Even If Classified Documents Were Recovered In Trump Raid, It Looks Like Chances Of Conviction Are Quite Slim

[Care4all]

C is for cookie.
C is cleaned, like with a cloth.
C is for criminal, like what Hillary is.

After her lawyers copied and retained all govt documents and emails from her server to send to the National Archives, they deleted the personal emails, (30,000) and sent their server to their computer maintenance company and requested they clean it and continue to clean it, on a quicker schedule, ...this was 1 to 2 months before the Clinton team got the subpoena for Benghazi and Libya emails from Congress.

The Clinton lawyers, thought nothing of the subpoena because they had already turned over her records to the National Archives, including the Benghazi and Libya emails....

The Clinton server was not subpoenaed by Congress, her Benghazi and Libya emails were...

(It was 5 months later, the FBI subpoenaed her server, after the National Archive librarians going through sorting the records she turned over, found top secret classified stuff being talked about in staff emails they found, they put in a referral to the doj/fbi, which is required under the law, when classified TS is found.)

The computer maintenance guy, somehow got his memory giggled and realized early March I believe, that he never followed the Clinton team directions to clean and keep clean the server back on n December ...so he rushed to wipe it clean.

It was established by the FBI that the Clinton team gave him the order to clean the server before Clinton got the subpoena for Bengh/Libya, and did not tell him to clean it, after the subpoena.....the maintenance computer guy, did this, on his own.

 

[SeaMajor7]

After her lawyers copied and retained all govt documents and emails from her server to send to the National Archives, they deleted the personal emails, (30,000) and sent their server to their computer maintenance company and requested they clean it and continue to clean it, on a quicker schedule, ...this was 1 to 2 months before the Clinton team got the subpoena for Benghazi and Libya emails from Congress.

The Clinton lawyers, thought nothing of the subpoena because they had already turned over her records to the National Archives, including the Benghazi and Libya emails....

The Clinton server was not subpoenaed by Congress, her Benghazi and Libya emails were...

(It was 5 months later, the FBI subpoenaed her server, after the National Archive librarians going through sorting the records she turned over, found top secret classified stuff being talked about in staff emails they found, they put in a referral to the fbi, which is required under the law, when classified TS is found.)

The computer maintenance guy, somehow got his memory giggled and realized early March I believe, that he never followed the Clinton team directions to clean and keep clean the server back on n December ...so he rushed to wipe it clean.

It was established by the FBI that the Clinton team gave him the order to clean the server before Clinton got the subpoena for Bengh/Libya, and did not tell him to clean it, after the subpoena.....the maintenance computer guy, did this, on his own.

Cool story, bro.
Bleach Bit Hammer time! Wooot!!!!

 

[berg80]

After her lawyers copied and retained all govt documents and emails from her server to send to the National Archives, they deleted the personal emails, (30,000) and sent their server to their computer maintenance company and requested they clean it and continue to clean it, on a quicker schedule, ...this was 1 to 2 months before the Clinton team got the subpoena for Benghazi and Libya emails from Congress.

The Clinton lawyers, thought nothing of the subpoena because they had already turned over her records to the National Archives, including the Benghazi and Libya emails....

The Clinton server was not subpoenaed by Congress, her Benghazi and Libya emails were...

(It was 5 months later, the FBI subpoenaed her server, after the National Archive librarians going through sorting the records she turned over, found top secret classified stuff being talked about in staff emails they found, they put in a referral to the fbi, which is required under the law, when classified TS is found.)

The computer maintenance guy, somehow got his memory giggled and realized early March I believe, that he never followed the Clinton team directions to clean and keep clean the server back on n December ...so he rushed to wipe it clean.

It was established by the FBI that the Clinton team gave him the order to clean the server before Clinton got the subpoena for Bengh/Libya, and did not tell him to clean it, after the subpoena.....the maintenance computer guy, did this, on his own.

That was way too much factual material for the simple minds of MAGAnuts to absorb. Not to mention it being incongruous with all the lies about Hillary they believe.

 

[bripat9643]

Trumps going to jail … trump is running scared … he knows now he’s going to jail ..,and I’m loving it … his so call judge that suppose to help him has now said trumps is dealing with 1000 classified documents he took … trump knows g’s in deep shit

Any day now. Any day now, Any day now.

 

[bripat9643]

Does Classification Even Matter?

All that said, there is an even more fundamental reason why Trump’s claims of declassification are likely to fall short as a legal defense. While there are criminal statutes that hinge on classification, they aren’t among the criminal offenses that the FBI included on the search warrant. To the contrary, all three of the criminal provisions that the FBI did list can be—and two routinely are—applied to misconduct that has absolutely nothing to do with classified information, making it unclear whether Trump’s claims of declassification would make any difference even if true.

The first provision listed, 18 U.S.C. § 1519, is an obstruction of justice provision that makes it a crime to knowingly alter, conceal, destroy, or falsify “any record, document, or tangible object[,]” so long as it’s done with the intent to impede or influence a federal investigation or other process. It’s unclear whether the Justice Department included § 1519 on the search warrant because it believes records held at Mar-a-Lago have been concealed or manipulated in violation of § 1519, or because members of Trump’s team may have generated false records as part of the extended negotiations over the retrieval of those records (such as the inventory that one or more of Trump’s lawyers reportedly signed in June 2022 asserting, incorrectly, that all classified documents had been turned over). Either way, whether the records held at Mar-a-Lago are classified or not is irrelevant, as the Justice Department routinely brings successful § 1519 charges in relation to records that are entirely unclassified, such as police reports and records of maritime waste disposal.

Does It Matter What (If Anything) Trump Declassified?

No, not really.

www.lawfareblog.com

Wow, your delusion is terminal.

 

[Care4all]

Cool story, bro.
Bleach Bit Hammer time! Wooot!!!!

the FBI investigation established that when she, and her entire staff upgraded their phones to new phone devices, after they transferred all of their records to their new upgraded phones, they smashed and destroyed the old phones, so that no strangers or enemy operatives, could retrieve any govt information off of their old phones. The DOJ concluded they did not maliciously or nefariously smash their phones for criminal purpose.

They were ignorant, they were sloppy as heck, her staff even had loose lips in emails, but with no criminal intent...and unlike Military code for some of the same things, U.S. Code requires intent....

Thus, her staff and she, could not be prosecuted according to Comey, and convicted in a court room beyond a reasonable doubt for the gross negligence charge.

 

[bripat9643]

the FBI investigation established that when she, and her entire staff upgraded their phones to new phone devices, after they transferred all of their records to their new upgraded phones, they smashed and destroyed the old phones, so that no strangers or enemy operatives, could retrieve any govt information off of their old phones. The DOJ concluded they did not maliciously or nefariously smash their phones for criminal purpose.

They were ignorant, they were sloppy as heck, her staff even had loose lips in emails, but with no criminal intent...and unlike Military code for some of the same things, U.S. Code requires intent....

Thus, her staff and she, could not be prosecuted according to Comey, and convicted in a court room beyond a reasonable doubt for the gross negligence charge.

You actually believe we are supposed to trust the FBI?

 

[Leo123]

What's the fantasy Leo?

Trump taking top secret SCI MARKED documents to his home at Mara Lago resort, and NOT returning them?

Hillary not having MARKED top secret classified documents on her server?

Not proven. Hillary removed the marks.

 

[Care4all]

Not proven. Hillary removed the marks.

Hillary did not remove the Marks. There would be indication of such in their computer system that was scoured by FBI experts AND there would be a govt record that they signed out a copy of TOP SECRET SCI documents and who signed them out, and when,...and when it was returned.....the FBI found no proof of that....

 

[basquebromance]

everyone is an expert and all opinions are created equal

how does a neutral person analyze this melange of possible truths, half-truths, misinformation, disinformation and outright falsehoods.

for a reasonable person in the social media and USMB age, i don't know who to believe & what to believe!

 

[Leo123]

Hillary did not remove the Marks. There would be indication of such in their computer system that was scoured by FBI experts AND there would be a govt record that they signed out a copy of TOP SECRET SCI documents and who signed them out, and when,...and when it was returned.....the FBI found no proof of that....

She had a private server. She 'bleached' the records and smashed cell phones. All Illegal, Comey let her off. The FBI never had any intention of finding dirt on Hillary because she was calling the shots in the Trump/Russia investigation.

 

[Leo123]

everyone is an expert and all opinions are created equal

how does a neutral person analyze this melange of possible truths, half-truths, misinformation, disinformation and outright falsehoods.

for a reasonable person in the social media and USMB age, i don't know who to believe & what to believe!

Get the information on your own and don't rely on Google, Facebook, Twitter or Microsoft Edge, they're all alt-left these days and anti-Trump.

 

[Leo123]

the FBI investigation established that when she, and her entire staff upgraded their phones to new phone devices, after they transferred all of their records to their new upgraded phones, they smashed and destroyed the old phones, so that no strangers or enemy operatives, could retrieve any govt information off of their old phones. The DOJ concluded they did not maliciously or nefariously smash their phones for criminal purpose.

They were ignorant, they were sloppy as heck, her staff even had loose lips in emails, but with no criminal intent...and unlike Military code for some of the same things, U.S. Code requires intent....

Thus, her staff and she, could not be prosecuted according to Comey, and convicted in a court room beyond a reasonable doubt for the gross negligence charge.

So, Hillary was just 'ignorant' but Trump is a 'criminal?' You believe Comey who got fired for lying? Figures.

 

[BWK]

In the warrant (LINK), the laws allegedly broken are included....

"All physical documents and records constituting evidence, contraband, fruits of crime, or
other items illegally possessed in violation of 18 U.S.C. §§ 793, 2071 , or 1519

Here are links to the three statutes...

18 U.S. Code § 793 - Gathering, transmitting or losing defense information

www.law.cornell.edu

18 U.S. Code § 2071 - Concealment, removal, or mutilation generally

www.law.cornell.edu

18 U.S. Code § 1519 - Destruction, alteration, or falsification of records in Federal investigations and bankruptcy

www.law.cornell.edu

I am not a lawyer, but my read is that it will difficult to prove violation of these statutes, even if classified material was actually seized, for the reasoning I include below (my opinions, not cut and pasted or researched anywhere).

You Biden supporters and/or Trump haters can let me know why I am wrong.

18 U.S. Code § 793 - Gathering, transmitting or losing defense information​

Whoever, for the purpose of obtaining information respecting the national defense with intent or reason to believe that the information is to be used to the injury of the United States, or to the advantage of any foreign nation...

This statute requires that the person not only be in possession of the material, but that they person believes the material is to be used for injury to the US. No one, even Trump haters with a brain, would think that Trump was going to use the material to cause damage to the United States. What was Trump planning to do, sell nuclear secrets to Kim Jong Un in exchange for billions of dollars? Release the rcords to the NYT to damage the reputation of the US? Doesn't seem credible.

18 U.S. Code § 2071 - Concealment, removal, or mutilation generally​

Whoever willfully and unlawfully conceals, removes, mutilates, obliterates, or destroys, or attempts to do so, or, with intent to do so

This statute requires willful intent. So if Team Trump did not know there was classified material in the boxes, it would appear to be a successful defense against any relevant charge. Also, if there was no concealment or attempt to destroy, and Team Trump had told the FBI to come and get the material anytime it wanted to, like Trump has posted on Truth Social, then there would be no violation...
View attachment 681946

18 U.S. Code § 1519 - Destruction, alteration, or falsification of records in Federal investigations and bankruptcy​

Whoever knowingly alters, destroys, mutilates, conceals, covers up, falsifies, or makes a false entry in any record, document, or tangible object with the intent to impede, obstruct, or influence the investigation or proper administration of any matter

This statute also requires intent. It's relevance is probably that it has been reported that Trump's lawyer signed a statement saying there was no classified material at Mar-A-Lago in June....

Trump's lawyer told the DOJ that ALL classified docs were returned

One of the lawyers working for Former President Donald Trump signed a written statement in June confirming that all classified material had been returned to the government.

www.dailymail.co.uk

If that signed statement was believed to be true at the time, there is no violation of this statute.

Opinions?

If that were true, a second trip to Trump's home would have never happened.

 

[BWK]

In the warrant (LINK), the laws allegedly broken are included....

"All physical documents and records constituting evidence, contraband, fruits of crime, or
other items illegally possessed in violation of 18 U.S.C. §§ 793, 2071 , or 1519

Here are links to the three statutes...

18 U.S. Code § 793 - Gathering, transmitting or losing defense information

www.law.cornell.edu

18 U.S. Code § 2071 - Concealment, removal, or mutilation generally

www.law.cornell.edu

18 U.S. Code § 1519 - Destruction, alteration, or falsification of records in Federal investigations and bankruptcy

www.law.cornell.edu

I am not a lawyer, but my read is that it will difficult to prove violation of these statutes, even if classified material was actually seized, for the reasoning I include below (my opinions, not cut and pasted or researched anywhere).

You Biden supporters and/or Trump haters can let me know why I am wrong.

18 U.S. Code § 793 - Gathering, transmitting or losing defense information​

Whoever, for the purpose of obtaining information respecting the national defense with intent or reason to believe that the information is to be used to the injury of the United States, or to the advantage of any foreign nation...

This statute requires that the person not only be in possession of the material, but that they person believes the material is to be used for injury to the US. No one, even Trump haters with a brain, would think that Trump was going to use the material to cause damage to the United States. What was Trump planning to do, sell nuclear secrets to Kim Jong Un in exchange for billions of dollars? Release the rcords to the NYT to damage the reputation of the US? Doesn't seem credible.

18 U.S. Code § 2071 - Concealment, removal, or mutilation generally​

Whoever willfully and unlawfully conceals, removes, mutilates, obliterates, or destroys, or attempts to do so, or, with intent to do so

This statute requires willful intent. So if Team Trump did not know there was classified material in the boxes, it would appear to be a successful defense against any relevant charge. Also, if there was no concealment or attempt to destroy, and Team Trump had told the FBI to come and get the material anytime it wanted to, like Trump has posted on Truth Social, then there would be no violation...
View attachment 681946

18 U.S. Code § 1519 - Destruction, alteration, or falsification of records in Federal investigations and bankruptcy​

Whoever knowingly alters, destroys, mutilates, conceals, covers up, falsifies, or makes a false entry in any record, document, or tangible object with the intent to impede, obstruct, or influence the investigation or proper administration of any matter

This statute also requires intent. It's relevance is probably that it has been reported that Trump's lawyer signed a statement saying there was no classified material at Mar-A-Lago in June....

Trump's lawyer told the DOJ that ALL classified docs were returned

One of the lawyers working for Former President Donald Trump signed a written statement in June confirming that all classified material had been returned to the government.

www.dailymail.co.uk

If that signed statement was believed to be true at the time, there is no violation of this statute.

Opinions?

The first statute for belief has already been satisfied. You wouldn't keep other documents telling the archives those were all of them, if bad intent was not a factor.

As for the second statute, that has already been satisfied. How are you going to sign off on classified documents, keep the rest, and not know they were classified? Trump and his lawyers already knew the others given to the archives were classified.

And the third, conceal. Some were in his closet right? Folks, this thread is from amateur hour.

 

[Care4all]

So, Hillary was just 'ignorant' but Trump is a 'criminal?' You believe Comey who got fired for lying? Figures.

Comey did not get fired for lying? He was fired by Trump because he was investigating the Russian and any Trump campaign connections, and because Comey would not give an oath of loyalty, to Trump.....

Trump was asked multiple times to return the presidential govt records, and to return any top secret documents he illegally took. It is a year and 7 months after he left office and he did NOT cooperate and return them all....even with the subpoena in June from a Grand Jury, to do so.

Trump was told by his white house counsel before he left the whitehouse that ALL of his presidential and government records had to go to the National Archive under the law....and that he could not take them to Mara Lago....

Trump has made his own bed, with this problem he has now....

 

[SweetSue92]

Comey did not get fired for lying? He was fired by Trump because he was investigating the Russian and any Trump campaign connections, and because Comey would not give an oath of loyalty, to Trump.....

Trump was asked multiple times to return the presidential govt records, and to return any top secret documents he illegally took. It is a year and 7 months after he left office and he did NOT cooperate and return them all....even with the subpoena in June from a Grand Jury, to do so.

Trump was told by his white house counsel before he left the whitehouse that ALL of his presidential and government records had to go to the National Archive under the law....and that he could not take them to Mara Lago....

Trump has made his own bed, with this problem he has now....

So what?

I didn't see any concern about Hillary's illegal server, or Hunter's laptop, proof positive that he sold out our nation to China.

So really, my concern over this is exactly ZERO. I simply do not care if Trump put the nuclear codes on a paper airplane and sailed it out his window.

Cry about that I guess, I don't care. This is what happens when you don't play by the rules.

 

[Care4all]

So what?

I didn't see any concern about Hillary's illegal server, or Hunter's laptop, proof positive that he sold out our nation to China.

So really, my concern over this is exactly ZERO. I simply do not care if Trump put the nuclear codes on a paper airplane and sailed it out his window.

Cry about that I guess, I don't care. This is what happens when you don't play by the rules.

of course your concern about this is ZERO sue....

you are in a Cult, and the cult has told you not to be concerned, but to stir up Hillarys server from 2008, (which was already investigated a gazillion times) and Hunter Biden's lap top, to take the heat off your cult leader.

Trust me, we know your cult's tactics by now....it never changes!

It's a shame, you can't see it!

 

[SweetSue92]

of course your concern about this is ZERO sue....

you are in a Cult, and the cult has told you not to be concerned, but to stir up Hillarys server from 2008, (which was already investigated a gazillion times) and Hunter Biden's lap top, to take the heat off your cult leader.

Trust me, we know your cult's tactics by now....it never changes!

It's a shame, you can't see it!

You couldn't be more wrong, but I know it makes you feel better to think this.

What IS true is that you have destroyed the law, and now want to cite the law when it suits you.

Too late.

You lose.

 

[Leo123]

Comey did not get fired for lying? He was fired by Trump because he was investigating the Russian and any Trump campaign connections, and because Comey would not give an oath of loyalty, to Trump.....

Trump was asked multiple times to return the presidential govt records, and to return any top secret documents he illegally took. It is a year and 7 months after he left office and he did NOT cooperate and return them all....even with the subpoena in June from a Grand Jury, to do so.

Trump was told by his white house counsel before he left the whitehouse that ALL of his presidential and government records had to go to the National Archive under the law....and that he could not take them to Mara Lago....

Trump has made his own bed, with this problem he has now....

The FBI (Comey) lied to the fisa court and illegally let Hillary off and he hook.. You have no proof Trump did any of that.