Factcheck.org: judging Obama's presidency based on FACTS not hyperbole or rhetoric

[aaronleland]

I'm not making the charge that the "official" unemployment numbers are a lie, Aaron but I will say that anyone using THAT number as proof that the economy is getting better is cherry picking something to make Obama look less bad...while ignoring some others that make him look awful. That workplace participation graph is hard to explain if you're making the contention that the unemployment situation has improved significantly.

I think we agree for the most part. The intent of my first post wasn't to defend the government's claims, but to point out ShootSpeeders' lack of evidence for his claims. One of my pet peeves is watching extreme partisans come into an argument with "LIES", while providing no facts of their own to back it up with.

So rdean and Franco must tick you off, odd I don't see you challenging them.

Both repeat the same things over and over again in every post, no matter what the topic. What point is there in challenging "hater pubs dupes?"

 

[Papageorgio]

I think we agree for the most part. The intent of my first post wasn't to defend the government's claims, but to point out ShootSpeeders' lack of evidence for his claims. One of my pet peeves is watching extreme partisans come into an argument with "LIES", while providing no facts of their own to back it up with.

So rdean and Franco must tick you off, odd I don't see you challenging them.

Both repeat the same things over and over again in every post, no matter what the topic. What point is there in challenging "hater pubs dupes?"

And shootSpeeders repeat the same thing over and over again, what is the point?

Personally, I find you to be consistent in your beliefs. Kudos!

 

[Trajan]

This thread is partly inspired by welfarequeen's poll on how USMB members grade Obama's presidency. The large majority of you gave Obama an F which, in my opinion, is completely unfair and is an obvious indication of willful ignorance.

This is a fair and balanced assessment of how the country has faired under Obama. They are based upon numbers only. Subjective criticism such as his character or leadership skills are not in this article. I highlighted in bold what I consider to be important points. Keep in mind that these figures only represent what has happened UNDER Obama. Which means many factors influence them. Not just Obama.

America is still gaining jobs under President Obama, but millions more live in poverty, typical household incomes have not kept pace with inflation, and the federal debt is up nearly 90 percent and on pace to double before he leaves office. Stockholders, meanwhile, are far wealthier than they were the day he was sworn in.
U.S. oil production continues to boom, as do wind and solar power, while dependence on foreign oil keeps dropping. International opinion of the United States has slipped a bit, but generally remains far higher than before he took office, except in the Muslim world, where it has gotten even worse.

These are among the findings in our latest update of “Obama’s Numbers.”

This is another in our series of regular quarterly updates of key statistical indicators of the Obama presidency. It follows our “Obama’s Numbers” article in October, a pre-election update we posted Nov. 5, and quarterly updates posted April 16 and July 19.
The mix of statistics in these reports will vary. This update includes income and poverty figures that are issued annually, for example. We select other figures that are available monthly or quarterly depending on what we judge to be most topical. Our intent is to provide accurate measures of what’s changed — for better or worse — since Obama first took office in January 2009.


– by Brooks Jackson

Obama?s Numbers, October Update

To me the trick is determining how much Obama's policies have influenced these economic numbers. And of course not just him, but Congress as well.

My take on the economy: Things could be better with 7.3% unemployment. However, the economy went into a free fall in 2007. 100,000s of jobs were being lost each month up. The unemployment rate may have gone up under Obama, but there is no denying that Obama has created more jobs than Bush did in his entire 8 years. In other words, a president only has so much control over a nation's economy. In my perspective, the higher unemployment rate has very little to do with Obama's policies. Could he have done more to repair the problem? Maybe, but our do-nothing congress has contributed a great deal to this. Republicans, historically since 2000, have done NOTHING to improve the economy.

we have a guy here I respect a lot, we made an agreement back in 2010 that due to the type of downturn, we can call it a balance sheet recession, he ( obama) should be given more time, than say bush got with the hangover from the dot.com bubble etc. or the Reagan recession which had different characteristics etc. Fine, he said 5 years would be a more judicious timeline to judge its recovery. ( oh and I would be the first to admit the bush economy wasn't exactly boom years, we did alright ....)

I think he had a point, that being said; ( in fairness TARP etc. started before he actually took office) so lets call it 4.75 years, so even allowing for another 3 months? where does that put us?

Stop using Bush as an excuse please, along with the recession Obama inherited also came extraordinary powers, neither Reagan Clinton or Bush had. He has had the power and time to do what he thought would drive us back to growth...I think we can agree that sub 3% gdp and 35 year lows in LPR are not driving us to growth, we are basically marking time.

 

[Moonglow]

This thread is partly inspired by welfarequeen's poll on how USMB members grade Obama's presidency. The large majority of you gave Obama an F which, in my opinion, is completely unfair and is an obvious indication of willful ignorance.

Not ignorance, just hate.

 

[aaronleland]

So rdean and Franco must tick you off, odd I don't see you challenging them.

Both repeat the same things over and over again in every post, no matter what the topic. What point is there in challenging "hater pubs dupes?"

And shootSpeeders repeat the same thing over and over again, what is the point?

Personally, I find you to be consistent in your beliefs. Kudos!

In all fairness, ShootSpeeders doesn't always repeat the same thing over and over again. For instance, in the post I responded to he even mentioned illegals without insulting them.

 

[Avatar4321]

Please, if you cared at all about facts you never would have elected this disaster to begin with.

 

[Papageorgio]

This thread is partly inspired by welfarequeen's poll on how USMB members grade Obama's presidency. The large majority of you gave Obama an F which, in my opinion, is completely unfair and is an obvious indication of willful ignorance.

Not ignorance, just hate.

It is a different belief system. I don't agree with his economic policies. I don't agree with the way he handles the American people, I don't believe he wants to unite, he wants to force and expect people to just follow.

I don't hate, I think he would be informative to talk to and know but I don't agree with policy.

 

[Billy000]

Under Obama poverty is much worse than Bush. Our standing in the world has declined. The number of people on public assistance has exploded. The Federal debt has exploded. Those are the main facts of the OP's story.

Those thing are measurable.

What is not measurable is much worse for Obama. The fact he lied about about almost every facet of Obamacare in order to get it passed has been a huge hit to his credibility, and will be a massive stain on his legacy. The fact he greatly escalated Bush's domestic spying program and then lied to Congress and the American people about it. The fact he made closing Gitmo a major campaign theme and hammered Bush on the issue, and then reneged on his promise.

The "fact check" posted by the OP is garbage (not the op's fault). It is something put together by an Obama apologist that tries to give the appearance of being fair....while largely ignoring the character lapses and failures of Obama that now have a majority American's actively distrusting him.

Most "fact check" things are complete bullshit...as the "fact checker" only looks at those facts they choose to, and then, only through a lens which helps make their political point. Do not be fooled.

I don't understand why you do not take into account the 2007 recession. Yes obviously quality of life is going to be worse under Obama. Shit went bad a year before he came into office. That is not Obama's fault. Since then Obama has created 2.5 more jobs than Bush ever did. You want to put the blame on someone for the increased poverty? Blame the corporations. They have had record profits with stagnant wages. Obama tried to raise the minimum wage. And yeah, because of an increase in poverty, more people are on government assistance. That's just a consequence.

I appreciate your approach to this thread. For the record, the recession of 2007 happened under Bush's watch, obviously, and history will judge him to be responsible. I think that is basically fair, but I will say people like Barney Frank and Chris Dodd covering for Fannie and Freddie, and taking big money from the financial industry were a major part of the problem.

As for Obama's job's record. Keep telling yourself that shit. The jobs created generally suck, and the economy sucks. The real unemployment rate under Obama is over 14%. The cheerleaders who did your "fact check," failed to mention the real total employment rate is the lowest it has been since the Jimmy Carter years. Since 1980. No amount of spin can make Obama's job record look good. Every reasonable person in America knows it sucks.

No one is denying the economy still sucks. Do you really think a different president could have done much better? Based on what? This economic downturn is unlike any in history. Even economists do not fully understand how things could have gotten so bad.

So in your mind Obama is a failure. What's Bush? A super failure? Your pessimism is unfair. Give Obama credit for something.

 

[Oldstyle]

I'm not making the charge that the "official" unemployment numbers are a lie, Aaron but I will say that anyone using THAT number as proof that the economy is getting better is cherry picking something to make Obama look less bad...while ignoring some others that make him look awful. That workplace participation graph is hard to explain if you're making the contention that the unemployment situation has improved significantly.

I think we agree for the most part. The intent of my first post wasn't to defend the government's claims, but to point out ShootSpeeders' lack of evidence for his claims. One of my pet peeves is watching extreme partisans come into an argument with "LIES", while providing no facts of their own to back it up with.

Agree completely. To tell you the truth I was rather bemused by Billy's initial claim to be examining Barack Obama's Presidency without hyperbole because he then produced a post that was pretty much ALL hyperbole! LOL

Look, I'm a fiscal conservative who's moderate on social issues. I don't think Obama is a communist and I don't think he's trying to destroy the country. What I DO think is that he was completely unprepared for the job he was given by a main stream media who projected onto him qualities that he simply doesn't possess and we as a nation have been paying the price for that ever since.

 

[Oldstyle]

I don't understand why you do not take into account the 2007 recession. Yes obviously quality of life is going to be worse under Obama. Shit went bad a year before he came into office. That is not Obama's fault. Since then Obama has created 2.5 more jobs than Bush ever did. You want to put the blame on someone for the increased poverty? Blame the corporations. They have had record profits with stagnant wages. Obama tried to raise the minimum wage. And yeah, because of an increase in poverty, more people are on government assistance. That's just a consequence.

I appreciate your approach to this thread. For the record, the recession of 2007 happened under Bush's watch, obviously, and history will judge him to be responsible. I think that is basically fair, but I will say people like Barney Frank and Chris Dodd covering for Fannie and Freddie, and taking big money from the financial industry were a major part of the problem.

As for Obama's job's record. Keep telling yourself that shit. The jobs created generally suck, and the economy sucks. The real unemployment rate under Obama is over 14%. The cheerleaders who did your "fact check," failed to mention the real total employment rate is the lowest it has been since the Jimmy Carter years. Since 1980. No amount of spin can make Obama's job record look good. Every reasonable person in America knows it sucks.

No one is denying the economy still sucks. Do you really think a different president could have done much better? Based on what? This economic downturn is unlike any in history. Even economists do not fully understand how things could have gotten so bad.

So in your mind Obama is a failure. What's Bush? A super failure? Your pessimism is unfair. Give Obama credit for something.

Yes, Billy...I really DO believe that Mitt Romney would be doing a better job than Barack Obama with the economy and I'd be happy to tell you WHY I feel that way!

I judge people solely on what they've DONE...not what they tell me they INTEND to do. Mitt Romney has a long history of turning around troubled organizations and making them function again. He also has a history of moderation and being able to forge compromise across party lines. To be blunt...I think he was uniquely qualified at this juncture to be President of the United States and I think we as a nation were idiotic not to recognize that fact.

 

[Oldstyle]

And Billy, this is a recession...a bad one granted...but a recession none the less. We've had numerous ones over the years and if you study them they generally behave in similar fashion. What makes THIS economic downturn so unusual is the lack of a "rebound". Economies WANT to bounce back...it's their nature yet year after year passes and the US economy grinds along without much growth at all. At some point don't you think it's fair to ask whether it's the lack of an economic plan going forward and proposals for things like Card Check, Cap & Trade, Greenhouse gas regulations, higher minimum wages or even "living wages", and a complete revamping of our healthcare system that have made the business climate so uncertain in the US that billions of dollars in private equity are sitting on the sidelines until it sorts itself out? Barack Obama is the guy in charge of this three ring circus! Nobody ever said that would be an easy job but he promised he was up for the challenge and was coming into office with a plan to fix things. It's five years later, Billy and I don't know what that "plan" is now. Do you?

 

[WelfareQueen]

I don't understand why you do not take into account the 2007 recession. Yes obviously quality of life is going to be worse under Obama. Shit went bad a year before he came into office. That is not Obama's fault. Since then Obama has created 2.5 more jobs than Bush ever did. You want to put the blame on someone for the increased poverty? Blame the corporations. They have had record profits with stagnant wages. Obama tried to raise the minimum wage. And yeah, because of an increase in poverty, more people are on government assistance. That's just a consequence.

I appreciate your approach to this thread. For the record, the recession of 2007 happened under Bush's watch, obviously, and history will judge him to be responsible. I think that is basically fair, but I will say people like Barney Frank and Chris Dodd covering for Fannie and Freddie, and taking big money from the financial industry were a major part of the problem.

As for Obama's job's record. Keep telling yourself that shit. The jobs created generally suck, and the economy sucks. The real unemployment rate under Obama is over 14%. The cheerleaders who did your "fact check," failed to mention the real total employment rate is the lowest it has been since the Jimmy Carter years. Since 1980. No amount of spin can make Obama's job record look good. Every reasonable person in America knows it sucks.

No one is denying the economy still sucks. Do you really think a different president could have done much better? Based on what? This economic downturn is unlike any in history. Even economists do not fully understand how things could have gotten so bad.

So in your mind Obama is a failure. What's Bush? A super failure? Your pessimism is unfair. Give Obama credit for something.

I think Obama's policies have created a great deal of uncertainty which has kept down hiring. But, to be fair, the globalization of the world economy means many good American jobs continue to be shipped overseas to places like India and China. Those are jobs we will probably never see again.

I hold both Democrats and Republicans equally responsible for it the globalization clusterfuck. Both Party's have taken the corporate money and sold the rest of us down the river.

 

[Billy000]

I appreciate your approach to this thread. For the record, the recession of 2007 happened under Bush's watch, obviously, and history will judge him to be responsible. I think that is basically fair, but I will say people like Barney Frank and Chris Dodd covering for Fannie and Freddie, and taking big money from the financial industry were a major part of the problem.

As for Obama's job's record. Keep telling yourself that shit. The jobs created generally suck, and the economy sucks. The real unemployment rate under Obama is over 14%. The cheerleaders who did your "fact check," failed to mention the real total employment rate is the lowest it has been since the Jimmy Carter years. Since 1980. No amount of spin can make Obama's job record look good. Every reasonable person in America knows it sucks.

No one is denying the economy still sucks. Do you really think a different president could have done much better? Based on what? This economic downturn is unlike any in history. Even economists do not fully understand how things could have gotten so bad.

So in your mind Obama is a failure. What's Bush? A super failure? Your pessimism is unfair. Give Obama credit for something.

I think Obama's policies have created a great deal of uncertainty which has kept down hiring. But, to be fair, the globalization of the world economy means many good American jobs continue to be shipped overseas to places like India and China. Those are jobs we will probably never see again.

I hold both Democrats and Republicans equally responsible for it the globalization clusterfuck. Both Party's have taken the corporate money and sold the rest of us down the river.

What certainty? Explain how Obama has created uncertainty. Profits are at an all time high. Why they can't hire more based on that is beyond me.

Let's also not forget that there are many jobs available that can't be filled because there is lack of people qualified for them. Obama tried fixing this problem by proposing job training programs at community colleges. But, of course, Repubs blocked it.

 

[Billy000]

And Billy, this is a recession...a bad one granted...but a recession none the less. We've had numerous ones over the years and if you study them they generally behave in similar fashion. What makes THIS economic downturn so unusual is the lack of a "rebound". Economies WANT to bounce back...it's their nature yet year after year passes and the US economy grinds along without much growth at all. At some point don't you think it's fair to ask whether it's the lack of an economic plan going forward and proposals for things like Card Check, Cap & Trade, Greenhouse gas regulations, higher minimum wages or even "living wages", and a complete revamping of our healthcare system that have made the business climate so uncertain in the US that billions of dollars in private equity are sitting on the sidelines until it sorts itself out? Barack Obama is the guy in charge of this three ring circus! Nobody ever said that would be an easy job but he promised he was up for the challenge and was coming into office with a plan to fix things. It's five years later, Billy and I don't know what that "plan" is now. Do you?

He did have a plan. The stimulus. What have Repubs tried? Supply side economics? Yeah that doesn't work. That's a proven fact.

And I'll say it again, corporate profits are at an all time high...

 

[Papageorgio]

I don't understand why you do not take into account the 2007 recession. Yes obviously quality of life is going to be worse under Obama. Shit went bad a year before he came into office. That is not Obama's fault. Since then Obama has created 2.5 more jobs than Bush ever did. You want to put the blame on someone for the increased poverty? Blame the corporations. They have had record profits with stagnant wages. Obama tried to raise the minimum wage. And yeah, because of an increase in poverty, more people are on government assistance. That's just a consequence.

I appreciate your approach to this thread. For the record, the recession of 2007 happened under Bush's watch, obviously, and history will judge him to be responsible. I think that is basically fair, but I will say people like Barney Frank and Chris Dodd covering for Fannie and Freddie, and taking big money from the financial industry were a major part of the problem.

As for Obama's job's record. Keep telling yourself that shit. The jobs created generally suck, and the economy sucks. The real unemployment rate under Obama is over 14%. The cheerleaders who did your "fact check," failed to mention the real total employment rate is the lowest it has been since the Jimmy Carter years. Since 1980. No amount of spin can make Obama's job record look good. Every reasonable person in America knows it sucks.

No one is denying the economy still sucks. Do you really think a different president could have done much better? Based on what? This economic downturn is unlike any in history. Even economists do not fully understand how things could have gotten so bad.

So in your mind Obama is a failure. What's Bush? A super failure? Your pessimism is unfair. Give Obama credit for something.

Bush was ok his first term, failure in his second, Obama is a failure both terms.

 

[Billy000]

I appreciate your approach to this thread. For the record, the recession of 2007 happened under Bush's watch, obviously, and history will judge him to be responsible. I think that is basically fair, but I will say people like Barney Frank and Chris Dodd covering for Fannie and Freddie, and taking big money from the financial industry were a major part of the problem.

As for Obama's job's record. Keep telling yourself that shit. The jobs created generally suck, and the economy sucks. The real unemployment rate under Obama is over 14%. The cheerleaders who did your "fact check," failed to mention the real total employment rate is the lowest it has been since the Jimmy Carter years. Since 1980. No amount of spin can make Obama's job record look good. Every reasonable person in America knows it sucks.

No one is denying the economy still sucks. Do you really think a different president could have done much better? Based on what? This economic downturn is unlike any in history. Even economists do not fully understand how things could have gotten so bad.

So in your mind Obama is a failure. What's Bush? A super failure? Your pessimism is unfair. Give Obama credit for something.

Bush was ok his first term, failure in his second, Obama is a failure both terms.

Well obviously you are being disingenuous because his presidency is in year 5.

 

[Oldstyle]

No one is denying the economy still sucks. Do you really think a different president could have done much better? Based on what? This economic downturn is unlike any in history. Even economists do not fully understand how things could have gotten so bad.

So in your mind Obama is a failure. What's Bush? A super failure? Your pessimism is unfair. Give Obama credit for something.

I think Obama's policies have created a great deal of uncertainty which has kept down hiring. But, to be fair, the globalization of the world economy means many good American jobs continue to be shipped overseas to places like India and China. Those are jobs we will probably never see again.

I hold both Democrats and Republicans equally responsible for it the globalization clusterfuck. Both Party's have taken the corporate money and sold the rest of us down the river.

What certainty? Explain how Obama has created uncertainty. Profits are at an all time high. Why they can't hire more based on that is beyond me.

Billy, think about this from the viewpoint of an executive of a large corporation that is looking to build a brand new factory to produce "widgets" and will be hiring somewhere in the neighborhood of 2,000 people to work at this factory.

You've got obligations to your stockholders to make a profit. In truth your JOB depends on that! If you don't make the stockholders money you WILL be out on your ear.

So here are your choices when you and your team sit down to discuss this. You can build the new factory in the United States or you can build it in India or China. To build it in the US you have one of the highest corporate taxes in the world...something that's not there in India or China. So right off the bat you'll be making less profits in the US because you'll be paying more in taxes. Then one of your best and brightest analysts brings up the fact that your widget factory will be consuming a large amount of energy. he raises the specter of the EPA once again being allowed to enforce new green house gas regulations on factories. That makes everyone at the table wince trying to figure out what THAT might do to costs. Then someone else points out that the Obama Administration has stacked the Labor Relations Board with far left unionists and brings up the problems THAT will present if the widget machinist's union were to ask for mediation on wages or working conditions. Fat chance of getting a favorable ruling there someone points out. Then another person brings up the calls for minimum wage increases and how if minimum wages go up then other wages will go up as well. You look at your head bean counter and ask for an estimate of what THAT will cost the bottom line. In response you get a shrug and a "God knows, Boss...it could be huge."

So tell me, Billy...if you were a betting man? What are the odds that factory will be built anywhere ELSE but in the US after that kind of a meeting? THAT is why jobs aren't being created under this Administration. Industry is either sitting out the recovery or they are taking their business elsewhere. That's reality.

 

[Oldstyle]

And Billy, this is a recession...a bad one granted...but a recession none the less. We've had numerous ones over the years and if you study them they generally behave in similar fashion. What makes THIS economic downturn so unusual is the lack of a "rebound". Economies WANT to bounce back...it's their nature yet year after year passes and the US economy grinds along without much growth at all. At some point don't you think it's fair to ask whether it's the lack of an economic plan going forward and proposals for things like Card Check, Cap & Trade, Greenhouse gas regulations, higher minimum wages or even "living wages", and a complete revamping of our healthcare system that have made the business climate so uncertain in the US that billions of dollars in private equity are sitting on the sidelines until it sorts itself out? Barack Obama is the guy in charge of this three ring circus! Nobody ever said that would be an easy job but he promised he was up for the challenge and was coming into office with a plan to fix things. It's five years later, Billy and I don't know what that "plan" is now. Do you?

He did have a plan. The stimulus. What have Repubs tried? Supply side economics? Yeah that doesn't work. That's a proven fact.

And I'll say it again, corporate profits are at an all time high...

Billy, please...you're embarrassing yourself. If the Stimulus worked then why did the Obama folks start using a new economic statistic "Jobs created or saved" I'll give you a hint...you don't do that if the economic numbers look good...you do that if they look terrible and you're trying to obscure that fact.

 

[Papageorgio]

And Billy, this is a recession...a bad one granted...but a recession none the less. We've had numerous ones over the years and if you study them they generally behave in similar fashion. What makes THIS economic downturn so unusual is the lack of a "rebound". Economies WANT to bounce back...it's their nature yet year after year passes and the US economy grinds along without much growth at all. At some point don't you think it's fair to ask whether it's the lack of an economic plan going forward and proposals for things like Card Check, Cap & Trade, Greenhouse gas regulations, higher minimum wages or even "living wages", and a complete revamping of our healthcare system that have made the business climate so uncertain in the US that billions of dollars in private equity are sitting on the sidelines until it sorts itself out? Barack Obama is the guy in charge of this three ring circus! Nobody ever said that would be an easy job but he promised he was up for the challenge and was coming into office with a plan to fix things. It's five years later, Billy and I don't know what that "plan" is now. Do you?

He did have a plan. The stimulus. What have Repubs tried? Supply side economics? Yeah that doesn't work. That's a proven fact.

And I'll say it again, corporate profits are at an all time high...

And he never went after the bankers or any of the others that put us into a recession, did he? So, Obama doesn't give a shit about you or I only the corporate buddies.

 

[Billy000]

I think Obama's policies have created a great deal of uncertainty which has kept down hiring. But, to be fair, the globalization of the world economy means many good American jobs continue to be shipped overseas to places like India and China. Those are jobs we will probably never see again.

I hold both Democrats and Republicans equally responsible for it the globalization clusterfuck. Both Party's have taken the corporate money and sold the rest of us down the river.

What certainty? Explain how Obama has created uncertainty. Profits are at an all time high. Why they can't hire more based on that is beyond me.

Billy, think about this from the viewpoint of an executive of a large corporation that is looking to build a brand new factory to produce "widgets" and will be hiring somewhere in the neighborhood of 2,000 people to work at this factory.

You've got obligations to your stockholders to make a profit. In truth your JOB depends on that! If you don't make the stockholders money you WILL be out on your ear.

So here are your choices when you and your team sit down to discuss this. You can build the new factory in the United States or you can build it in India or China. To build it in the US you have one of the highest corporate taxes in the world...something that's not there in India or China. So right off the bat you'll be making less profits in the US because you'll be paying more in taxes. Then one of your best and brightest analysts brings up the fact that your widget factory will be consuming a large amount of energy. he raises the specter of the EPA once again being allowed to enforce new green house gas regulations on factories. That makes everyone at the table wince trying to figure out what THAT might do to costs. Then someone else points out that the Obama Administration has stacked the Labor Relations Board with far left unionists and brings up the problems THAT will present if the widget machinist's union were to ask for mediation on wages or working conditions. Fat chance of getting a favorable ruling there someone points out. Then another person brings up the calls for minimum wage increases and how if minimum wages go up then other wages will go up as well. You look at your head bean counter and ask for an estimate of what THAT will cost the bottom line. In response you get a shrug and a "God knows, Boss...it could be huge."

So tell me, Billy...if you were a betting man? What are the odds that factory will be built anywhere ELSE but in the US after that kind of a meeting? THAT is why jobs aren't being created under this Administration. Industry is either sitting out the recovery or they are taking their business elsewhere. That's reality.

And yet stockholders are richer than ever. Obama wanted to lower the corporate tax rate to 28% at one point. Give me the evidence that says EPA regulations have CAUSED economic harm.

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2013/07/3...oto&action=devloc&q=obama corporate tax rates