Even if Biden wins, it doesn’t matter.

[BlueGin]

What's changed? Could it be democrats legalising hard drugs, supporting pedophilla, taking hard earned money to give to illegals and never do wells, demanding Christians bow down to perversions, burning and looting at every given chance, defunding those that keep us safe, etc!

Yeah shit changed....not for the better for sure

No one supports pedo. My own hard earned money goes to support Christian groups Whether I want to or not. Nor do I or anyone I know support burning and looting or engage in it.

You just voted for a family of them.

No. I didn't vote for Trump.

Right you voted for mr. child groper. You get his pedo son in the package deal.

You mean those pictures of Ivanka being groped on Trump's lap? Get real. Let me know when there are criminal indictments or charges. Otherwise, you're full of crap.

Democrats ...always so self righteous...and then they promote/prop up/ defend and vote for actual criminals and pedophiles.

Republicans...can't come up with any charges or indictments....but still insist that their targets are "criminals".

Comeback when you have something of substance to say.

In other words you don’t care about the emails and videos proving the Biden’s are corrupt that the FBI has in its possession...along with the statements from their business associates.

cuz...democrat.

Yes we know.

 

[Coyote]

What this election has told us, in multiple ways, is that our country has fundamentally changed and that breaks my heart.

The Republicans are entrenched. They are likely to retain control of the senate, added to their House, and retained state legislatures. They have the courts. They will control redistricting after the census and we can expect continued gerrymandering to further marginalize Democrat voting blocks, leading to more districts where a minority of the voters controls a majority of the seats. Not unique to Republicans, but increasingly utilized by them.

The Democrats have still, somehow missed the mark. Again. They can’t seem to get a message to the people that unifies. Maybe this is because Biden is not strong candidate, and Trump carries the power of the incumbency into the election. There are some bright spots, retaining seats in Texas, tight margins in some key red states.

If Trump wins, I see a further dismantling of our nation’s democratic infrastructure and a continued decline in our image and effectiveness abroad. I see complete politicization of our departments, from tiny VOA to DoJ, and entire civil service where personal loyalty is demanded over competency and professionalism. When Trump talks about reorganizing military leadership, is he attempting to politicize the military? I do not think this is hyperbole. We have been seeing this trend for four years, E.O. after E.O.

If Trump wins, and continues his assault on long established unwritten rules of behavior and social norms what will we see coming out of this? When society agrees to an unwritten set of norms and our leaders hold to it, our institutions function smoothly even with bumps and potholes. But when those potholes become so extreme they threaten the structure and people can no longer navigate, we are forced to create laws or rules we never thought would be needed. Example: media resorting to fact checking, because the volume of disinformation and political lies exceeds the ability of our society to handle, and it is coming from our leadership. I fear, if Trump is re-elected further attacks on truth, on facts, and on genuine journalism.

But Trump doesn’t need to win for this. It is already rolling down on us. If Biden wins, a huge segment of America voted for Trump. Huge! And that is dismaying and unsettling, to me, because I see this election as not about which candidate to elect, but as who we are as a country and who we want to be going forward.

If Biden wins, what, at best will happen? A rollback of EO’s? Competent people making decisions? Rebuilding the integrity and professionalism of our battered institutions: DoJ, State Department, EPA, CDC, VOA,....

If Trump wins, there is nothing to stop him from using his offfice to go after his “enemies“, every person who has ever criticized, spoken up, or gone against him and firing those who won’t do it. I think this, coming from the top of our leadership, is an existential crisis. If Biden wins....maybe the Republicans can create a better party, without Trump.

I read, somewhere, that an alarming number of people no longer feel democratic principles are so important, and that a strong (authoritarian) leader might even be preferred to the messiness and uncertainties of democratic systems. I'm trying to find links to this, because I wonder if it plays into sentiments driving our country today.

Trump won 2016 by very narrow margins. 2020 will be the same, who ever wins. Will the people win?

If you don't like American freedom I suggest you step out and go live in some shithole that never contributed anything to the world.

You are confused. I like American freedom. I fully support for example, the right of two same sex adults to marry. It's seems to be you that seem to think freedom only applies to specific groups and the rest should leave. We, Americans, aren't going to leave just because you do not like us.

America needs to start taking Americanism seriously again. Idiots vote for other people's stuff not for freedom. Garry meandering is stupid, instead revamp democracy all together. Only net tax payers or something to that effect should vote. No more loser vote voting free shit for itself. That shit has ruined EVERY country it has touched.

1. How do you define "Americanism"?
2. I hate gerrymandering (something both sides do) - we might have an iota of agreement here. What do you mean by "revamp democracy altogether"?
3. So...you are proposing that only those who pay taxes have a right to vote? Woah. What about those who are self sufficient? Disabled? They can't vote either? Taxation without representation?

Even China has figured out that you can't let children decide how other people should live. It is very stupid. And for that they are in a much better position for 2000s than the West.

No one is letting children decide anything.

 

[Eric Arthur Blair]

What this election has told us, in multiple ways, is that our country has fundamentally changed and that breaks my heart.

The Republicans are entrenched. They are likely to retain control of the senate, added to their House, and retained state legislatures. They have the courts. They will control redistricting after the census and we can expect continued gerrymandering to further marginalize Democrat voting blocks, leading to more districts where a minority of the voters controls a majority of the seats. Not unique to Republicans, but increasingly utilized by them.

The Democrats have still, somehow missed the mark. Again. They can’t seem to get a message to the people that unifies. Maybe this is because Biden is not strong candidate, and Trump carries the power of the incumbency into the election. There are some bright spots, retaining seats in Texas, tight margins in some key red states.

If Trump wins, I see a further dismantling of our nation’s democratic infrastructure and a continued decline in our image and effectiveness abroad. I see complete politicization of our departments, from tiny VOA to DoJ, and entire civil service where personal loyalty is demanded over competency and professionalism. When Trump talks about reorganizing military leadership, is he attempting to politicize the military? I do not think this is hyperbole. We have been seeing this trend for four years, E.O. after E.O.

If Trump wins, and continues his assault on long established unwritten rules of behavior and social norms what will we see coming out of this? When society agrees to an unwritten set of norms and our leaders hold to it, our institutions function smoothly even with bumps and potholes. But when those potholes become so extreme they threaten the structure and people can no longer navigate, we are forced to create laws or rules we never thought would be needed. Example: media resorting to fact checking, because the volume of disinformation and political lies exceeds the ability of our society to handle, and it is coming from our leadership. I fear, if Trump is re-elected further attacks on truth, on facts, and on genuine journalism.

But Trump doesn’t need to win for this. It is already rolling down on us. If Biden wins, a huge segment of America voted for Trump. Huge! And that is dismaying and unsettling, to me, because I see this election as not about which candidate to elect, but as who we are as a country and who we want to be going forward.

If Biden wins, what, at best will happen? A rollback of EO’s? Competent people making decisions? Rebuilding the integrity and professionalism of our battered institutions: DoJ, State Department, EPA, CDC, VOA,....

If Trump wins, there is nothing to stop him from using his offfice to go after his “enemies“, every person who has ever criticized, spoken up, or gone against him and firing those who won’t do it. I think this, coming from the top of our leadership, is an existential crisis. If Biden wins....maybe the Republicans can create a better party, without Trump.

I read, somewhere, that an alarming number of people no longer feel democratic principles are so important, and that a strong (authoritarian) leader might even be preferred to the messiness and uncertainties of democratic systems. I'm trying to find links to this, because I wonder if it plays into sentiments driving our country today.

Trump won 2016 by very narrow margins. 2020 will be the same, who ever wins. Will the people win?

My wife mentioned to me Tom Friedmans column in the NYT that builds upon the NR linke below. I don't think Lowrey really adds much, but imo there is central truth the monied people who control govt, media, entertainment, politics all look down upon workers who struggle.

Most of us don't follow the basic middle class premise of "I protect you , you protect me."

jmo but that's how Trump the persona came be

If we just fix that, the rest will take care of itself. Niether the gop nor the dems are entirely innocent.

The Only Middle Finger Available | National Review

If Trump wins, it will be as a gigantic rude gesture to the cultural Left.

www.nationalreview.com

That is a really good article....

If he wins, it will be despite all that. An enormous factor would be that Trump is the only way for his voters to say to the cultural Left, “No, sorry, you’ve gone too far.”​

It's a rather bitter pill (or a needed lesson) that we on the left might well need. A wake up call. Though it's hard to accept it without getting defensive because of our (or rather my) very real values, ethics, and morals that *I* feel under assault by the right.

The "woke" culture, to me, is not something I am in agreement with. I think we go to far, as with PC etc. I work in a University, and I'm seeing the effects of "woke" and it lacks a respect and willingness to listen to the other side. It's actually quite divisive as we are a department that is split with hard science/social science professionals.

Well said and rather unusual in the candid self examination presented.
The internet and in particular social media (Twitter, Facebook, etc.) are the forces that split the nation
in two. The media in general, of course, are unremittingly leftist and hostile to conservatives.

 

[BlackSand]

Will the people win?

Never

Not as long as they keep looking for salvation coming from the Beltway ...
If people really want things to change, they need to start looking a little closer to home.

.

 

[MisterBeale]

They can’t seem to get a message to the people that unifies.

You're right. . . they have spent the past twenty years on identity politics, specifically, and intentionally, DIVIDING people. That is the opposite of uniting folks.

. . . though, to be fair? The GOP is doing the same exact thing. However, it does so through a slightly different way. The left perceives it as "racism," though, it is not, specifically.

It is an attachment to tradition. The GOP is resistent to giving up the norms of tradition and religion. They are ever more resistent to the growing belief in the STATE and politization of science as the savior of mankind.

Tradition is rooted in hierarchical norms, which had been associated with racism, patriarchy, oligarchy, etc., but, the conservative right has moved passed these norms while still clinging to St. Thomas Aquinas' four cardinal virtues that are the core of Western civilization; prudence, justice, fortitude, and temperance. None of these virtues, of course, is inherently racist, patriarchal, or exclusive, so all members of society can partake in the dream of success from a conservative POV. . . yet if you are a secular humanist?

Forget about it.

So, I can see why, from your POV, the nation is fundamentally "changed," but from their POV? They just want to get back to first principles.

I have seen similar post from many agnostics, atheists, secular humanists, and others among my friends who are afraid of those who have radically different values than they do. All they can do is slander their neighbors' world view and degrade them with disparaging comments like;

". . . the volume of disinformation and political lies exceeds the ability of our society to handle, and it is coming from our leadership. "

And yet? The media is the one, that more often than not is spinning and telling all the falsehoods. At this point, I don't even try to correct all the lies. Folks just want to believe their own truth.

How can anyone take such a post such as yours seriously? At this point. . . both sides do it.

There is not a lot left to say, other than, truth, is largely dependent upon whose eyes you are looking through, and your judgement is, IMO, very, very, cloudy.

If you actually believe the narrative of trillion dollar corporations, run for the benefit of billionaires, or the propaganda spread by government, the problem is with you, not with the voting public.


Besides? In the end, the corporations run everything anyway, regardless of who folks vote for. So really, what does it matter? IT MAKES NO DIFFERENCE ANYWAY.

So don't get so upset.

 

[Coyote]

What's changed? Could it be democrats legalising hard drugs, supporting pedophilla, taking hard earned money to give to illegals and never do wells, demanding Christians bow down to perversions, burning and looting at every given chance, defunding those that keep us safe, etc!

Yeah shit changed....not for the better for sure

No one supports pedo. My own hard earned money goes to support Christian groups Whether I want to or not. Nor do I or anyone I know support burning and looting or engage in it.

Nonsense, we see the news stories and the links, the arrests. The left supports all manner of perversity including pedophiles. Did I mention hollywood?

Disagree. I see support for underage marriage coming from the right for example (remember Duck Dynasty?). What adults do with other adults is their business. As a leftist, I strongly support protecting children, having a legal marriage age where children aren't marrying children, but finishing their education instead. That's my leftist thinking.

You can't see the forests for the trees....and why you're not taken seriously....and you're not

I don't much care who does or does not take me seriously. Your opinion is worthless these days. It just devolves into an insult fest rather than any dialogue.

I would rather spend time with those interested in discussion.

Right back at you.

You're just another befuddled left loon trying to look partisan and you're not. Everyone knows it, give up the charade.

As for division? I've watched you assholes objecting to anything Trump did for four years and he kicked your ass. If I were him I'd have told you to pound sand ....oh wait he did.

Now shush before you look even more ridiculous

Oh wait. You mean you assholes supported anything Obama did? No. You objected to everything and blocked it. Hypocrite.

Here is a reality lesson: if an elected official proposes legislation that is counter to a person's beliefs, morals, ethics, or positions - they aren't going to support it. Only LOONS like you expect them to. Get real. I would hardly expect YOU to support green energy or pro-choice legislation. But you seem to think we should support policies we oppose?

 

[toobfreak]

What this election has told us, in multiple ways, is that our country has fundamentally changed and that breaks my heart.

I can't argue with that. But I really have to asked which has changed more? Has the GOP really changed that much from its values of 60 years ago or have the Democrats? Who would have more trouble recognizing their party today, Barry Goldwater or JFK?

I see complete politicization of our departments

How much more can you polarize our departments than with the Lois Lerners who weaponized the IRS to block Romney organizations and many within the FBI, etc., conspired to ruin Trump and to infiltrate his administration to then set up deals with Russia so they could bust Trump as a "Russian collaborator?"

When Trump talks about reorganizing military leadership, is he attempting to politicize the military?

How much more can you polarize the military than like when Obama fired generals left and right who opposed his efforts to restructure the military with gays and many other big changes?

Example: media resorting to fact checking, because the volume of disinformation and political lies exceeds the ability of our society

But who is fact-checking our media?

I fear, if Trump is re-elected further attacks on truth, on facts, and on genuine journalism.

If we had genuine journalism, then why are people like CBS and Leslie Stahl unable to even verify huge stories like the Hunter Biden/China connection?

If Biden wins, a huge segment of America voted for Trump. Huge! And that is dismaying and unsettling, to me

It is unsettling to have an outsider buck corrupt big government whatever his personal foibles but not unsettling that so many people voted for Biden, a candidate who admittedly NO ONE SUPPORTS, and if exposed to the same scrutiny Trump is put under would be found hugely corrupt? Let's be honest here and admit that most people's vote for Biden was really just a vote AGAINST Trump. And we can blame most of that attitude on a DISHONEST media who have rained a 96% negative constant tide of criticism against Trump for five years. The MSM never reports ANYTHING positive about Trump no matter what he does.

Rebuilding the integrity and professionalism of our battered institutions: DoJ, State Department, EPA, CDC, VOA,....

You mean like with people like Peter Strozk and John Brenner? Aren't these organizations already full of Obama appointments?

If Trump wins, there is nothing to stop him from using his office to go after his “enemies“, every person who has ever criticized, spoken up, or gone against him

But isn't that EXACTLY what Obama DID DO? Have you forgotten how he wiretapped journalists and tried to destroy ones who critically investigated him?

I read, somewhere, that an alarming number of people no longer feel democratic principles are so important

I read everyday people in this country repudiating democracy, even capitalism for anarchy and socialism. And they are all on the Left.

Isn't the real problem not Trump or Biden as much as the perception that one party is fundamentally all good while the other all bad? Isn't the real problem that the reason why this country is divided is because the parties and the media keep dividing us? Shouldn't our elected officials whatever the party, both be fundamentally devoted toward one, COMMON goal, for the betterment of the nation and its people, but with just slight differences on the design of how to get it done rather than pulling 180° in opposite directions solely for their OWN enrichment?

Donald Trump has LOST millions being in government just 4 years. What other democrat can make that claim? Instead, don't they all go from rags to riches in office?

 

[SassyIrishLass]

What's changed? Could it be democrats legalising hard drugs, supporting pedophilla, taking hard earned money to give to illegals and never do wells, demanding Christians bow down to perversions, burning and looting at every given chance, defunding those that keep us safe, etc!

Yeah shit changed....not for the better for sure

No one supports pedo. My own hard earned money goes to support Christian groups Whether I want to or not. Nor do I or anyone I know support burning and looting or engage in it.

Nonsense, we see the news stories and the links, the arrests. The left supports all manner of perversity including pedophiles. Did I mention hollywood?

Disagree. I see support for underage marriage coming from the right for example (remember Duck Dynasty?). What adults do with other adults is their business. As a leftist, I strongly support protecting children, having a legal marriage age where children aren't marrying children, but finishing their education instead. That's my leftist thinking.

You can't see the forests for the trees....and why you're not taken seriously....and you're not

I don't much care who does or does not take me seriously. Your opinion is worthless these days. It just devolves into an insult fest rather than any dialogue.

I would rather spend time with those interested in discussion.

Right back at you.

You're just another befuddled left loon trying to look partisan and you're not. Everyone knows it, give up the charade.

As for division? I've watched you assholes objecting to anything Trump did for four years and he kicked your ass. If I were him I'd have told you to pound sand ....oh wait he did.

Now shush before you look even more ridiculous

Oh wait. You mean you assholes supported anything Obama did? No. You objected to everything and blocked it. Hypocrite.

Here is a reality lesson: if an elected official proposes legislation that is counter to a person's beliefs, morals, ethics, or positions - they aren't going to support it. Only LOONS like you expect them to. Get real. I would hardly expect YOU to support green energy or pro-choice legislation. But you seem to think we should support policies we oppose?

See how that works? Knock it off

I worry about our children...face facts, democrats don't give two shits about them.

Lose the funny, it's old

 

[miketx]

What's changed? Could it be democrats legalising hard drugs, supporting pedophilla, taking hard earned money to give to illegals and never do wells, demanding Christians bow down to perversions, burning and looting at every given chance, defunding those that keep us safe, etc!

Yeah shit changed....not for the better for sure

No one supports pedo. My own hard earned money goes to support Christian groups Whether I want to or not. Nor do I or anyone I know support burning and looting or engage in it.

Nonsense, we see the news stories and the links, the arrests. The left supports all manner of perversity including pedophiles. Did I mention hollywood?

Disagree. I see support for underage marriage coming from the right for example (remember Duck Dynasty?). What adults do with other adults is their business. As a leftist, I strongly support protecting children, having a legal marriage age where children aren't marrying children, but finishing their education instead. That's my leftist thinking.

You can't see the forests for the trees....and why you're not taken seriously....and you're not

I don't much care who does or does not take me seriously. Your opinion is worthless these days. It just devolves into an insult fest rather than any dialogue.

I would rather spend time with those interested in discussion.

Right back at you.

You're just another befuddled left loon trying to look partisan and you're not. Everyone knows it, give up the charade.

As for division? I've watched you assholes objecting to anything Trump did for four years and he kicked your ass. If I were him I'd have told you to pound sand ....oh wait he did.

Now shush before you look even more ridiculous

Oh wait. You mean you assholes supported anything Obama did? No. You objected to everything and blocked it. Hypocrite.

Here is a reality lesson: if an elected official proposes legislation that is counter to a person's beliefs, morals, ethics, or positions - they aren't going to support it. Only LOONS like you expect them to. Get real. I would hardly expect YOU to support green energy or pro-choice legislation. But you seem to think we should support policies we oppose?

Only a ghoul such as yourself would want a law passed allowing you to murder children. And only a certifiable madman, such as yourself, would want to kill the petroleum industry. A ton of things your limited mind cannot imagine are made with petroleum products.

 

[Turtlesoup]

What this election has told us, in multiple ways, is that our country has fundamentally changed and that breaks my heart.

The Republicans are entrenched. They are likely to retain control of the senate, added to their House, and retained state legislatures. They have the courts. They will control redistricting after the census and we can expect continued gerrymandering to further marginalize Democrat voting blocks, leading to more districts where a minority of the voters controls a majority of the seats. Not unique to Republicans, but increasingly utilized by them.

The Democrats have still, somehow missed the mark. Again. They can’t seem to get a message to the people that unifies. Maybe this is because Biden is not strong candidate, and Trump carries the power of the incumbency into the election. There are some bright spots, retaining seats in Texas, tight margins in some key red states.

If Trump wins, I see a further dismantling of our nation’s democratic infrastructure and a continued decline in our image and effectiveness abroad. I see complete politicization of our departments, from tiny VOA to DoJ, and entire civil service where personal loyalty is demanded over competency and professionalism. When Trump talks about reorganizing military leadership, is he attempting to politicize the military? I do not think this is hyperbole. We have been seeing this trend for four years, E.O. after E.O.

If Trump wins, and continues his assault on long established unwritten rules of behavior and social norms what will we see coming out of this? When society agrees to an unwritten set of norms and our leaders hold to it, our institutions function smoothly even with bumps and potholes. But when those potholes become so extreme they threaten the structure and people can no longer navigate, we are forced to create laws or rules we never thought would be needed. Example: media resorting to fact checking, because the volume of disinformation and political lies exceeds the ability of our society to handle, and it is coming from our leadership. I fear, if Trump is re-elected further attacks on truth, on facts, and on genuine journalism.

But Trump doesn’t need to win for this. It is already rolling down on us. If Biden wins, a huge segment of America voted for Trump. Huge! And that is dismaying and unsettling, to me, because I see this election as not about which candidate to elect, but as who we are as a country and who we want to be going forward.

If Biden wins, what, at best will happen? A rollback of EO’s? Competent people making decisions? Rebuilding the integrity and professionalism of our battered institutions: DoJ, State Department, EPA, CDC, VOA,....

If Trump wins, there is nothing to stop him from using his offfice to go after his “enemies“, every person who has ever criticized, spoken up, or gone against him and firing those who won’t do it. I think this, coming from the top of our leadership, is an existential crisis. If Biden wins....maybe the Republicans can create a better party, without Trump.

I read, somewhere, that an alarming number of people no longer feel democratic principles are so important, and that a strong (authoritarian) leader might even be preferred to the messiness and uncertainties of democratic systems. I'm trying to find links to this, because I wonder if it plays into sentiments driving our country today.

Trump won 2016 by very narrow margins. 2020 will be the same, who ever wins. Will the people win?

It does matter, Coyote.

STEALING AN ELECTION THROUGH MASSIVE FRAUD MATTERS>
KEEPING A Crook like Biden in charge so the political elite and their billionaire and foreign puppet masters can continue to swamp up our nation, make themselves above the law, and rob the rest of country certainly matters.

Get ready for the Insurrections--------------which shouldn't be confused with the anti-fa hoodlum antics.

and yes coyote, I have noticed that the dems are now in "play down the gravity" of the power that the office of president has ORGANIZED STUNTS> The president is the most powerful man in the world supposedly or in Bidens case his puppet masters--which would be who the CHINESE AND SOROS? along with Bezos and Gates?

 

[Indeependent]

What this election has told us, in multiple ways, is that our country has fundamentally changed and that breaks my heart.

The Republicans are entrenched. They are likely to retain control of the senate, added to their House, and retained state legislatures. They have the courts. They will control redistricting after the census and we can expect continued gerrymandering to further marginalize Democrat voting blocks, leading to more districts where a minority of the voters controls a majority of the seats. Not unique to Republicans, but increasingly utilized by them.

The Democrats have still, somehow missed the mark. Again. They can’t seem to get a message to the people that unifies. Maybe this is because Biden is not strong candidate, and Trump carries the power of the incumbency into the election. There are some bright spots, retaining seats in Texas, tight margins in some key red states.

If Trump wins, I see a further dismantling of our nation’s democratic infrastructure and a continued decline in our image and effectiveness abroad. I see complete politicization of our departments, from tiny VOA to DoJ, and entire civil service where personal loyalty is demanded over competency and professionalism. When Trump talks about reorganizing military leadership, is he attempting to politicize the military? I do not think this is hyperbole. We have been seeing this trend for four years, E.O. after E.O.

If Trump wins, and continues his assault on long established unwritten rules of behavior and social norms what will we see coming out of this? When society agrees to an unwritten set of norms and our leaders hold to it, our institutions function smoothly even with bumps and potholes. But when those potholes become so extreme they threaten the structure and people can no longer navigate, we are forced to create laws or rules we never thought would be needed. Example: media resorting to fact checking, because the volume of disinformation and political lies exceeds the ability of our society to handle, and it is coming from our leadership. I fear, if Trump is re-elected further attacks on truth, on facts, and on genuine journalism.

But Trump doesn’t need to win for this. It is already rolling down on us. If Biden wins, a huge segment of America voted for Trump. Huge! And that is dismaying and unsettling, to me, because I see this election as not about which candidate to elect, but as who we are as a country and who we want to be going forward.

If Biden wins, what, at best will happen? A rollback of EO’s? Competent people making decisions? Rebuilding the integrity and professionalism of our battered institutions: DoJ, State Department, EPA, CDC, VOA,....

If Trump wins, there is nothing to stop him from using his offfice to go after his “enemies“, every person who has ever criticized, spoken up, or gone against him and firing those who won’t do it. I think this, coming from the top of our leadership, is an existential crisis. If Biden wins....maybe the Republicans can create a better party, without Trump.

I read, somewhere, that an alarming number of people no longer feel democratic principles are so important, and that a strong (authoritarian) leader might even be preferred to the messiness and uncertainties of democratic systems. I'm trying to find links to this, because I wonder if it plays into sentiments driving our country today.

Trump won 2016 by very narrow margins. 2020 will be the same, who ever wins. Will the people win?

My wife mentioned to me Tom Friedmans column in the NYT that builds upon the NR linke below. I don't think Lowrey really adds much, but imo there is central truth the monied people who control govt, media, entertainment, politics all look down upon workers who struggle.

Most of us don't follow the basic middle class premise of "I protect you , you protect me."

jmo but that's how Trump the persona came be

If we just fix that, the rest will take care of itself. Niether the gop nor the dems are entirely innocent.

The Only Middle Finger Available | National Review

If Trump wins, it will be as a gigantic rude gesture to the cultural Left.

www.nationalreview.com

Friedman will do anything to make a buck.
He’s a Neo-Con who loves whores...

 

[BlackSand]

They can’t seem to get a message to the people that unifies.

You're right. . . they have spent the past twenty years on identity politics, specifically, and intentionally, DIVIDING people. That is the opposite of uniting folks.

. . . though, to be fair? The GOP is doing the same exact thing. However, it does so through a slightly different way. The left perceives it as "racism," though, it is not, specifically.

It is an attachment to tradition. The GOP is resistent to giving up the norms of tradition and religion. They are ever more resistent to the growing belief in the STATE and politization of science as the savior of mankind.

Tradition is rooted in hierarchical norms, which had been associated with racism, patriarchy, oligarchy, etc., but, the conservative right has moved passed these norms while still clinging to St. Thomas Aquinas' four cardinal virtues that are the core of Western civilization; prudence, justice, fortitude, and temperance. None of these virtues, of course, is inherently racist, patriarchal, or exclusive, so all members of society can partake in the dream of success from a conservative POV. . . yet if you are a secular humanist?

Forget about it.

So, I can see why, from your POV, the nation is fundamentally "changed," but from their POV? They just want to get back to first principles.

I have seen similar post from many agnostics, atheists, secular humanists, and others among my friends who are afraid of those who have radically different values than they do. All they can do is slander their neighbors' world view and degrade them with disparaging comments like;

". . . the volume of disinformation and political lies exceeds the ability of our society to handle, and it is coming from our leadership. "

And yet? The media is the one, that more often than not is spinning and telling all the falsehoods. At this point, I don't even try to correct all the lies. Folks just want to believe their own truth.

How can anyone take such a post such as yours seriously? At this point. . . both sides do it.

There is not a lot left to say, other than, truth, is largely dependent upon whose eyes you are looking through, and your judgement is, IMO, very, very, cloudy.

If you actually believe the narrative of trillion dollar corporations, run for the benefit of billionaires, or the propaganda spread by government, the problem is with you, not with the voting public.


Besides? In the end, the corporations run everything anyway, regardless of who folks vote for. So really, what does it matter? IT MAKES NO DIFFERENCE ANYWAY.

So don't get so upset.

That's why it is better to look closer to home.

If people work diligently to address concerns in their own communities, they gain bearings.
It teaches them what compromise really is, when they are working face to face.
They learn to adapt and innovate to meet the existing challenges or concerns, instead of kicking the can down the road.

They are not waiting for the assclowns in the circus sideshow to provide them with an easy answer.
They are not pinning their hopes, dreams and fulfilment on the desires of those who's only concern is to protect their power.

And it is infectious as the joy and ability to celebrate even the smallest of triumphs and gains, is accompanied by the honest fact you actually did something.

.

 

[Juicin]

What this election has told us, in multiple ways, is that our country has fundamentally changed and that breaks my heart.

The Republicans are entrenched. They are likely to retain control of the senate, added to their House, and retained state legislatures. They have the courts. They will control redistricting after the census and we can expect continued gerrymandering to further marginalize Democrat voting blocks, leading to more districts where a minority of the voters controls a majority of the seats. Not unique to Republicans, but increasingly utilized by them.

The Democrats have still, somehow missed the mark. Again. They can’t seem to get a message to the people that unifies. Maybe this is because Biden is not strong candidate, and Trump carries the power of the incumbency into the election. There are some bright spots, retaining seats in Texas, tight margins in some key red states.

If Trump wins, I see a further dismantling of our nation’s democratic infrastructure and a continued decline in our image and effectiveness abroad. I see complete politicization of our departments, from tiny VOA to DoJ, and entire civil service where personal loyalty is demanded over competency and professionalism. When Trump talks about reorganizing military leadership, is he attempting to politicize the military? I do not think this is hyperbole. We have been seeing this trend for four years, E.O. after E.O.

If Trump wins, and continues his assault on long established unwritten rules of behavior and social norms what will we see coming out of this? When society agrees to an unwritten set of norms and our leaders hold to it, our institutions function smoothly even with bumps and potholes. But when those potholes become so extreme they threaten the structure and people can no longer navigate, we are forced to create laws or rules we never thought would be needed. Example: media resorting to fact checking, because the volume of disinformation and political lies exceeds the ability of our society to handle, and it is coming from our leadership. I fear, if Trump is re-elected further attacks on truth, on facts, and on genuine journalism.

But Trump doesn’t need to win for this. It is already rolling down on us. If Biden wins, a huge segment of America voted for Trump. Huge! And that is dismaying and unsettling, to me, because I see this election as not about which candidate to elect, but as who we are as a country and who we want to be going forward.

If Biden wins, what, at best will happen? A rollback of EO’s? Competent people making decisions? Rebuilding the integrity and professionalism of our battered institutions: DoJ, State Department, EPA, CDC, VOA,....

If Trump wins, there is nothing to stop him from using his offfice to go after his “enemies“, every person who has ever criticized, spoken up, or gone against him and firing those who won’t do it. I think this, coming from the top of our leadership, is an existential crisis. If Biden wins....maybe the Republicans can create a better party, without Trump.

I read, somewhere, that an alarming number of people no longer feel democratic principles are so important, and that a strong (authoritarian) leader might even be preferred to the messiness and uncertainties of democratic systems. I'm trying to find links to this, because I wonder if it plays into sentiments driving our country today.

Trump won 2016 by very narrow margins. 2020 will be the same, who ever wins. Will the people win?

Meh no one wants a mask mandate or affirmative action in 2020 you brought this on yourselves

Even cali rejected affirmative action.

Race essentialists are peas in a pod. Nazis or Black Israelites

Democrats can't even deal with a cold and think you're convincing all Americans you're competent enough to deal with actual problems? Hah

 

[Indeependent]

The gulf is too wide between the ideologies.

That is what I fear....but there have to be some commonalities on which to build a bridge or we are doomed.

The left is doomed, just a matter of time. Too many groups pandered to that have only loosely been held together by hating Trump. If Biden somehow wins they will fall upon each other. The right isn't going anywhere. Especially since the whiney RINOs have been rejected and ejected.

Is it? Wasn't Trump elected based largely on hatred of Clinton?

RINOS/DINOS - those are the centrists. Ejecting them means both parties go to their extremes....that is good?

No.

 

[Coyote]

They can’t seem to get a message to the people that unifies.

You're right. . . they have spent the past twenty years on identity politics, specifically, and intentionally, DIVIDING people. That is the opposite of uniting folks.

. . . though, to be fair? The GOP is doing the same exact thing. However, it does so through a slightly different way. The left perceives it as "racism," though, it is not, specifically.

It is an attachment to tradition. The GOP is resistent to giving up the norms of tradition and religion. They are ever more resistent to the growing belief in the STATE and politization of science as the savior of mankind.

Tradition is rooted in hierarchical norms, which had been associated with racism, patriarchy, oligarchy, etc., but, the conservative right has moved passed these norms while still clinging to St. Thomas Aquinas' four cardinal virtues that are the core of Western civilization; prudence, justice, fortitude, and temperance. None of these virtues, of course, is inherently racist, patriarchal, or exclusive, so all members of society can partake in the dream of success from a conservative POV. . . yet if you are a secular humanist?

Forget about it.

So, I can see why, from your POV, the nation is fundamentally "changed," but from their POV? They just want to get back to first principles.

I have seen similar post from many agnostics, atheists, secular humanists, and others among my friends who are afraid of those who have radically different values than they do. All they can do is slander their neighbors' world view and degrade them with disparaging comments like;

". . . the volume of disinformation and political lies exceeds the ability of our society to handle, and it is coming from our leadership. "

And yet? The media is the one, that more often than not is spinning and telling all the falsehoods. At this point, I don't even try to correct all the lies. Folks just want to believe their own truth.

How can anyone take such a post such as yours seriously? At this point. . . both sides do it.

There is not a lot left to say, other than, truth, is largely dependent upon whose eyes you are looking through, and your judgement is, IMO, very, very, cloudy.

If you actually believe the narrative of trillion dollar corporations, run for the benefit of billionaires, or the propaganda spread by government, the problem is with you, not with the voting public.


Besides? In the end, the corporations run everything anyway, regardless of who folks vote for. So really, what does it matter? IT MAKES NO DIFFERENCE ANYWAY.

So don't get so upset.

Thanks for a well thought out post, I appreciate it.

I don't agree with all of it, because I think in certain ways your own eyes are cloudy if you aren't seeing the sheer volume of disinformation coming not from traditional media sources, but from social media, and then spread further by the President or even started by the president, when that level spreads it combatting it becomes almost impossible.

But I do agree with SOME this, defining conservatism. I bolded what I agree with.

It is an attachment to tradition. The GOP is resistent to giving up the norms of tradition and religion. They are ever more resistent to the growing belief in the STATE and politization of science as the savior of mankind.

Tradition is rooted in hierarchical norms, which had been associated with racism, patriarchy, oligarchy, etc., but, the conservative right has moved passed these norms while still clinging to St. Thomas Aquinas' four cardinal virtues that are the core of Western civilization; prudence, justice, fortitude, and temperance. None of these virtues, of course, is inherently racist, patriarchal, or exclusive, so all members of society can partake in the dream of success from a conservative POV. . . yet if you are a secular humanist?

I disagree with the GOP resisting politicization of science - these past 4 years have politicized and delegitimized science to a degree no other administration has.

But the actually values, and moving PAST racism, yes. I do not believe EITHER party is racist, and the finger pointing and labeling that goes on is a distraction from real issues.

I read, some time ago, an article that I felt was a good description of both our conservative and liberal impulses and the role of each. My personal feeling is both are needed to balance each other. Conservatism defines and protects the "in group". Liberalism seeks to expand the definition of who is "in". It was the liberal impulse that pushed for abolition, it was conservatism that normalized it into our new traditional framework over time. When things become unbalanced there is pushback, when the liberal side pushes to far to fast there is unrest.

 

[Coyote]

What this election has told us, in multiple ways, is that our country has fundamentally changed and that breaks my heart.

The Republicans are entrenched. They are likely to retain control of the senate, added to their House, and retained state legislatures. They have the courts. They will control redistricting after the census and we can expect continued gerrymandering to further marginalize Democrat voting blocks, leading to more districts where a minority of the voters controls a majority of the seats. Not unique to Republicans, but increasingly utilized by them.

The Democrats have still, somehow missed the mark. Again. They can’t seem to get a message to the people that unifies. Maybe this is because Biden is not strong candidate, and Trump carries the power of the incumbency into the election. There are some bright spots, retaining seats in Texas, tight margins in some key red states.

If Trump wins, I see a further dismantling of our nation’s democratic infrastructure and a continued decline in our image and effectiveness abroad. I see complete politicization of our departments, from tiny VOA to DoJ, and entire civil service where personal loyalty is demanded over competency and professionalism. When Trump talks about reorganizing military leadership, is he attempting to politicize the military? I do not think this is hyperbole. We have been seeing this trend for four years, E.O. after E.O.

If Trump wins, and continues his assault on long established unwritten rules of behavior and social norms what will we see coming out of this? When society agrees to an unwritten set of norms and our leaders hold to it, our institutions function smoothly even with bumps and potholes. But when those potholes become so extreme they threaten the structure and people can no longer navigate, we are forced to create laws or rules we never thought would be needed. Example: media resorting to fact checking, because the volume of disinformation and political lies exceeds the ability of our society to handle, and it is coming from our leadership. I fear, if Trump is re-elected further attacks on truth, on facts, and on genuine journalism.

But Trump doesn’t need to win for this. It is already rolling down on us. If Biden wins, a huge segment of America voted for Trump. Huge! And that is dismaying and unsettling, to me, because I see this election as not about which candidate to elect, but as who we are as a country and who we want to be going forward.

If Biden wins, what, at best will happen? A rollback of EO’s? Competent people making decisions? Rebuilding the integrity and professionalism of our battered institutions: DoJ, State Department, EPA, CDC, VOA,....

If Trump wins, there is nothing to stop him from using his offfice to go after his “enemies“, every person who has ever criticized, spoken up, or gone against him and firing those who won’t do it. I think this, coming from the top of our leadership, is an existential crisis. If Biden wins....maybe the Republicans can create a better party, without Trump.

I read, somewhere, that an alarming number of people no longer feel democratic principles are so important, and that a strong (authoritarian) leader might even be preferred to the messiness and uncertainties of democratic systems. I'm trying to find links to this, because I wonder if it plays into sentiments driving our country today.

Trump won 2016 by very narrow margins. 2020 will be the same, who ever wins. Will the people win?

Meh no one wants a mask mandate or affirmative action in 2020 you brought this on yourselves

Even cali rejected affirmative action.

Race essentialists are peas in a pod. Nazis or Black Israelites

Democrats can't even deal with a cold and think you're convincing all Americans you're competent enough to deal with actual problems? Hah

I think Affirmative Action had it's place and was much needed to break through barriers. I do not think it is needed now.

Covid is hardly a cold.

 

[Coyote]

What this election has told us, in multiple ways, is that our country has fundamentally changed and that breaks my heart.

The Republicans are entrenched. They are likely to retain control of the senate, added to their House, and retained state legislatures. They have the courts. They will control redistricting after the census and we can expect continued gerrymandering to further marginalize Democrat voting blocks, leading to more districts where a minority of the voters controls a majority of the seats. Not unique to Republicans, but increasingly utilized by them.

The Democrats have still, somehow missed the mark. Again. They can’t seem to get a message to the people that unifies. Maybe this is because Biden is not strong candidate, and Trump carries the power of the incumbency into the election. There are some bright spots, retaining seats in Texas, tight margins in some key red states.

If Trump wins, I see a further dismantling of our nation’s democratic infrastructure and a continued decline in our image and effectiveness abroad. I see complete politicization of our departments, from tiny VOA to DoJ, and entire civil service where personal loyalty is demanded over competency and professionalism. When Trump talks about reorganizing military leadership, is he attempting to politicize the military? I do not think this is hyperbole. We have been seeing this trend for four years, E.O. after E.O.

If Trump wins, and continues his assault on long established unwritten rules of behavior and social norms what will we see coming out of this? When society agrees to an unwritten set of norms and our leaders hold to it, our institutions function smoothly even with bumps and potholes. But when those potholes become so extreme they threaten the structure and people can no longer navigate, we are forced to create laws or rules we never thought would be needed. Example: media resorting to fact checking, because the volume of disinformation and political lies exceeds the ability of our society to handle, and it is coming from our leadership. I fear, if Trump is re-elected further attacks on truth, on facts, and on genuine journalism.

But Trump doesn’t need to win for this. It is already rolling down on us. If Biden wins, a huge segment of America voted for Trump. Huge! And that is dismaying and unsettling, to me, because I see this election as not about which candidate to elect, but as who we are as a country and who we want to be going forward.

If Biden wins, what, at best will happen? A rollback of EO’s? Competent people making decisions? Rebuilding the integrity and professionalism of our battered institutions: DoJ, State Department, EPA, CDC, VOA,....

If Trump wins, there is nothing to stop him from using his offfice to go after his “enemies“, every person who has ever criticized, spoken up, or gone against him and firing those who won’t do it. I think this, coming from the top of our leadership, is an existential crisis. If Biden wins....maybe the Republicans can create a better party, without Trump.

I read, somewhere, that an alarming number of people no longer feel democratic principles are so important, and that a strong (authoritarian) leader might even be preferred to the messiness and uncertainties of democratic systems. I'm trying to find links to this, because I wonder if it plays into sentiments driving our country today.

Trump won 2016 by very narrow margins. 2020 will be the same, who ever wins. Will the people win?

My wife mentioned to me Tom Friedmans column in the NYT that builds upon the NR linke below. I don't think Lowrey really adds much, but imo there is central truth the monied people who control govt, media, entertainment, politics all look down upon workers who struggle.

Most of us don't follow the basic middle class premise of "I protect you , you protect me."

jmo but that's how Trump the persona came be

If we just fix that, the rest will take care of itself. Niether the gop nor the dems are entirely innocent.

The Only Middle Finger Available | National Review

If Trump wins, it will be as a gigantic rude gesture to the cultural Left.

www.nationalreview.com

That is a really good article....

If he wins, it will be despite all that. An enormous factor would be that Trump is the only way for his voters to say to the cultural Left, “No, sorry, you’ve gone too far.”​

It's a rather bitter pill (or a needed lesson) that we on the left might well need. A wake up call. Though it's hard to accept it without getting defensive because of our (or rather my) very real values, ethics, and morals that *I* feel under assault by the right.

The "woke" culture, to me, is not something I am in agreement with. I think we go to far, as with PC etc. I work in a University, and I'm seeing the effects of "woke" and it lacks a respect and willingness to listen to the other side. It's actually quite divisive as we are a department that is split with hard science/social science professionals.

Well said and rather unusual in the candid self examination presented.
The internet and in particular social media (Twitter, Facebook, etc.) are the forces that split the nation
in two. The media in general, of course, are unremittingly leftist and hostile to conservatives.

While I disagree with you on media - I think there is good reporting, good journalism, and responsible reporting still, I agree 100% on the broader internet/social media.

The problem is - it's a wild Wild West where anything goes and there is little to no personal accountability. But how exactly can you mediate that without government censorship for example, which would be alarming?

 

[Coyote]

What this election has told us, in multiple ways, is that our country has fundamentally changed and that breaks my heart.

The Republicans are entrenched. They are likely to retain control of the senate, added to their House, and retained state legislatures. They have the courts. They will control redistricting after the census and we can expect continued gerrymandering to further marginalize Democrat voting blocks, leading to more districts where a minority of the voters controls a majority of the seats. Not unique to Republicans, but increasingly utilized by them.

The Democrats have still, somehow missed the mark. Again. They can’t seem to get a message to the people that unifies. Maybe this is because Biden is not strong candidate, and Trump carries the power of the incumbency into the election. There are some bright spots, retaining seats in Texas, tight margins in some key red states.

If Trump wins, I see a further dismantling of our nation’s democratic infrastructure and a continued decline in our image and effectiveness abroad. I see complete politicization of our departments, from tiny VOA to DoJ, and entire civil service where personal loyalty is demanded over competency and professionalism. When Trump talks about reorganizing military leadership, is he attempting to politicize the military? I do not think this is hyperbole. We have been seeing this trend for four years, E.O. after E.O.

If Trump wins, and continues his assault on long established unwritten rules of behavior and social norms what will we see coming out of this? When society agrees to an unwritten set of norms and our leaders hold to it, our institutions function smoothly even with bumps and potholes. But when those potholes become so extreme they threaten the structure and people can no longer navigate, we are forced to create laws or rules we never thought would be needed. Example: media resorting to fact checking, because the volume of disinformation and political lies exceeds the ability of our society to handle, and it is coming from our leadership. I fear, if Trump is re-elected further attacks on truth, on facts, and on genuine journalism.

But Trump doesn’t need to win for this. It is already rolling down on us. If Biden wins, a huge segment of America voted for Trump. Huge! And that is dismaying and unsettling, to me, because I see this election as not about which candidate to elect, but as who we are as a country and who we want to be going forward.

If Biden wins, what, at best will happen? A rollback of EO’s? Competent people making decisions? Rebuilding the integrity and professionalism of our battered institutions: DoJ, State Department, EPA, CDC, VOA,....

If Trump wins, there is nothing to stop him from using his offfice to go after his “enemies“, every person who has ever criticized, spoken up, or gone against him and firing those who won’t do it. I think this, coming from the top of our leadership, is an existential crisis. If Biden wins....maybe the Republicans can create a better party, without Trump.

I read, somewhere, that an alarming number of people no longer feel democratic principles are so important, and that a strong (authoritarian) leader might even be preferred to the messiness and uncertainties of democratic systems. I'm trying to find links to this, because I wonder if it plays into sentiments driving our country today.

Trump won 2016 by very narrow margins. 2020 will be the same, who ever wins. Will the people win?

It does matter, Coyote.

STEALING AN ELECTION THROUGH MASSIVE FRAUD MATTERS>
KEEPING A Crook like Biden in charge so the political elite and their billionaire and foreign puppet masters can continue to swamp up our nation, make themselves above the law, and rob the rest of country certainly matters.

Get ready for the Insurrections--------------which shouldn't be confused with the anti-fa hoodlum antics.

and yes coyote, I have noticed that the dems are now in "play down the gravity" of the power that the office of president has ORGANIZED STUNTS> The president is the most powerful man in the world supposedly or in Bidens case his puppet masters--which would be who the CHINESE AND SOROS? along with Bezos and Gates?

I disagree with you on the "massive fraud" claims. Over and over claims like that have been made, but are unsubstantiated. I view this as a way to sow distrust in our entire electoral system and that is disturbing.

What are your thoughts on the Tump Administrations efforts to dismantle the post office shortly before a major election that was expected to have record amount of mail in voting?

 

[task0778]

What this election has told us, in multiple ways, is that our country has fundamentally changed and that breaks my heart.

"that our country has fundamentally changed and that breaks my heart."

Mine too. IMHO America has already fundamentally changed. People are rioting in the streets and some being killed, while the police are told to stand down. The cancel culture denies some people the freedom to speak their minds if it contradicts the prevailing opinions, some even lost their job or are attacked in the media. People are afraid to say who they voted for; that ain't cool.

"more districts where a minority of the voters controls a majority of the seats. Not unique to Republicans, but increasingly utilized by them."

Where is the Congressional district where a minority of voters controls a majority of seats? Or a state? Gerrymandering has been going on for some 200 years, and no less by democrats than republicans. FYI:
The term gerrymandering is named after American politician Elbridge Gerry (pronounced with a hard "g"; Vice President of the United States at the time of his death, who, as Governor of Massachusetts in 1812, signed a bill that created a partisan district in the Boston area that was compared to the shape of a mythological salamander. The term has negative connotations and gerrymandering is almost always considered a corruption of the democratic process. The resulting district is known as a gerrymander.

As a matter of fact, tens of millions of dollars from the democrats went into Texas to try to win seats in the Texas legislature, who does the gerrymandering for the next 10 years.

If Trump wins, I see a further dismantling of our nation’s democratic infrastructure and a continued decline in our image and effectiveness abroad. I see complete politicization of our departments, from tiny VOA to DoJ, and entire civil service where personal loyalty is demanded over competency and professionalism. When Trump talks about reorganizing military leadership, is he attempting to politicize the military.

I believe that Obama did far more than Trump in dismantling and politicizing our democratic infrastructure and gov't departments. Do you think the IRS was impartial under Obama? How about the DOJ and FBI? When did Trump lie to the FISA Court? What about the State Dept, under Hillary was it impartial? Or the ATF? How impartial have Kagan and Sotomayor been during their time on the bench?

If Trump wins, and continues his assault on long established unwritten rules of behavior and social norms what will we see coming out of this? When society agrees to an unwritten set of norms and our leaders hold to it, our institutions function smoothly even with bumps and potholes. But when those potholes become so extreme they threaten the structure and people can no longer navigate, we are forced to create laws or rules we never thought would be needed. Example: media resorting to fact checking, because the volume of disinformation and political lies exceeds the ability of our society to handle, and it is coming from our leadership. I fear, if Trump is re-elected further attacks on truth, on facts, and on genuine journalism.

The media should ALWAYS be fact-checking and confirming what any elected official says, not just the president and not just the GOP either. You tell me, how many times did Schiff, Nadler, Pelosi and the rest of them lie to us about the investigation into Russian collusion? "Oh yeah, we got incontrovertible proof that Trump is guilty." And the Mueller Report comes out and came up empty.
Journalism is fucked up in this country because it was already politicized against Trump before he won his election and even before that. He never got a fair chance, numerous studies have told us that negative reporting on Trump is around 95%, what's he supposed to do? He fights back, as his supporters want him to do; granted, he's too rude and crude about it and say a lot of dumbshit things, but then so do the democrats. It is the democrats who have also violated long established unwritten rules of behavior and social norms, how many times have we seen stories about Trump that turned out to be false? The democrats and the media have ganged up him and tried to deny him the ability to lead, and they did it partly because they hate him and partly because they wanted to kick him out of office before he was even sworn in. Or lose his re-election in 2020.

But Trump doesn’t need to win for this. It is already rolling down on us. If Biden wins, a huge segment of America voted for Trump. Huge! And that is dismaying and unsettling, to me, because I see this election as not about which candidate to elect, but as who we are as a country and who we want to be going forward.

Trump won in 2016 because a huge number of Americans were sick and tired of what was going on in Washington. Excuse me if that was unsettling and dismaying, but the country needs to take a long look at our gov't and what it has been doing for too long.
This election was EXACTLY about which candidate to elect and almost nothing else. You were for Trump or against him, it wasn't about policy it was about feeling and emotion. The man is a fucking jerk, no doubt about that, but look at what he's done while in office. His policies far outshine Obama's and Biden's too if he wins as I expect he will.

If Biden wins, what, at best will happen? A rollback of EO’s? Competent people making decisions? Rebuilding the integrity and professionalism of our battered institutions: DoJ, State Department, EPA, CDC, VOA,....

LOL, thank God the Senate remains in GOP hands, otherwise the deluge of Far Left nonsense would be catastrophic IMHO. As for the integrity and professionalism of our battered institutions, it was under Obama not Trump where those organizations were politicized and lost their integrity and professionalism in the 1st place.

If Trump wins, there is nothing to stop him from using his office to go after his “enemies“, every person who has ever criticized, spoken up, or gone against him and firing those who won’t do it.

Nothing other than the democrats, the media, and even some in his own party. Even though he has appointed 3 SCOTUS justices, they aren't going to rubberstamp whatever he decides he wants to do. Not like Sotomayor and Kagan have voted the other way almost all the time. Many of his EOs have been struck down and that won't change with ACB instead of RGB.

I think this, coming from the top of our leadership, is an existential crisis. If Biden wins....maybe the Republicans can create a better party, without Trump.

I'll tell you what would be an existential crisis, if Biden wins and the Democrats take control of the Senate and the House. Have you looked at the shit they want to do? Abolish the filibuster, pack the court, admit new states, and basically turn this country into mob rule. Am I to believe Biden won't allow that? Please. The man has no principles, he has flip-flopped on everything and lied about it too. Wouldn't tell us his position on packing the court, right? Which means he doesn't have the balls to take a stand until he knows which way the wind is blowing.

Right now the GOP has as much of a schism as the Democrats do. Fiscal and social conservatives vs the populists, and maybe that's the way it should be in a representative republic like ours. What would constitute a better party? BTW, it'd be nice if the Democrats did the same thing.

I read, somewhere, that an alarming number of people no longer feel democratic principles are so important, and that a strong (authoritarian) leader might even be preferred to the messiness and uncertainties of democratic systems. I'm trying to find links to this, because I wonder if it plays into sentiments driving our country today.

People on both sides want their policies to be enacted and they don't really care how it gets done. They see Congress as an impediment that does nothing and so they want action. And they are pretty loud too, trying to influence the rest of us to agree with them and support whatever they want to do. There's a reason why the Senate has the filibuster, it is supposed to foster or even force some degree of compromise and cooperation between the 2 parties. Lately, that ain't happening, there's too much all take and no give in both parties and I don't know when that'll change. I wonder if we'll have to go through some catastrophic times for that to happen.

Trump won 2016 by very narrow margins. 2020 will be the same, who ever wins. Will the people win?

I wish. Not too optimistic about it though.

 

[Dogbiscuit]

What this election has told us, in multiple ways, is that our country has fundamentally changed and that breaks my heart.

The Republicans are entrenched. They are likely to retain control of the senate, added to their House, and retained state legislatures. They have the courts. They will control redistricting after the census and we can expect continued gerrymandering to further marginalize Democrat voting blocks, leading to more districts where a minority of the voters controls a majority of the seats. Not unique to Republicans, but increasingly utilized by them.

The Democrats have still, somehow missed the mark. Again. They can’t seem to get a message to the people that unifies. Maybe this is because Biden is not strong candidate, and Trump carries the power of the incumbency into the election. There are some bright spots, retaining seats in Texas, tight margins in some key red states.

If Trump wins, I see a further dismantling of our nation’s democratic infrastructure and a continued decline in our image and effectiveness abroad. I see complete politicization of our departments, from tiny VOA to DoJ, and entire civil service where personal loyalty is demanded over competency and professionalism. When Trump talks about reorganizing military leadership, is he attempting to politicize the military? I do not think this is hyperbole. We have been seeing this trend for four years, E.O. after E.O.

If Trump wins, and continues his assault on long established unwritten rules of behavior and social norms what will we see coming out of this? When society agrees to an unwritten set of norms and our leaders hold to it, our institutions function smoothly even with bumps and potholes. But when those potholes become so extreme they threaten the structure and people can no longer navigate, we are forced to create laws or rules we never thought would be needed. Example: media resorting to fact checking, because the volume of disinformation and political lies exceeds the ability of our society to handle, and it is coming from our leadership. I fear, if Trump is re-elected further attacks on truth, on facts, and on genuine journalism.

But Trump doesn’t need to win for this. It is already rolling down on us. If Biden wins, a huge segment of America voted for Trump. Huge! And that is dismaying and unsettling, to me, because I see this election as not about which candidate to elect, but as who we are as a country and who we want to be going forward.

If Biden wins, what, at best will happen? A rollback of EO’s? Competent people making decisions? Rebuilding the integrity and professionalism of our battered institutions: DoJ, State Department, EPA, CDC, VOA,....

If Trump wins, there is nothing to stop him from using his offfice to go after his “enemies“, every person who has ever criticized, spoken up, or gone against him and firing those who won’t do it. I think this, coming from the top of our leadership, is an existential crisis. If Biden wins....maybe the Republicans can create a better party, without Trump.

I read, somewhere, that an alarming number of people no longer feel democratic principles are so important, and that a strong (authoritarian) leader might even be preferred to the messiness and uncertainties of democratic systems. I'm trying to find links to this, because I wonder if it plays into sentiments driving our country today.

Trump won 2016 by very narrow margins. 2020 will be the same, who ever wins. Will the people win?

I read everything you said and understand your concerns..
My question to you is, excluding politics or any other domestic considerations, what is the most existential threat to our country, outside our borders ? Russia, China, etc...?
And what would you like to see done to address that threat ?