artists would have to be forced to print "homosexuality is an abomination and a mortal sin, forbidden by the teachings of Jesus Christ in the New Testament" for a busy highway billboard, or they could be fined or gagged, or sued into the poorhouse by Christians?

OK, anyone else agree with Chris?

Nope, I would have a rule that I don't print hate speech, regardless of the belief of the customer. That would equally apply to everyone. No discrimination.

What if I had a rule that I didn't put two men or two women on a wedding cake and applied that equally to everyone? Would that be discrimination?

No, that is discriminating against gay people. You could have a rule that you make the cake but you don't decorate them. Or, you can have generic cakes that the public can choose and not deviate from those samples.

 

[teapartysamurai]

So.... the court gets to decide unless you disagree with the decision?

The court gets to decide regardless, but their decision has no impact on what I think is right or wrong.

Ok. I can certainly respect that.

Exactly. He is still entitled to hate other people. He just cannot discriminate between customers when it comes to providing a service that he agreed to provide when opening the business, regardless of race, sexual orientation, gender, etc.

I think you are completely missing what Marty is saying or the basis of his position.

Okay, explain then. From what I see, he and others are stomping their feet because they can't treat their fellow Americans as second class citizens because of their bigoted views. He is certainly entitled to FEEL anyway he wants, he just cannot apply that to business dealings, as a regular business is treated as any other business and has to abide by secular law as they are not religious institutions.

Where does it say in the 1st amendment that you have the freedom of religion EXCEPT in business?

 

[ChrisL]

If you are a church, and a gay couple wants you to perform their marriage ceremony, because you are a religious institution, you retain the right to refuse. However, a bakery is not a religious institution. As such, they have to abide by the law and civil rights laws and anti-discrimination laws.

 

[ChrisL]

If I opened a printing business, I would expect to have all kinds of customers. If I had a rule, it would apply to all people equally. That is not discriminating.

So then you believe and would support as a matter of law, language in any Court Ruling on this topic when it makes it to SCOTUS in the next year or two, that gay graphic artists would have to be forced to print "homosexuality is an abomination and a mortal sin, forbidden by the teachings of Jesus Christ in the New Testament" for a busy highway billboard, or they could be fined or gagged, or sued into the poorhouse by Christians?

OK, anyone else agree with Chris?

Nope, I would have a rule that I don't print hate speech, regardless of the belief of the customer. That would equally apply to everyone. No discrimination.

What if I had a rule that I didn't put two men or two women on a wedding cake and applied that equally to everyone? Would that be discrimination?

No, that is discriminating against gay people. You could have a rule that you make the cake but you don't decorate them. Or, you can have generic cakes that the public can choose and not deviate from those samples.

I don't see a reply here.

 

[saveliberty]

Nope, I would have a rule that I don't print hate speech, regardless of the belief of the customer. That would equally apply to everyone. No discrimination.

So free speech in the Constitution is just a fad?

Discrimination is not free speech. When you open up a business, you must abide by your respective state's laws. You cannot refuse to serve a person because he or she is gay. That's all there is to it. If you feel this is an injustice to you, then the problem is you.

You discriminated by a subjective "hate speech" term.

How so? Explain how I have discriminated against anyone. Have I refused to provide a service to a person because of his or her sexual orientation, race, gender or what not?

You refuse service to someone, because you decided something was hate speech, so you can ignore free speech in your business. Hating a sinful act is different than hating the sinner.

 

[ChrisL]

The court gets to decide regardless, but their decision has no impact on what I think is right or wrong.

Ok. I can certainly respect that.

Exactly. He is still entitled to hate other people. He just cannot discriminate between customers when it comes to providing a service that he agreed to provide when opening the business, regardless of race, sexual orientation, gender, etc.

I think you are completely missing what Marty is saying or the basis of his position.

Okay, explain then. From what I see, he and others are stomping their feet because they can't treat their fellow Americans as second class citizens because of their bigoted views. He is certainly entitled to FEEL anyway he wants, he just cannot apply that to business dealings, as a regular business is treated as any other business and has to abide by secular law as they are not religious institutions.

Where does it say in the 1st amendment that you have the freedom of religion EXCEPT in business?

First of all, you have to understand what freedom of religion is. You obviously do not.

 

[teapartysamurai]

Ok. I can certainly respect that.

Exactly. He is still entitled to hate other people. He just cannot discriminate between customers when it comes to providing a service that he agreed to provide when opening the business, regardless of race, sexual orientation, gender, etc.

I think you are completely missing what Marty is saying or the basis of his position.

Okay, explain then. From what I see, he and others are stomping their feet because they can't treat their fellow Americans as second class citizens because of their bigoted views. He is certainly entitled to FEEL anyway he wants, he just cannot apply that to business dealings, as a regular business is treated as any other business and has to abide by secular law as they are not religious institutions.

Where does it say in the 1st amendment that you have the freedom of religion EXCEPT in business?

First of all, you have to understand what freedom of religion is. You obviously do not.

Typical of liberals. When you nail them on a question, they claim they have some "special knowledge" you don't because they are soooooooooooooooooooo elite and above you.

 

[ChrisL]

Nope, I would have a rule that I don't print hate speech, regardless of the belief of the customer. That would equally apply to everyone. No discrimination.

So free speech in the Constitution is just a fad?

Discrimination is not free speech. When you open up a business, you must abide by your respective state's laws. You cannot refuse to serve a person because he or she is gay. That's all there is to it. If you feel this is an injustice to you, then the problem is you.

You discriminated by a subjective "hate speech" term.

How so? Explain how I have discriminated against anyone. Have I refused to provide a service to a person because of his or her sexual orientation, race, gender or what not?

You refuse service to someone, because you decided something was hate speech, so you can ignore free speech in your business. Hating a sinful act is different than hating the sinner.

Lol! I have refused service to someone? When was this? It doesn't matter if you don't like someone's life or how they conduct themselves, you still cannot discriminate when conducting business. It is against the law. Religious exemptions don't apply to non-religious institutions.

 

[saveliberty]

How so? Explain how I have discriminated against anyone. Have I refused to provide a service to a person because of his or her sexual orientation, race, gender or what not?

Religious beliefs. Yep, you are a bigot too.

 

[teapartysamurai]

So free speech in the Constitution is just a fad?

Discrimination is not free speech. When you open up a business, you must abide by your respective state's laws. You cannot refuse to serve a person because he or she is gay. That's all there is to it. If you feel this is an injustice to you, then the problem is you.

You discriminated by a subjective "hate speech" term.

How so? Explain how I have discriminated against anyone. Have I refused to provide a service to a person because of his or her sexual orientation, race, gender or what not?

You refuse service to someone, because you decided something was hate speech, so you can ignore free speech in your business. Hating a sinful act is different than hating the sinner.

Lol! I have refused service to someone? When was this? It doesn't matter if you don't like someone's life or how they conduct themselves, you still cannot discriminate when conducting business. It is against the law. Religious exemptions don't apply to non-religious institutions.

Who are you to decide what IS and is not religious?

 

[ChrisL]

Exactly. He is still entitled to hate other people. He just cannot discriminate between customers when it comes to providing a service that he agreed to provide when opening the business, regardless of race, sexual orientation, gender, etc.

I think you are completely missing what Marty is saying or the basis of his position.

Okay, explain then. From what I see, he and others are stomping their feet because they can't treat their fellow Americans as second class citizens because of their bigoted views. He is certainly entitled to FEEL anyway he wants, he just cannot apply that to business dealings, as a regular business is treated as any other business and has to abide by secular law as they are not religious institutions.

Where does it say in the 1st amendment that you have the freedom of religion EXCEPT in business?

First of all, you have to understand what freedom of religion is. You obviously do not.

Typical of liberals. When you nail them on a question, they claim they have some "special knowledge" you don't because they are soooooooooooooooooooo elite and above you.

Nope, preventing you from discriminating as a non-religious entity is not going against your freedom of religion. You are still free to practice your religion, choose your religion, go to the church of your choice, preach on the street about the gays, etc.

What you cannot do, is blatantly discriminate against certain sectors of the community using religious freedom as an excuse when you are not a religious organization. Lol.

 

[ChrisL]

How so? Explain how I have discriminated against anyone. Have I refused to provide a service to a person because of his or her sexual orientation, race, gender or what not?

Religious beliefs. Yep, you are a bigot too.

I haven't discriminated against anyone. Sorry, you are wrong. I am simply stating the law.

 

[Sun Devil 92]

Not your call to make, and not government's call to make unless there is harm, and thus a compelling government interest.

Getting rid of homophobia is a compelling government interest.

Done.

Garbage.

 

[ChrisL]

Discrimination is not free speech. When you open up a business, you must abide by your respective state's laws. You cannot refuse to serve a person because he or she is gay. That's all there is to it. If you feel this is an injustice to you, then the problem is you.

You discriminated by a subjective "hate speech" term.

How so? Explain how I have discriminated against anyone. Have I refused to provide a service to a person because of his or her sexual orientation, race, gender or what not?

You refuse service to someone, because you decided something was hate speech, so you can ignore free speech in your business. Hating a sinful act is different than hating the sinner.

Lol! I have refused service to someone? When was this? It doesn't matter if you don't like someone's life or how they conduct themselves, you still cannot discriminate when conducting business. It is against the law. Religious exemptions don't apply to non-religious institutions.

Who are you to decide what IS and is not religious?

The state decides, derp.

 

[PratchettFan]

So.... the court gets to decide unless you disagree with the decision?

The court gets to decide regardless, but their decision has no impact on what I think is right or wrong.

Ok. I can certainly respect that.

Exactly. He is still entitled to hate other people. He just cannot discriminate between customers when it comes to providing a service that he agreed to provide when opening the business, regardless of race, sexual orientation, gender, etc.

I think you are completely missing what Marty is saying or the basis of his position.

Okay, explain then. From what I see, he and others are stomping their feet because they can't treat their fellow Americans as second class citizens because of their bigoted views. He is certainly entitled to FEEL anyway he wants, he just cannot apply that to business dealings, as a regular business is treated as any other business and has to abide by secular law as they are not religious institutions.

He is saying it is not the place of the government to force people to associate with others unless there is a compelling interest to do so, such as providing food, housing, etc. He does not consider the need for pastry to constitute a compelling interest. Who the people are involved is not the issue, only the issue of governmental force. He would equally be opposed to the government forcing a gay baker from baking a cake for the Westboro Baptist Church or a black baker from baking a cake for a white power party. He is not supporting discrimination, he is opposing governmental force.

 

[saveliberty]

Lol! I have refused service to someone? When was this? It doesn't matter if you don't like someone's life or how they conduct themselves, you still cannot discriminate when conducting business. It is against the law. Religious exemptions don't apply to non-religious institutions.

In your hypothetical printing business. Businesses discriminate all the time based in distance, pricing, language and many other factors. Most businesses are small ones. They are an extension of the person who owns it. Can you separate your belief system from your life?

 

[g5000]

In your hypothetical printing business. Business discriminate all the time based in distance, pricing, language and many other factors.

This, class, is what is known as equivocation.

 

[Sun Devil 92]

Old man, you started out with virgins, living together, divorced and other things a baker wouldn't have any idea of knowing about people. That's a fail. Keep in mind you didn't know the difference between a Covenant and Testament, your lack of Biblical knowledge disqualifies you

Uh, when I was growing up, we always knew who the neighborhood slut was.

and you keep dodging the question. Why is okay for you to ignore some parts of the bible to make money but not others?

That's about the most i can dumb it down for you.

The OP raises a very good question.

Don't forget that Matthew 7 discusses not judging (might have already been brought up).

And Jesus loved sinners but still condemned the sin (didn't stop him from eating with them).

He also seemed just as put off (if not more put off) by hypocricy than sin itself.

While I am not pro-Gay Marriage, I am not pro a lot of things......that is between myself and God.

I think he expects me to treat others with respect regardless of what they are doing (as long as it is not harming me) and suggests that we go the extra mile with those we disagree with (which seems to imply reaching out so that you might make your point in a friendly way instead of picketing funerals).

 

[ChrisL]

The court gets to decide regardless, but their decision has no impact on what I think is right or wrong.

Ok. I can certainly respect that.

Exactly. He is still entitled to hate other people. He just cannot discriminate between customers when it comes to providing a service that he agreed to provide when opening the business, regardless of race, sexual orientation, gender, etc.

I think you are completely missing what Marty is saying or the basis of his position.

Okay, explain then. From what I see, he and others are stomping their feet because they can't treat their fellow Americans as second class citizens because of their bigoted views. He is certainly entitled to FEEL anyway he wants, he just cannot apply that to business dealings, as a regular business is treated as any other business and has to abide by secular law as they are not religious institutions.

He is saying it is not the place of the government to force people to associate with others unless there is a compelling interest to do so, such as providing food, housing, etc. He does not consider the need for pastry to constitute a compelling interest. Who the people are involved is not the issue, only the issue of governmental force. He would equally be opposed to the government forcing a gay baker from baking a cake for the Westboro Baptist Church or a black baker from baking a cake for a white power party. He is not supporting discrimination, he is opposing governmental force.

Maybe so, but the state governments do have the right to make and enforce anti-discrimination laws and policies. These laws were adopted so that people like this do not discriminate, as we are not a theocracy. Unless you are a religious institution, you follow the same laws as anyone else, so the law is not discriminating or preventing him from practicing his religion.

Also, the point of contention is refusing service to a person based on who they are, not the objection to the item requested.

 

[saveliberty]

In your hypothetical printing business. Business discriminate all the time based in distance, pricing, language and many other factors.

This, class, is what is known as equivocation.

It is called reality. I can't deliver a product or service to someone in my business location at the same price it may take to transport it elsewhere. My business may not allow for a bilingual employee, so working with another language may be a barrier.