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As has already been pointed out the Egyptians didn't build monuments to commemorate defeats. So you shouldn't be expecting that as evidence, right?Anything.What evidence are you expecting?That isnt evidence.
The people that are mentioned live after Moses. By a thousand years...
Probably retelling Jewish tales.
The books that were mentioned, are Jewish books.
I didnt make it past the first paragraph.
This thread is fake news.
If I had to guess, I'd say he was a leader whose stories became embellished over time.I have heard there is evidence of Hebrews, who had settled on the northern boundaries of Egypt, being hauled into the forced temple building and there has been ancient Hebrew graffitti found on the walls of a tomb somewhere. The parting of the Red Sea was probably low tide during a time of low river levels--they walked across the mud flats.That isnt evidence.
The people that are mentioned live after Moses. By a thousand years...
There's absolutely no contemporaneous evidence of Moses or the Hebrews in Egypt ... this is mythology ...
Legend begins with the divided Kingdoms of Judea and Israel ... of David's Judea, we have abundant archeological evidence ... however, nothing of Israel ... it's existence appears to be an exaggeration ... we can speculate the Hebrews wish to claim the lands for themselves and created a fake kingdom to justify a hostile take-over ... but if we're speculating, might as well bring Martians in, eh? ...
History begins with the Roman conquest of The Levant ...
I love this stuff. Okay MAYBE he wasn't found in a basket in the bullrushes and taken home to be adopted by the royal family, and maybe God didn't send the plagues, but the jews didn't make up being in bondage in Egypt, for heaven's sake, or taking advantage of a moment of chaos in Egypt caused by disasters to get the hell out. For this small wandering group to not know where to go for awhile, that makes sense, too. Sure some of it is legend, but there are kernels of historical fact in there, too. I'd bank on it.
How do you believe that knowledge - such as historical events - were passed down 3,000 years ago and beyond? If I told you that the account of the Tower of Babel was an allegorical account of the great migration from Mesopotamia would you discount that because that account was not contemporaneous to the great migration? Based on other evidence, the modern world believes the migration from Mesopotamia did occur. So we have a written record that was not contemporaneous to the event, that stood on oral tradition which was passed down for thousands of years before it was recorded and it turned out to be correct. So we should not be quick to dismiss written accounts that were passed down through an oral tradition. The reality is the only evidence we have for these events comes from oral traditions.
Thats not calling them Jewish, you retard.LIAR . You said "Jewish tales." Show us the Egyptian records from 3000 BC.I didnt say the people mentioned were jews. You obviously cant read.Why do you have to lie? Those writers were not Jews, but Greeks. Knowledge does not expire with time. If it did, we would know nothing about history at all. You accept what historians tell you about the ancient Egyptians even though they predated Moses. If knowledge fades with time, we would know nothing about the Roman Empire which existed 2500 years ago or the ancient Chinese, who existed 4000 years ago. You are not very smart.That isnt evidence.
The people that are mentioned live after Moses. By a thousand years...
Probably retelling Jewish tales.
The books that were mentioned, are Jewish books.
I didnt make it past the first paragraph.
This thread is fake news.
And the Egyptians started record keeping in 3000bc or so..
And you say im not very smart?
As has already been pointed out the Egyptians didn't build monuments to commemorate defeats. So you shouldn't be expecting that as evidence, right?
If you can't name one thing you would expect to find, then there may be nothing you would expect to find. Which is why we shouldn't dismiss oral tradition on the grounds that there is no contemporaneous evidence. There is none because none would be expected.
I guess we should believe in dragons and vampires, too.As has already been pointed out the Egyptians didn't build monuments to commemorate defeats. So you shouldn't be expecting that as evidence, right?Anything.What evidence are you expecting?That isnt evidence.
The people that are mentioned live after Moses. By a thousand years...
Probably retelling Jewish tales.
The books that were mentioned, are Jewish books.
I didnt make it past the first paragraph.
This thread is fake news.
If you can't name one thing you would expect to find, then there may be nothing you would expect to find. Which is why we shouldn't dismiss oral tradition on the grounds that there is no contemporaneous evidence. There is none because none would be expected.
The Tower isn't the point of the account. I doubt there was ever one that would match our expectations. They made these accounts memorable so that they could be remembered. That's how they passed down knowledge. Embedded in the tale is the knowledge that was being passed down. The Tower isn't important, what is important is the knowledge that they once shared a heritage or culture or society or whatever you want to call it and that it was dispersed to other lands. The same thing applies to Homer and the Iliad. It's the whole can't see the forest for the trees thingee.How do you believe that knowledge - such as historical events - were passed down 3,000 years ago and beyond? If I told you that the account of the Tower of Babel was an allegorical account of the great migration from Mesopotamia would you discount that because that account was not contemporaneous to the great migration? Based on other evidence, the modern world believes the migration from Mesopotamia did occur. So we have a written record that was not contemporaneous to the event, that stood on oral tradition which was passed down for thousands of years before it was recorded and it turned out to be correct. So we should not be quick to dismiss written accounts that were passed down through an oral tradition. The reality is the only evidence we have for these events comes from oral traditions.
The Trojan War was long considered mythology ... Homer's Iliad a fanciful tale ... then archeologists discovered Troy ... and we moved The Iliad from "mythology" to "legend" ... Troy existed, and most certainly fought the Greeks ... but all that miss-mash about gods and goddesses playing patty-cake with everyone in sight is exaggeration ... we lack the variety of written records from the region to piece together any manner of "historical" narrative ...
Point being ... these terms aren't set in stone ... as new evidence emerges, we refine our understandings ...
There's no geologic evidence of Noah's Flood, nor is there archeological evidence the human population was reduced to ten or twenty individuals in the centuries before Abraham ... Genesis 10 goes into all the begating details of how Noah and his sons EAGERLY and with ALL DUE HASTE re-populated the Earth ... obviously they all spoke the same language ... they were the ONLY people on Earth ...
Genesis 11:1 - 9: (not long but spoiled for spaminess)1 And the whole earth was of one language, and of one speech.
2 And it came to pass, as they journeyed from the east, that they found a plain in the land of Shinar; and they dwelt there.
3 And they said one to another, Go to, let us make brick, and burn them thoroughly. And they had brick for stone, and slime had they for morter.
4 And they said, Go to, let us build us a city and a tower, whose top may reach unto heaven; and let us make us a name, lest we be scattered abroad upon the face of the whole earth.
5 And the Lord came down to see the city and the tower, which the children of men builded.
6 And the Lord said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do.
7 Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech.
8 So the Lord scattered them abroad from thence upon the face of all the earth: and they left off to build the city.
9 Therefore is the name of it called Babel; because the Lord did there confound the language of all the earth: and from thence did the Lord scatter them abroad upon the face of all the earth.
If the Tower of Babel existed, then there will be physical evidence ... and until we find that evidence, we can only say this is mythology ... a tall tale to explain the diversity in human language ... why would the existence of multiple migrations across time and space lead one to believe we all spoke the same language until the founding of Babylon? ...
The lesson here is don't build towers to reach into Heaven ... don't build governments or institutions and say they are perfect ... nothing of Man is perfect, all his creations get scattered like the tongues God bestowed on them, each to their own ... and unto dust they all become ...
I guess we should believe in dragons and vampires, too.
We don't need evidence to throw a BIG PARTY for Passover. The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over again expecting a different result. Those that are doing well should keep doing what they are doing. Those that aren't doing well should try doing something else.As has already been pointed out the Egyptians didn't build monuments to commemorate defeats. So you shouldn't be expecting that as evidence, right?
If you can't name one thing you would expect to find, then there may be nothing you would expect to find. Which is why we shouldn't dismiss oral tradition on the grounds that there is no contemporaneous evidence. There is none because none would be expected.
The Bible spoeaks of many nations that the Hebrews passed through heading to Jericho ... some nations allowed the Hebrews to pass in peace, others has to be destroy and still others joined ... plenty of witnesses to such an event ... something Pharoh's neighbors might be inclined to celebrate ...
We understand "a lack of evidence isn't evidence of lack" ... we're not saying it couldn't happened ... just there's no archeological evidence it happened the way it's described in the Bible ... yet ... the Earth is young still ... we learn everyday ...
Why do we need evidence to throw a BIG PARTY for Passover? ...
You don't seem to be able to see past the trees. If you perceive these accounts as fairy tales instead of allegorical accounts of actual historical events then everything you see will skew to that result and you will miss the forest.I guess we should believe in dragons and vampires, too.As has already been pointed out the Egyptians didn't build monuments to commemorate defeats. So you shouldn't be expecting that as evidence, right?Anything.What evidence are you expecting?That isnt evidence.
The people that are mentioned live after Moses. By a thousand years...
Probably retelling Jewish tales.
The books that were mentioned, are Jewish books.
I didnt make it past the first paragraph.
This thread is fake news.
If you can't name one thing you would expect to find, then there may be nothing you would expect to find. Which is why we shouldn't dismiss oral tradition on the grounds that there is no contemporaneous evidence. There is none because none would be expected.
Ahhh the modern day AntifaAkhenaten was the Biblical Moses.
And he didn't literally shave down a golden calf, throw it on a fire, mix in some water and make what is it. It was alchemy, stoopid.
That is all.
The Tower isn't the point of the account. I doubt there was ever one that would match our expectations. They made these accounts memorable so that they could be remembered. That's how they passed down knowledge. Embedded in the tale is the knowledge that was being passed down. The Tower isn't important, what is important is the knowledge that they once shared a heritage or culture or society or whatever you want to call it and that it was dispersed to other lands. The same thing applies to Homer and the Iliad. It's the whole can't see the forest for the trees thingee.
And sure, the message of don't forget God is in there too. It's in almost all messages. Probably because that's the thing we keep doing; forgetting. In fact, the history of the Jews in its entirety is an account of remember and forgetting God. When the Babylonians defeated God, they didn't think their God was greater. They knew better. They knew there was only one God. They asked themselves, what was it that God wanted us to learn from this. Same story, different verse all the way down.
In a round about way your discussion on Troy and the Illiad (which were proven to be historical) proves my point that we shouldn't discount accounts of oral tradition. Interspersed in those accounts are knowledge they deemed worthy of passing down. It's how they transferred knowledge and wisdom from one generation to the next.
Fuckin A ! When the Passover occurs it's time to plant strawberries !As has already been pointed out the Egyptians didn't build monuments to commemorate defeats. So you shouldn't be expecting that as evidence, right?
If you can't name one thing you would expect to find, then there may be nothing you would expect to find. Which is why we shouldn't dismiss oral tradition on the grounds that there is no contemporaneous evidence. There is none because none would be expected.
The Bible spoeaks of many nations that the Hebrews passed through heading to Jericho ... some nations allowed the Hebrews to pass in peace, others has to be destroy and still others joined ... plenty of witnesses to such an event ... something Pharoh's neighbors might be inclined to celebrate ...
We understand "a lack of evidence isn't evidence of lack" ... we're not saying it couldn't happened ... just there's no archeological evidence it happened the way it's described in the Bible ... yet ... the Earth is young still ... we learn everyday ...
Why do we need evidence to throw a BIG PARTY for Passover? ...
Fuckin A ! When the Passover occurs it's time to plant strawberries !
We don't need evidence to throw a BIG PARTY for Passover. The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over again expecting a different result. Those that are doing well should keep doing what they are doing. Those that aren't doing well should try doing something else.
I don't find the absence of monuments by the Pharoh's neighbors to be compelling. I do find the argument of these guys to be compelling.
The Exodus Is Not Fiction
There is archaeological evidence and especially textual evidence for the Exodus, if it was a smaller group who left Egypt.reformjudaism.org
Not sure how you can say there was no Moses. I'm not certain of that.The Tower isn't the point of the account. I doubt there was ever one that would match our expectations. They made these accounts memorable so that they could be remembered. That's how they passed down knowledge. Embedded in the tale is the knowledge that was being passed down. The Tower isn't important, what is important is the knowledge that they once shared a heritage or culture or society or whatever you want to call it and that it was dispersed to other lands. The same thing applies to Homer and the Iliad. It's the whole can't see the forest for the trees thingee.
And sure, the message of don't forget God is in there too. It's in almost all messages. Probably because that's the thing we keep doing; forgetting. In fact, the history of the Jews in its entirety is an account of remember and forgetting God. When the Babylonians defeated God, they didn't think their God was greater. They knew better. They knew there was only one God. They asked themselves, what was it that God wanted us to learn from this. Same story, different verse all the way down.
In a round about way your discussion on Troy and the Illiad (which were proven to be historical) proves my point that we shouldn't discount accounts of oral tradition. Interspersed in those accounts are knowledge they deemed worthy of passing down. It's how they transferred knowledge and wisdom from one generation to the next.
Nothing wrong with mythology, or the oral tradition ... fathers telling sons tall tales with important moral lessons ... on the other end is written history ... some bloke keeping a diary ... scribes and clerics ... someone whose job is to record the events of the day ...
So for the question "was Moses a historical figure?" ... the answer is no, there is no written record of his existence, nor it seems of any great Hebrew presence in Egypt ... apparently the archeological evidence doesn't give us any footing ... nothing to point to and say "see this, there is a grain of truth to the tale" ... like finding the entire City of Troy ... woot ... we can safely say the Trojan War is legendary ...
I'm glad I studied the Exodus, time well worth spending ... kinda forget the details but the lessons struck home for me ... the fragility of community in times of stress, the weakness of humans in flight, and we ourselves must be strong in our moral values ... the community deserves this from us, each and every one ... and don't be [deleted] like Moses was, forbidden The Promised Land for his cruelty ... when given a bit of power, wield it with mercy ... folks will be quick to thrust more power upon you ... I absolutely don't care if it's true or not, to be honest ...
Not sure how you can say there was no Moses. I'm not certain of that.
Seems they were making the argument that certain books did not include the tribe of Levi and that that was because they were in Egypt and that the tribe of Levi was the only tribe in Egypt and that their account got adopted by all tribes, but I could have read that wrong. Anyway, the numbers were smaller than listed and that as well as the sand rapidly hides its artifacts is why they aren't being found.We don't need evidence to throw a BIG PARTY for Passover. The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over again expecting a different result. Those that are doing well should keep doing what they are doing. Those that aren't doing well should try doing something else.
I don't find the absence of monuments by the Pharoh's neighbors to be compelling. I do find the argument of these guys to be compelling.
The Exodus Is Not Fiction
There is archaeological evidence and especially textual evidence for the Exodus, if it was a smaller group who left Egypt.
I skimmed through noting all the references were from within the Bible ... basically saying the Bible is consistent with itself ... not that there's a body of writing outside the Hebrew community verifying the events described ...
Another important lesson: if tasked with leading millions of people across the wilderness, get directions first ... the Sinai ain't that big to lost in for 40 years ... just saying ...
That's what I took from your conclusion that Moses wasn't a historical figure.Not sure how you can say there was no Moses. I'm not certain of that.
Where did I say that? ...
So for the question "was Moses a historical figure?" ... the answer is no, there is no written record of his existence, nor it seems of any great Hebrew presence in Egypt
