F-35s jets and S-400 missiles

Daryl Hunt

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Yes, use Wiki for all secrit information. Newsflash: The only radar that is affective at that range is low band and you can't use low band to target much less lock on with. UHF, no matter how you try and use it, is NOT low band. Now, unless the Russians have rescinded the laws of Physics. Wiki can be written and edited by anyone. I can do that myself. I can make it read anything I wish it to read. I just don't feel the need to correct it. Better for people like you to believe in a fairy tale.
No problem. It is not that I suggest you to believe Australians, but Carlo Kopp is rather clever and well informed guy. This report is a bit obsolet, but you can find it interesting.

http://www+++.ausairpower.net/APA-S-400-Triumf.html


(delete pluses)
But anyway, are you still sure, that sending F-35B with unguided bombs against the well prepared air defence is a good idea?
Nice article. Very informative. But it doesn't quite say the type of Radar the system uses. But I filled it in. The reason it works well against Jammers is that it uses AESA radar. Makes it hard to jam unless the other side uses a dirty jammer. The old Mig-23 Jammer was a dirty Jammer. Anything in front of it in a 60 degree arc was blind as a bat. Those went out of style decades ago. It seems that all you have to do is put a jammer seeker up it's radome and it's defeated. So AESA is the one to beat now. The F-35 can't defeat it but it can minimize the sensing and lockon range for AESA radar.

And you read in the narrative you want to to win an argument you have already lost. If the F-35B is going Mach 1.3 and drops a JDAM care to speculate the range of a JDAM? They invented a special JDAM just for the F-35B and C which has a shorter bay than the A. Now, put the A in there and you are going up against more sophisticated weapons with even more range. But I'll give you a hint. The fight starts at over 50 clicks for the B. The question is, can the S-400 system not only detect, lock on, come up with a firing solution and track the missile to conclusion at that range before the JDAM gets there from 55 clicks.
 

DrainBamage

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Good plan. For a few little exeptions.
First and most important - RAF don't have anything from this stuff.
Second. MALD-J are more jamming, their recon possibility is rather low. Range of S-400 is near 400 clicks, range for MALD-J - near 475 clicks, so, you must be very careful using it to recon positions of S-400.
Third. F-35B can't bear JSOW at all, and it can bear only 2x2 SDBs in its wealons bays.
Forth: Operational range of both SBDs and JSOW is not more than 110 clicks, that is obviously inside of S-400's operational range, so, there are good chances that the most of your F-35B will be shoot down even before they will open their bays.
Fifth: SDBs are good targets for Tunguska's, so 2x2x15=60 SDBs (even if they were launched) were intercepted.
First... I said any IADS can be defeated by air. You keep pigeon holing further to try to get results you want, now we're at a specific number of a certain plane flying for a certain nation. Let me repeat my argument: Any IADS can be defeated by air.

Second. Wrong, MALD-J is a decoy and a jammer. It flies in looking like attacking aircraft, IADS elements that search, track, and target emit, their locations become known and ripe for attack.

Third. Sorry forgot how much you narrow scenarios to get results you want, that's fine SDBs for the win.

Fourth. You have no idea what the effective range of an S-400 is against a LO aircraft.

Fifth: You have no idea how effective a Tunguska is against a glide bomb, yet are assuming they just shoot down everything that's in the air.



Sure. I said, that the duel scenarios like "isolated S-400 battalion" vs "isolated squadron of F-35B" are really uncommon and even weird.
Uncommon and weird is someone who believes they can prove tanks are more effective than aircraft at attacking IADS by saying they can only be attacked by a certain number of aircraft of a certain type. You know you're wrong when you must try so hard to invent fantastic scenarios to be right.

But it is not me, who suggested to send 15 almost unarmed F-35B in the frontal attack against fully equipped and covered S-400 battalion.
It's you who took "any IADS can be defeated by air" to mean F-35Bs that are almost unarmed.

Oh wait, now they are British too. WHat next a roster of the names of the pilots?
 
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DrainBamage

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Physics is not secret. F-35 and F-22 are "stealth" only for X-band radars. L-band (UNF) -radars see them quite well.

"The Protivnik-GE is an anti-stealth UHF radar with a 400-kilometre (250 mi) range.[27]The Moscow-1 passive sensor is 2 1⁄2 times more effective than the Protivnik, with a 400-kilometre (250 mi) range[28] Orion[29] for a target-designation on-the-air defence system, and the Avtobaza-M[30] and Orion+ Avtobaza adds high-precision detection. The 1RL220BE[20][31] versions were reportedly used for jamming.[32] "

S-400 missile system - Wikipedia
Detecting is one thing, tracking and targeting is another, and you sure don't know the effective range of either versus weapons that can be employed against them.


And British F-35B can use only unguided bombs and external pod gun against ground targets.
Wow, you're the first person I've seen who believes a Paveway 4, which can be both GPS and laser guided, is unguided.

You know JDAMs and SDBs are guided too right?
 

Daryl Hunt

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Physics is not secret. F-35 and F-22 are "stealth" only for X-band radars. L-band (UNF) -radars see them quite well.

"The Protivnik-GE is an anti-stealth UHF radar with a 400-kilometre (250 mi) range.[27]The Moscow-1 passive sensor is 2 1⁄2 times more effective than the Protivnik, with a 400-kilometre (250 mi) range[28] Orion[29] for a target-designation on-the-air defence system, and the Avtobaza-M[30] and Orion+ Avtobaza adds high-precision detection. The 1RL220BE[20][31] versions were reportedly used for jamming.[32] "

S-400 missile system - Wikipedia
Detecting is one thing, tracking and targeting is another, and you sure don't know the effective range of either versus weapons that can be employed against them.


And British F-35B can use only unguided bombs and external pod gun against ground targets.
Wow, you're the first person I've seen who believes a Paveway 4, which can be both GPS and laser guided, is unguided.

You know JDAMs and SDBs are guided too right?
And he keeps picking on the F-35B. Britain also purchased the more lethal A model which has a longer weapons bay and can carry even more lethal and longer ranged weapons. Let's give him a better target.

Let's have the F-35B take off from a long runway with full external stores and a centerline fuel tank (he is going to need one hell of a lot of runway to get off). When he gets to the combat area, he is to lower his flaps, open is bay doors and fly at 15,000 feet straight and slow (not too slow with that kind of load). Now he can have it his way.
 

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It is the most bizarre thing.

He has defended his claim that the best way to take out a IADS is to send tanks by dreaming up a situation where the only option to compare to those tanks is 15 F-35Bs from UK that are carrying unguided weapons, some marketing hype about untested S-400 capabilities, and the believe that planting a few AA vehicles in the area renders one invulnerable to bombs.
 

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It is the most bizarre thing.

He has defended his claim that the best way to take out a IADS is to send tanks by dreaming up a situation where the only option to compare to those tanks is 15 F-35Bs from UK that are carrying unguided weapons, some marketing hype about untested S-400 capabilities, and the believe that planting a few AA vehicles in the area renders one invulnerable to bombs.
No. It is just a scanario with best S-400 operators against the worst F-35 operators on the civilized, tank-friendly terrain. And yes, in this scenario, F-35B sucks.
I can suggest another one.
2022, Nikaragua. RAAN separatists (supported by a Chines "non-government organisation" are fighting against the new pro-US government and managed to stop their land forces. China supported them with few hundred of HJ-12 (Red Arrow-12) ATGMs, some PGZ-09 and even one old Russian S-400 complex in the minimal configuration.
The POTUS ordered to US Air Force to send in Nikaragua as many F-35A, as they need to win the war as soon as possible.
Yes, in this scenario S-400 (with mixed China-Latino crews) has less chances than a snowball in hell (and I don't mean "on the beach of Cocytus lake").
 

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Physics is not secret. F-35 and F-22 are "stealth" only for X-band radars. L-band (UNF) -radars see them quite well.

"The Protivnik-GE is an anti-stealth UHF radar with a 400-kilometre (250 mi) range.[27]The Moscow-1 passive sensor is 2 1⁄2 times more effective than the Protivnik, with a 400-kilometre (250 mi) range[28] Orion[29] for a target-designation on-the-air defence system, and the Avtobaza-M[30] and Orion+ Avtobaza adds high-precision detection. The 1RL220BE[20][31] versions were reportedly used for jamming.[32] "

S-400 missile system - Wikipedia
Detecting is one thing, tracking and targeting is another, and you sure don't know the effective range of either versus weapons that can be employed against them.
May be Turks have some info? And may be it is why they preffer to buy S-400.


And British F-35B can use only unguided bombs and external pod gun against ground targets.
Wow, you're the first person I've seen who believes a Paveway 4, which can be both GPS and laser guided, is unguided.

You know JDAMs and SDBs are guided too right?
Forget about GPS if you are going to bomb a battalion of S-400 in the full configuration. And yes, in this scenario you don't have laser designators near the green men positions.
 

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Old systems had a 1500 mile range............s4000 defense systems have caused a shift to LSRO cruise missiles launched from our bombers...........I didn't see the range but the new missiles are stealth..........

So the s4000 aren't going to shoot it down..........
Cruise Missile Controversy - Air Force Magazine
 

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Coup-proofing? Making Sense of Turkey’s S-400 Decision | Missile Threat

Next Steps
Now that Turkey has acquired the S-400, the question is what the United States will do in response. The United States appears to be prudently terminating Turkey’s involvement in the F-35 program. Like his predecessor Patrick Shanahan, acting Secretary of Defense Mark Esper has confirmed that the United States will suspend F-35 sales should Turkey acquire the S-400. Turkish pilots that had been training on the F-35 are being sent home, and a new foreign partner is being sought to substitute for Turkish involvement and investment.

Sanctions on Turkey for purchasing Russian military equipment are also likely. Following the Russian invasion of Ukraine, Congress in 2017 passed the Countering America’s Adversaries Through Sanctions Act (CAATSA), which imposes sanctions on any country purchasing significant military equipment from Russia. Turkey’s S-400 purchase puts the Trump administration in the awkward position of either enforcing sanctions on a NATO ally or pretending that Turkey’s S-400 acquisition is somehow a vital national security interest of the United States such that sanctions could be waived. Whether or not CAATSA sanctions are implemented, or for how long, allowing Turkey to have the F-35 is incompatible with Turkey’s operation of the S-400, and that sale must be terminated if Turkey operates the S-400.

But if Erdogan’s S-400 decision is driven by fundamental desire to preserve his rule—as a matter, as he says, of “national sovereignty”—then both the loss of the F-35 and CAATSA sanctions may be a price he is willing to pay.

If Turkey’s S-400 is indeed intended to provide military and political insurance for Erdogan against another coup attempt, it would go a long way to explaining why he is willing to endure considerable U.S. and NATO pressure to acquire it. This more specific purpose might explain why Turkish defense minister Hulusi Akar still maintains that Turkey remains open to acquiring the Patriot—as defense against other external threats. In the long term, Turkey may reverse the current move towards Russia, perhaps in a post-Erdogan period. If so, the prospects of both F-35 and Patriot air defenses could be reopened along with a future integration with NATO air defenses. For now, however, Turkey’s decision to acquire the S-400 represents a significant win for Russia.
 

Daryl Hunt

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Coup-proofing? Making Sense of Turkey’s S-400 Decision | Missile Threat

Next Steps
Now that Turkey has acquired the S-400, the question is what the United States will do in response. The United States appears to be prudently terminating Turkey’s involvement in the F-35 program. Like his predecessor Patrick Shanahan, acting Secretary of Defense Mark Esper has confirmed that the United States will suspend F-35 sales should Turkey acquire the S-400. Turkish pilots that had been training on the F-35 are being sent home, and a new foreign partner is being sought to substitute for Turkish involvement and investment.

Sanctions on Turkey for purchasing Russian military equipment are also likely. Following the Russian invasion of Ukraine, Congress in 2017 passed the Countering America’s Adversaries Through Sanctions Act (CAATSA), which imposes sanctions on any country purchasing significant military equipment from Russia. Turkey’s S-400 purchase puts the Trump administration in the awkward position of either enforcing sanctions on a NATO ally or pretending that Turkey’s S-400 acquisition is somehow a vital national security interest of the United States such that sanctions could be waived. Whether or not CAATSA sanctions are implemented, or for how long, allowing Turkey to have the F-35 is incompatible with Turkey’s operation of the S-400, and that sale must be terminated if Turkey operates the S-400.

But if Erdogan’s S-400 decision is driven by fundamental desire to preserve his rule—as a matter, as he says, of “national sovereignty”—then both the loss of the F-35 and CAATSA sanctions may be a price he is willing to pay.

If Turkey’s S-400 is indeed intended to provide military and political insurance for Erdogan against another coup attempt, it would go a long way to explaining why he is willing to endure considerable U.S. and NATO pressure to acquire it. This more specific purpose might explain why Turkish defense minister Hulusi Akar still maintains that Turkey remains open to acquiring the Patriot—as defense against other external threats. In the long term, Turkey may reverse the current move towards Russia, perhaps in a post-Erdogan period. If so, the prospects of both F-35 and Patriot air defenses could be reopened along with a future integration with NATO air defenses. For now, however, Turkey’s decision to acquire the S-400 represents a significant win for Russia.
When I view the capability between the Patriot and the S-400 I see some stark differences. In some areas the Patriot is better but it has a very narrow utiization as compared to the S-400. The S-400 isn't as good, say, against incoming Bombers and Fighters but it has a broader range of things it's designed to be used against. Call the S-400 the Swiss Army Knife of the two. To a rich country that can afford the specialized weapons, the Patriot would be the best buy but to the poorer country that has to watch it's funds, the S-400 may be the better buy.

It's like having to pick between a fighter that costs 50M versus the F-35A at 80M. Or do you go with the T-6 or the T-29 if that's all you can afford. Do you need the expensive fighters and can you even afford the most expensive. Will the slight cheaper or the extremely cheaper do the job you see in your near future.

But I'll say it again, Turkey gets the S-400 they don't get the F-35 because then they get to have them both side by side and can quickly learn how to defeat either one. It's not to the US best interest for the Turks to learn this and if the Turks learn it, you can damn well bank on the Russians will get that information 10 minutes after the Turks learn it.
 

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Coup-proofing? Making Sense of Turkey’s S-400 Decision | Missile Threat

Next Steps
Now that Turkey has acquired the S-400, the question is what the United States will do in response. The United States appears to be prudently terminating Turkey’s involvement in the F-35 program. Like his predecessor Patrick Shanahan, acting Secretary of Defense Mark Esper has confirmed that the United States will suspend F-35 sales should Turkey acquire the S-400. Turkish pilots that had been training on the F-35 are being sent home, and a new foreign partner is being sought to substitute for Turkish involvement and investment.

Sanctions on Turkey for purchasing Russian military equipment are also likely. Following the Russian invasion of Ukraine, Congress in 2017 passed the Countering America’s Adversaries Through Sanctions Act (CAATSA), which imposes sanctions on any country purchasing significant military equipment from Russia. Turkey’s S-400 purchase puts the Trump administration in the awkward position of either enforcing sanctions on a NATO ally or pretending that Turkey’s S-400 acquisition is somehow a vital national security interest of the United States such that sanctions could be waived. Whether or not CAATSA sanctions are implemented, or for how long, allowing Turkey to have the F-35 is incompatible with Turkey’s operation of the S-400, and that sale must be terminated if Turkey operates the S-400.

But if Erdogan’s S-400 decision is driven by fundamental desire to preserve his rule—as a matter, as he says, of “national sovereignty”—then both the loss of the F-35 and CAATSA sanctions may be a price he is willing to pay.

If Turkey’s S-400 is indeed intended to provide military and political insurance for Erdogan against another coup attempt, it would go a long way to explaining why he is willing to endure considerable U.S. and NATO pressure to acquire it. This more specific purpose might explain why Turkish defense minister Hulusi Akar still maintains that Turkey remains open to acquiring the Patriot—as defense against other external threats. In the long term, Turkey may reverse the current move towards Russia, perhaps in a post-Erdogan period. If so, the prospects of both F-35 and Patriot air defenses could be reopened along with a future integration with NATO air defenses. For now, however, Turkey’s decision to acquire the S-400 represents a significant win for Russia.
When I view the capability between the Patriot and the S-400 I see some stark differences. In some areas the Patriot is better but it has a very narrow utiization as compared to the S-400. The S-400 isn't as good, say, against incoming Bombers and Fighters but it has a broader range of things it's designed to be used against. Call the S-400 the Swiss Army Knife of the two. To a rich country that can afford the specialized weapons, the Patriot would be the best buy but to the poorer country that has to watch it's funds, the S-400 may be the better buy.

It's like having to pick between a fighter that costs 50M versus the F-35A at 80M. Or do you go with the T-6 or the T-29 if that's all you can afford. Do you need the expensive fighters and can you even afford the most expensive. Will the slight cheaper or the extremely cheaper do the job you see in your near future.

But I'll say it again, Turkey gets the S-400 they don't get the F-35 because then they get to have them both side by side and can quickly learn how to defeat either one. It's not to the US best interest for the Turks to learn this and if the Turks learn it, you can damn well bank on the Russians will get that information 10 minutes after the Turks learn it.
That's why the sale of F-35s to Turkey were stopped ......and their trainee pilots sent home..........

We are going to have to pull out of Turkey eventually............and kick them out of NATO...........It's been coming.
 

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Coup-proofing? Making Sense of Turkey’s S-400 Decision | Missile Threat

Next Steps
Now that Turkey has acquired the S-400, the question is what the United States will do in response. The United States appears to be prudently terminating Turkey’s involvement in the F-35 program. Like his predecessor Patrick Shanahan, acting Secretary of Defense Mark Esper has confirmed that the United States will suspend F-35 sales should Turkey acquire the S-400. Turkish pilots that had been training on the F-35 are being sent home, and a new foreign partner is being sought to substitute for Turkish involvement and investment.

Sanctions on Turkey for purchasing Russian military equipment are also likely. Following the Russian invasion of Ukraine, Congress in 2017 passed the Countering America’s Adversaries Through Sanctions Act (CAATSA), which imposes sanctions on any country purchasing significant military equipment from Russia. Turkey’s S-400 purchase puts the Trump administration in the awkward position of either enforcing sanctions on a NATO ally or pretending that Turkey’s S-400 acquisition is somehow a vital national security interest of the United States such that sanctions could be waived. Whether or not CAATSA sanctions are implemented, or for how long, allowing Turkey to have the F-35 is incompatible with Turkey’s operation of the S-400, and that sale must be terminated if Turkey operates the S-400.

But if Erdogan’s S-400 decision is driven by fundamental desire to preserve his rule—as a matter, as he says, of “national sovereignty”—then both the loss of the F-35 and CAATSA sanctions may be a price he is willing to pay.

If Turkey’s S-400 is indeed intended to provide military and political insurance for Erdogan against another coup attempt, it would go a long way to explaining why he is willing to endure considerable U.S. and NATO pressure to acquire it. This more specific purpose might explain why Turkish defense minister Hulusi Akar still maintains that Turkey remains open to acquiring the Patriot—as defense against other external threats. In the long term, Turkey may reverse the current move towards Russia, perhaps in a post-Erdogan period. If so, the prospects of both F-35 and Patriot air defenses could be reopened along with a future integration with NATO air defenses. For now, however, Turkey’s decision to acquire the S-400 represents a significant win for Russia.
When I view the capability between the Patriot and the S-400 I see some stark differences. In some areas the Patriot is better but it has a very narrow utiization as compared to the S-400. The S-400 isn't as good, say, against incoming Bombers and Fighters
Really? Why? From what distance a Patriot PAC-3 can detect, say, a B-2A "Spirit"?

But I'll say it again, Turkey gets the S-400 they don't get the F-35 because then they get to have them both side by side and can quickly learn how to defeat either one. It's not to the US best interest for the Turks to learn this and if the Turks learn it, you can damn well bank on the Russians will get that information 10 minutes after the Turks learn it.
But if the Turks will learn how to defeat the S-400, the American will get that information even before the Turks will learn it.
 
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eagle1462010

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Congress Endorses Hypersonic Weapons as Development Ramps Up - Air Force Magazine

As the enemy catches up to our tech..........we advance to the next..........s4000 will not matter much in a decade.
Yes. S-500 will.
S-500 missile system - Wikipedia
Neither we or the Russians sell our best stuff.............We sell what we consider Obsolete but still good weapons........not the good stuff.

The S-500 will not be sold until it's obsolete.........Wash, Rinse, Spin, dry and repeat.
 

Daryl Hunt

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Coup-proofing? Making Sense of Turkey’s S-400 Decision | Missile Threat

Next Steps
Now that Turkey has acquired the S-400, the question is what the United States will do in response. The United States appears to be prudently terminating Turkey’s involvement in the F-35 program. Like his predecessor Patrick Shanahan, acting Secretary of Defense Mark Esper has confirmed that the United States will suspend F-35 sales should Turkey acquire the S-400. Turkish pilots that had been training on the F-35 are being sent home, and a new foreign partner is being sought to substitute for Turkish involvement and investment.

Sanctions on Turkey for purchasing Russian military equipment are also likely. Following the Russian invasion of Ukraine, Congress in 2017 passed the Countering America’s Adversaries Through Sanctions Act (CAATSA), which imposes sanctions on any country purchasing significant military equipment from Russia. Turkey’s S-400 purchase puts the Trump administration in the awkward position of either enforcing sanctions on a NATO ally or pretending that Turkey’s S-400 acquisition is somehow a vital national security interest of the United States such that sanctions could be waived. Whether or not CAATSA sanctions are implemented, or for how long, allowing Turkey to have the F-35 is incompatible with Turkey’s operation of the S-400, and that sale must be terminated if Turkey operates the S-400.

But if Erdogan’s S-400 decision is driven by fundamental desire to preserve his rule—as a matter, as he says, of “national sovereignty”—then both the loss of the F-35 and CAATSA sanctions may be a price he is willing to pay.

If Turkey’s S-400 is indeed intended to provide military and political insurance for Erdogan against another coup attempt, it would go a long way to explaining why he is willing to endure considerable U.S. and NATO pressure to acquire it. This more specific purpose might explain why Turkish defense minister Hulusi Akar still maintains that Turkey remains open to acquiring the Patriot—as defense against other external threats. In the long term, Turkey may reverse the current move towards Russia, perhaps in a post-Erdogan period. If so, the prospects of both F-35 and Patriot air defenses could be reopened along with a future integration with NATO air defenses. For now, however, Turkey’s decision to acquire the S-400 represents a significant win for Russia.
When I view the capability between the Patriot and the S-400 I see some stark differences. In some areas the Patriot is better but it has a very narrow utiization as compared to the S-400. The S-400 isn't as good, say, against incoming Bombers and Fighters
Really? Why? From what distance a Patriot PAC-3 can detect, say, a B-2A "Spirit"?

But I'll say it again, Turkey gets the S-400 they don't get the F-35 because then they get to have them both side by side and can quickly learn how to defeat either one. It's not to the US best interest for the Turks to learn this and if the Turks learn it, you can damn well bank on the Russians will get that information 10 minutes after the Turks learn it.
But if the Turks will learn how to defeat the S-400, the American will get that information even before the Turks will learn it.
I would wager the US already know how to defeat the S-400. All the S-400 is is an updated S-300 and the Israelis have been having a field day against the S-300. The trick for the S-400 is to detect, lockon, get a firing solution, track with the weapon all the way to the hit. At any point, if the solution is broken, you start all over from scratch. Downing an F-35A with all it's bells and whistles in time before it launches one of it's standoffs is going to be tricky at best. A fully function US F-35A has never faced a fully function S-400 system. The only way for that to happen is for the US and Russia to go head to head. And I doubt if either side wants that question answered that bad.
 

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Coup-proofing? Making Sense of Turkey’s S-400 Decision | Missile Threat

Next Steps
Now that Turkey has acquired the S-400, the question is what the United States will do in response. The United States appears to be prudently terminating Turkey’s involvement in the F-35 program. Like his predecessor Patrick Shanahan, acting Secretary of Defense Mark Esper has confirmed that the United States will suspend F-35 sales should Turkey acquire the S-400. Turkish pilots that had been training on the F-35 are being sent home, and a new foreign partner is being sought to substitute for Turkish involvement and investment.

Sanctions on Turkey for purchasing Russian military equipment are also likely. Following the Russian invasion of Ukraine, Congress in 2017 passed the Countering America’s Adversaries Through Sanctions Act (CAATSA), which imposes sanctions on any country purchasing significant military equipment from Russia. Turkey’s S-400 purchase puts the Trump administration in the awkward position of either enforcing sanctions on a NATO ally or pretending that Turkey’s S-400 acquisition is somehow a vital national security interest of the United States such that sanctions could be waived. Whether or not CAATSA sanctions are implemented, or for how long, allowing Turkey to have the F-35 is incompatible with Turkey’s operation of the S-400, and that sale must be terminated if Turkey operates the S-400.

But if Erdogan’s S-400 decision is driven by fundamental desire to preserve his rule—as a matter, as he says, of “national sovereignty”—then both the loss of the F-35 and CAATSA sanctions may be a price he is willing to pay.

If Turkey’s S-400 is indeed intended to provide military and political insurance for Erdogan against another coup attempt, it would go a long way to explaining why he is willing to endure considerable U.S. and NATO pressure to acquire it. This more specific purpose might explain why Turkish defense minister Hulusi Akar still maintains that Turkey remains open to acquiring the Patriot—as defense against other external threats. In the long term, Turkey may reverse the current move towards Russia, perhaps in a post-Erdogan period. If so, the prospects of both F-35 and Patriot air defenses could be reopened along with a future integration with NATO air defenses. For now, however, Turkey’s decision to acquire the S-400 represents a significant win for Russia.
When I view the capability between the Patriot and the S-400 I see some stark differences. In some areas the Patriot is better but it has a very narrow utiization as compared to the S-400. The S-400 isn't as good, say, against incoming Bombers and Fighters
Really? Why? From what distance a Patriot PAC-3 can detect, say, a B-2A "Spirit"?

But I'll say it again, Turkey gets the S-400 they don't get the F-35 because then they get to have them both side by side and can quickly learn how to defeat either one. It's not to the US best interest for the Turks to learn this and if the Turks learn it, you can damn well bank on the Russians will get that information 10 minutes after the Turks learn it.
But if the Turks will learn how to defeat the S-400, the American will get that information even before the Turks will learn it.
I would wager the US already know how to defeat the S-400. All the S-400 is is an updated S-300 and the Israelis have been having a field day against the S-300. The trick for the S-400 is to detect, lockon, get a firing solution, track with the weapon all the way to the hit. At any point, if the solution is broken, you start all over from scratch. Downing an F-35A with all it's bells and whistles in time before it launches one of it's standoffs is going to be tricky at best. A fully function US F-35A has never faced a fully function S-400 system. The only way for that to happen is for the US and Russia to go head to head. And I doubt if either side wants that question answered that bad.
Ok. Let's imagine, that we need to create a diversion, and then strike China, when Russia is distracted. We have (for example) two suicidal countries - the UK and Poland, they have to crush and conquere Kaliningrad region and then to die heroically under the full scale Russian attack, buying us some time to defeat China.
How many F-35 they need to do it?
 

Daryl Hunt

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Coup-proofing? Making Sense of Turkey’s S-400 Decision | Missile Threat

Next Steps
Now that Turkey has acquired the S-400, the question is what the United States will do in response. The United States appears to be prudently terminating Turkey’s involvement in the F-35 program. Like his predecessor Patrick Shanahan, acting Secretary of Defense Mark Esper has confirmed that the United States will suspend F-35 sales should Turkey acquire the S-400. Turkish pilots that had been training on the F-35 are being sent home, and a new foreign partner is being sought to substitute for Turkish involvement and investment.

Sanctions on Turkey for purchasing Russian military equipment are also likely. Following the Russian invasion of Ukraine, Congress in 2017 passed the Countering America’s Adversaries Through Sanctions Act (CAATSA), which imposes sanctions on any country purchasing significant military equipment from Russia. Turkey’s S-400 purchase puts the Trump administration in the awkward position of either enforcing sanctions on a NATO ally or pretending that Turkey’s S-400 acquisition is somehow a vital national security interest of the United States such that sanctions could be waived. Whether or not CAATSA sanctions are implemented, or for how long, allowing Turkey to have the F-35 is incompatible with Turkey’s operation of the S-400, and that sale must be terminated if Turkey operates the S-400.

But if Erdogan’s S-400 decision is driven by fundamental desire to preserve his rule—as a matter, as he says, of “national sovereignty”—then both the loss of the F-35 and CAATSA sanctions may be a price he is willing to pay.

If Turkey’s S-400 is indeed intended to provide military and political insurance for Erdogan against another coup attempt, it would go a long way to explaining why he is willing to endure considerable U.S. and NATO pressure to acquire it. This more specific purpose might explain why Turkish defense minister Hulusi Akar still maintains that Turkey remains open to acquiring the Patriot—as defense against other external threats. In the long term, Turkey may reverse the current move towards Russia, perhaps in a post-Erdogan period. If so, the prospects of both F-35 and Patriot air defenses could be reopened along with a future integration with NATO air defenses. For now, however, Turkey’s decision to acquire the S-400 represents a significant win for Russia.
When I view the capability between the Patriot and the S-400 I see some stark differences. In some areas the Patriot is better but it has a very narrow utiization as compared to the S-400. The S-400 isn't as good, say, against incoming Bombers and Fighters
Really? Why? From what distance a Patriot PAC-3 can detect, say, a B-2A "Spirit"?

But I'll say it again, Turkey gets the S-400 they don't get the F-35 because then they get to have them both side by side and can quickly learn how to defeat either one. It's not to the US best interest for the Turks to learn this and if the Turks learn it, you can damn well bank on the Russians will get that information 10 minutes after the Turks learn it.
But if the Turks will learn how to defeat the S-400, the American will get that information even before the Turks will learn it.
I would wager the US already know how to defeat the S-400. All the S-400 is is an updated S-300 and the Israelis have been having a field day against the S-300. The trick for the S-400 is to detect, lockon, get a firing solution, track with the weapon all the way to the hit. At any point, if the solution is broken, you start all over from scratch. Downing an F-35A with all it's bells and whistles in time before it launches one of it's standoffs is going to be tricky at best. A fully function US F-35A has never faced a fully function S-400 system. The only way for that to happen is for the US and Russia to go head to head. And I doubt if either side wants that question answered that bad.
Ok. Let's imagine, that we need to create a diversion, and then strike China, when Russia is distracted. We have (for example) two suicidal countries - the UK and Poland, they have to crush and conquere Kaliningrad region and then to die heroically under the full scale Russian attack, buying us some time to defeat China.
How many F-35 they need to do it?
Zero. Both Britain and Poland aren't that stupid to spend their wads meant to stop the Russians non some out of the way berg.
 

Daryl Hunt

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Congress Endorses Hypersonic Weapons as Development Ramps Up - Air Force Magazine

As the enemy catches up to our tech..........we advance to the next..........s4000 will not matter much in a decade.
Yes. S-500 will.
S-500 missile system - Wikipedia
Neither we or the Russians sell our best stuff.............We sell what we consider Obsolete but still good weapons........not the good stuff.

The S-500 will not be sold until it's obsolete.........Wash, Rinse, Spin, dry and repeat.
The S-500, by itself, isn't useable. It's not able to shoot down bombers, fighter, ASMs or any kind. It's strictly designed to be used against Ballistic Missiles. It's worthless for even cruise missiles. The S-400 still carries the bulk of the load. Right now, the S-400 needs the S-300 system to handle the Ballistic Missiles. This is why they have to wait until the S-500 is in the field to get rid of the S-300. As good as the S-400 is, it does have holes in what it can be used as.
 

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