Fixing Tax Loopholes, 51% of Americans Pay NO Incomes Taxes

[saveliberty]

Susan has quite the ability to use graphs which have no bearing on the subject she claims to prove. You do realize that your chart represents 100% of the people who don't pay taxes? That is actually even not the case as illegals are no where on the graph. Unless your retarded enough to believe they all pay their taxes.

 

[Trajan]

So what?

I'm tired of socialism for the rich.
I'm tired of paying for corporations to build war machines to persecute wars against people that did nothing to us.
I'm tired of the rich deciding the outcomes of US elections via court appointments and unlimited funding.

That was never the way the founding fathers intended it. In fact they fought tooth and nail against that very outcome.

I'm tired of paying for corporations to build war machines to persecute wars against people that did nothing to us.

sing it brother!!

‪Black Sabbath - War Pigs‬‏ - YouTube

Good song.

You should take the lyrics to heart.

then get back on your meds.

 

[Big Fitz]

I wonder. If income tax does not affect the wealthy since they do not have income per say, why then it would help the wealthy as well?

 

[Polk]

It's a simply answered question actually. First refer to the Laffer Curve.

Laffer curve - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It's a wiki, but it makes the basics clear.

Taxes must find an equilibrium. A balance between income and burden that maximizes both the freedom of the people as well as cover the needs of the state. This is why we have a spending problem in this nation. The government has grown cancerous and bloated and needs to be cut back massively. Every power not given in the constitution should be cut back and given over to the states as is proper.

As for lower taxes, you decrease both the impetus and profitability of avoiding them and therefore increase revenues paid. This is also why simplifying a tax code is better because you cut away all sorts of ways for people to avoid taxes, save fleeing jurisdiction, which the wealthy can do if they feel that they are being unjustly or unfairly charged. There is so much precedent for this working it would take a dedicated fool to deny it.

Supply side works if you provide a beneficial place to invest and not to flee. Currently the economic environment here is poor at best, dangerous at worst. If you make it a good place for people to invest in this nation, and make it harder for them to do so off shore, money will return. That is the point of setting good economic policy and why Cal Coolidge said it best:

"The business of America, is Business."

The problem with the Laffer Curve argument is that it rests on the assumption we're to the right of the maxima. There isn't any evidence to support that claim.

Just as there is no evidence that the Laffer (Laugher) Curve works at all and many people have debunked the claim that it does work.

IMO it is just more of the magical thinking of the RW. How can it be anything but magic to think that lower taxes bring in more revenues. Just checking out Reagan and Bush tax cuts show that the cuts caused a decline in revenues.

So what I think is that the RW believes in the Laffer Curve and then they believe that the invisible hand waves itself over it and in moments it works.

If there's one thing that economists agree on, it's that these claims are false. We're not talking just ivory-tower lefties. Virtually every economics Ph.D. who has worked in a prominent role in the Bush Administration acknowledges that the tax cuts enacted during the past six years have not paid for themselves--and were never intended to. Harvard professor Greg Mankiw, chairman of Bush's Council of Economic Advisers from 2003 to 2005, even devotes a section of his best-selling economics textbook to debunking the claim that tax cuts increase revenues.

Read more: Tax Cuts Don't Boost Revenues - TIME

Jay Bookman
The Laffer Curve debunked; Part One
The Laffer Curve debunked; Part One | Jay Bookman

Jay Bookman
The Laffer Curve in real life

In conclusion, in all three categories central to the claim of supply-side proponents, the economy performed significantly better in the wake of tax increases than it did in the wake of major tax cuts.
The Laffer Curve in real life | Jay Bookman

There is no real data the the Laffer Curve works and plenty to show it doesn't.

The concept is a lot older than Laffer (which is why it's weird that it's called the Laffer Curve) and it's something that makes sense from a philosophical perspective. There is a certainly a point where the people would prefer not to work if they don't get to share in the output. The thing is, that point is a lot higher than many on the right believe it is.

 

[appleannie1]

All the attention being showered on “47 percent” is ultimately a distraction from that reality.

The 47 percent number is not wrong. The stimulus programs of the last two years — the first one signed by President George W. Bush, the second and larger one by President Obama — have increased the number of households that receive enough of a tax credit to wipe out their federal income tax liability.

But the modifiers here — federal and income — are important. Income taxes aren’t the only kind of federal taxes that people pay. There are also payroll taxes and investment taxes, among others. And, of course, people pay state and local taxes, too.

Even if the discussion is restricted to federal taxes (for which the statistics are better), a vast majority of households end up paying federal taxes. Congressional Budget Office data suggests that, at most, about 10 percent of all households pay no net federal taxes. The number 10 is obviously a lot smaller than 47.

The reason is that poor families generally pay more in payroll taxes than they receive through benefits like the Earned Income Tax Credit. It’s not just poor families for whom the payroll tax is a big deal, either. About three-quarters of all American households pay more in payroll taxes, which go toward Medicare and Social Security, than in income taxes.
Yes, 47% of Households Owe No Taxes. Look Closer. - NYTimes.com

 

[Big Fitz]

The problem with the Laffer Curve argument is that it rests on the assumption we're to the right of the maxima. There isn't any evidence to support that claim.

Just as there is no evidence that the Laffer (Laugher) Curve works at all and many people have debunked the claim that it does work.

IMO it is just more of the magical thinking of the RW. How can it be anything but magic to think that lower taxes bring in more revenues. Just checking out Reagan and Bush tax cuts show that the cuts caused a decline in revenues.

So what I think is that the RW believes in the Laffer Curve and then they believe that the invisible hand waves itself over it and in moments it works.

If there's one thing that economists agree on, it's that these claims are false. We're not talking just ivory-tower lefties. Virtually every economics Ph.D. who has worked in a prominent role in the Bush Administration acknowledges that the tax cuts enacted during the past six years have not paid for themselves--and were never intended to. Harvard professor Greg Mankiw, chairman of Bush's Council of Economic Advisers from 2003 to 2005, even devotes a section of his best-selling economics textbook to debunking the claim that tax cuts increase revenues.

Read more: Tax Cuts Don't Boost Revenues - TIME

Jay Bookman
The Laffer Curve debunked; Part One
The Laffer Curve debunked; Part One | Jay Bookman

Jay Bookman
The Laffer Curve in real life

In conclusion, in all three categories central to the claim of supply-side proponents, the economy performed significantly better in the wake of tax increases than it did in the wake of major tax cuts.
The Laffer Curve in real life | Jay Bookman

There is no real data the the Laffer Curve works and plenty to show it doesn't.

The concept is a lot older than Laffer (which is why it's weird that it's called the Laffer Curve) and it's something that makes sense from a philosophical perspective. There is a certainly a point where the people would prefer not to work if they don't get to share in the output. The thing is, that point is a lot higher than many on the right believe it is.

yes but you also don't believe that we have a spending problem with the federal government, so I'm not surprised you be more comfortable with the 'skewed' laffer curve which puts the balance point over at about 70% of income.

 

[Trajan]

You can always vote for someone who promises to raise taxes on those people.

q- do you think that lets call it a tax floor should be put on all earners where in they at the very least must pay their fica contributions?

That's complicated because it makes the assumption that an earned income credit or the like on the income tax side pays off a payroll tax contribution on the SS/Medicare. Technically it does not.

well if someone has 2 kids and earns say 50K then takes the breaks they get, they can very well receive net money back, that would eat into the total payroll collections they paid...(?)*shrugs*

I don't know what my opinion of that is.

let me know when you formulate one.

 

[saveliberty]

I also find the liberal mind amusing when they claim the rich are not paying their taxes. This becomes a justification for taxing them more. Of course, the increase will somehow magically make them want to pay...more. Fact is they do pay and pay far more than the rest of us.

 

[saveliberty]

Curve, smurve. We have millions of people taking unemployment payments while they work. Where is the outrage? Certainly these folks are dodging taxes or they would lose their unemployment benefits.

 

[Big Fitz]

I also find the liberal mind amusing when they claim the rich are not paying their taxes. This becomes a justification for taxing them more. Of course, the increase will somehow magically make them want to pay...more. Fact is they do pay and pay far more than the rest of us.

and then slide exemptions and loopholes into the tax code for their friends to use instead of lowering it on everyone and eliminating the loopholes. Of course the tactic of using the tax code as a social engineering tool is a century old art.

 

[saveliberty]

I also find the liberal mind amusing when they claim the rich are not paying their taxes. This becomes a justification for taxing them more. Of course, the increase will somehow magically make them want to pay...more. Fact is they do pay and pay far more than the rest of us.

and then slide exemptions and loopholes into the tax code for their friends to use instead of lowering it on everyone and eliminating the loopholes. Of course the tactic of using the tax code as a social engineering tool is a century old art.

The really brassy ones don't pay until they get offered a federal job...

 

[Polk]

Just as there is no evidence that the Laffer (Laugher) Curve works at all and many people have debunked the claim that it does work.

IMO it is just more of the magical thinking of the RW. How can it be anything but magic to think that lower taxes bring in more revenues. Just checking out Reagan and Bush tax cuts show that the cuts caused a decline in revenues.

So what I think is that the RW believes in the Laffer Curve and then they believe that the invisible hand waves itself over it and in moments it works.

If there's one thing that economists agree on, it's that these claims are false. We're not talking just ivory-tower lefties. Virtually every economics Ph.D. who has worked in a prominent role in the Bush Administration acknowledges that the tax cuts enacted during the past six years have not paid for themselves--and were never intended to. Harvard professor Greg Mankiw, chairman of Bush's Council of Economic Advisers from 2003 to 2005, even devotes a section of his best-selling economics textbook to debunking the claim that tax cuts increase revenues.

Read more: Tax Cuts Don't Boost Revenues - TIME

Jay Bookman
The Laffer Curve debunked; Part One
The Laffer Curve debunked; Part One | Jay Bookman

Jay Bookman
The Laffer Curve in real life

In conclusion, in all three categories central to the claim of supply-side proponents, the economy performed significantly better in the wake of tax increases than it did in the wake of major tax cuts.
The Laffer Curve in real life | Jay Bookman

There is no real data the the Laffer Curve works and plenty to show it doesn't.

The concept is a lot older than Laffer (which is why it's weird that it's called the Laffer Curve) and it's something that makes sense from a philosophical perspective. There is a certainly a point where the people would prefer not to work if they don't get to share in the output. The thing is, that point is a lot higher than many on the right believe it is.

yes but you also don't believe that we have a spending problem with the federal government, so I'm not surprised you be more comfortable with the 'skewed' laffer curve which puts the balance point over at about 70% of income.

I've stated previously that my preferred budget solution is a balanced approach, so it's odd to claim I don't think we need to reduce spending. And of course it's not surprising that I'm "comfortable" with research and evidence.

 

[shintao]

I also find the liberal mind amusing when they claim the rich are not paying their taxes. This becomes a justification for taxing them more. Of course, the increase will somehow magically make them want to pay...more. Fact is they do pay and pay far more than the rest of us.

That because they are not paying their taxes laughing boy................

 

[Big Fitz]

I also find the liberal mind amusing when they claim the rich are not paying their taxes. This becomes a justification for taxing them more. Of course, the increase will somehow magically make them want to pay...more. Fact is they do pay and pay far more than the rest of us.

and then slide exemptions and loopholes into the tax code for their friends to use instead of lowering it on everyone and eliminating the loopholes. Of course the tactic of using the tax code as a social engineering tool is a century old art.

The really brassy ones don't pay until they get offered a federal job...

Ahh the Timmy Geithner plan. Then it's just 'a mistake'.

 

[Too Tall]

I guess that explains why roughly half of all Americans want taxes to be increased.

I suggest that 99.9% of that roughly half of all Americans that want taxes increased want them increased on someone other than themselves.

 

[Too Tall]

What is fair?

I find it hard to believe taxes can generate so much ignorant speculation. Few want to pay taxes, and those that do want the taxes to benefit them, not necessarily anyone else.

Taxes and fees take up a good deal of the income of the average wage earner in America. Everyone whines about raising taxes yet there is no hue and cry when banks raise fees and interest rates on loans, and still pay historically low interest on savings.

Some want a simple tax, everyone pays 10% of all sources of income without any deductions. What might be the consequences of such a plan? Think real hard. How many people are employed in the financial services industry? Hell, Mitt Romney might have to actually work, yikes. Imagine the howl when organized religion is faced with obtaining donations when the donation is no longer deductable.

And what of the spread between the haves and have nots? Imagine in ten years how much wider the spread between what the Koch Brothers get to keep and you get to keep with this 'fair' tax. Not only wealth, but the influence brothers Kock will have thanks to the collective 'wisdom' of Messers. Roberts, Alito, Thomas, Scalia and Kennedy.

Fools march in and join the cocophony of thoughtless rhetoric from the New Right. Be careful what you wish for, plutocracy is not the way to greater freedom and liberty.

Bullshit on your class war fare. The KOCh brothers will spend more in taxes for the yacht they buy then you will in your lifetime. asswipe.

Are we supposed to feel sorry for them because of that?

No, we are supposed to be happy for all of the people that made a living building that yacht.

 

[AVG-JOE]

I'd like to keep my employer out of it. Apart from documenting the money I'm paid, my dealings with the government should be none of their business. 'Withholding' is one of the worst aspects of the current income tax code.

I like the painless savings aspect of payroll deduction.

That's exactly what makes it evil. When it's removed from your paycheck and you never see it it's painless. When people feel the pain, they question what it's being spent on. Otherwise one day you wake up and have a $1.6 Trillion deficit...

How many of us would think differently about our health insurance if we had to write a check every month for the FULL amount, including what our employer pays on our behalf?

For me and AVG-WIFE, the value = $620 per month.

 

[Big Fitz]

I like the painless savings aspect of payroll deduction.

That's exactly what makes it evil. When it's removed from your paycheck and you never see it it's painless. When people feel the pain, they question what it's being spent on. Otherwise one day you wake up and have a $1.6 Trillion deficit...

How many of us would think differently about our health insurance if we had to write a check every month for the FULL amount, including what our employer pays on our behalf?

For me and AVG-WIFE, the value = $620 per month.

Most people would have a cast iron fit that it was as high or worse than their rent/mortgage. They'd start shopping for alternatives.

THIS is what SHOULD happen and why 3rd party payers should not be allowed in the system. It hides waste and inflated prices. And before FDR, this is the way it was.

 

[NYcarbineer]

q- do you think that lets call it a tax floor should be put on all earners where in they at the very least must pay their fica contributions?

well if someone has 2 kids and earns say 50K then takes the breaks they get, they can very well receive net money back, that would eat into the total payroll collections they paid...(?)*shrugs*

I don't know what my opinion of that is.

let me know when you formulate one.

It's moot because changing it would constitute a tax increase and the Republicans are under orders from Grover Norquist not to support any tax increase.

btw, they cut the payroll tax in the December tax bill, while everyone's howling about SS and Medicare going broke.

 

[NYcarbineer]

[



well if someone has 2 kids and earns say 50K then takes the breaks they get, they can very well receive net money back, that would eat into the total payroll collections they paid...(?)*shrugs*

I suppose, if you could eliminate all other possible offsets, such as federal gas taxes, utility surcharges, state taxes going to federal mandated spending, cigarette taxes, etc., etc.,

then I guess you could claim that the EIC offset the payroll tax.