Dogmaphobe
Diamond Member
Or Christians after the much ballyhooed "PissChrist".
But remember the defenders mantra, now -- there is no difference.
Europe.
- Thread starter Daniyel
- Start date
Or Christians after the much ballyhooed "PissChrist".
But remember the defenders mantra, now -- there is no difference.
Speak for yourself dude. People here know me and know what my faults and opinions are for better or worse. I've posted here for years. You and I tangled on exactly two boards and your attitude there was as inflexible and closed to discussion as it is here. If people disagree with you in any way shape or form on Islam they are labeled Islamic apologists. I do my best to ignore you because you offer very little to discuss beyond throwing insults and personally attacking posters who disagree with you - this seems to be your pattern here.
Now you can get back to putting words in people's mouths, misrepresenting their views and pretending you know all about them
So, tell me again, how is it that so many hundreds of millions of Muslims believe in killing apostates, yet you won't find anything else close to that in Christianity or Judaism?
Because in that regard, Christianity has civilized itself. Islam still needs to.
Then challange my "lies" and I'll challenge your "lies". You make claims about me but when asked to substantiate them with links, quotes, etc you are silent or fall back on your typical lies and insults.
I am very interested in other people's views - that doesn't mean I agree with their version of "truth" or that my view will necessarily change (though it has in some areas) but it is learning. It's called "discussion" - a foreign concept to you but it's what messageboards tend to be about.
If all or even most Muslims in France felt that violence and murder were the answer to satiracal insults - something like this would have happened long ago and many times over.
Mindful
Diamond Member
- Banned
- #86
The weekly magazine pokes fun at religion and hasn’t been afraid to be controversial. It has consistently published material satirizing Islam and Mohammed amongst others
>> including Judaism and Christianity.<<
The magazine was attacked with a fire bomb in 2011. The BBC reported the gunmen shouted;
We have avenged the Prophet Muhammad”
http://hurryupharry.org/2015/01/07/shooting-the-messenger-3/
>> including Judaism and Christianity.<<
The magazine was attacked with a fire bomb in 2011. The BBC reported the gunmen shouted;
We have avenged the Prophet Muhammad”
http://hurryupharry.org/2015/01/07/shooting-the-messenger-3/
- Thread starter
- #87
This is going to be a very long post, I'll try to make it as short as possible.
First let me draw the line here, what you've studied in class is all one valuable thing, however you can't learn swimming by mail, after all actual experience has no equal.
I Would like to begin with what we do agree on, Islam- or most likely MUSLIMS* needs to go through a revolution, and it starts from here;
Maajid Nawaz “We Muslims must admit there are challenging Koranic passages that require reinterpretation today. Let us use existing tools of exegesis, such as specificity, restriction, abrogation and metaphor. Vacuous literalism as an interpretive method must be abandoned. It is bankrupt. Only by rejecting vacuous literalism are we able to condemn, in principle, ISIS-style slavery, beheading, lashing, amputation and other medieval practices forever (all of which are in the Quran). This is a struggle within Islam. Reformers either win, and get religion-neutral politics, or lose, and get ISIL-style theocracy.”
The Qura'n made it very clear, everything written in it is fully explained and clear, you must not take part of it or reinterpret it and be remained as a true Muslim - a true Islamic believer, otherwise they are to be considered hypocrites/disbelievers and every Muslim must fight them until they will testify* "The Messenger of Allah said: “that there is no god but Allah, that Muhammad is the messenger of Allah" - this is why you happen to find many Muslims citing IS is the true nature of Islam, and which is why IS also fight other Muslims.
To conclude I think that what you've learned in class is most likely inaccurate in case it is different than what's written in the Qura'n.
The forms of violence Christianity went through began with the Crusaders and the Inquisition - we can argue about other cases but the point is - nothing last until our time, and this cases were when people reinterpreted Christianity to anything close to what Islam truly is by default.
Now you also mentioned the OT/Judaism as a "death cult" - do you see Jews terrorizing other religions in the name of God? seriously now you just made a guessing here because the OT is only filled with history/prophecies and if you look closer to Judaism to the 613 commands you won't find anything close to what is written in the Qura'n - and what we see today, and if you want the people with all the reasons in the world to fight other religions - it be the Jews.
I have a vast experience with Muslims starting from some of my friends and some are my enemies, I also have a vast experience about Arabs of all religions and Arabs are mainly influenced by Islam, but still different than Arab Muslims that we are discussing about, sadly since you was expecting to "be convinced" by David Wood's video, you didn't pay any attention to what he said, and I'm here to confirm every word.
The reason we all see uprising violence in Europe and MANY controversial words coming from Muslims we find ourselves confused, since you do understand what Tribalism is I believe it is not hard for you to understand why everything going that way in Europe, the Muslims are simply see themselves and other Muslims superior, and they don't try to blend in - to live as Europeans, that is all fair and fine, except that we are talking about Muslims, do you see any connection now? France is currently in what David Wood called 'Defensive Jihad' - they(the true Muslims) got offended by a cartoon and went spraying 12 people along with the police officers, they've managed to escape like the last terrorists because this happened in a Muslim AREA, again - phase two - 'Defensive Jihad'.
If you also want to look at the Israeli-Palestinian situation you can find everything is according to this pattern, so please take a look again and instead of completely denying tell me again which parts of the Qura'n you consider as mistranslated or fake.
It happens all over the world, 25,000 terrorist attacks since 9/11 is just 'the extremists' but what if it was completely reversed and we all were left for the mercy of Muslims? - remember the last time one ideology crowned over any sort of human rights?
Europe is going to chaos and this is only the beginning, its about time to acknowledge that.
Mindful
Diamond Member
- Banned
- #88
FYI:
13.56 Charlie Hebdo cartoonist Corinne "Coco" Rey has told a French newspaper of the moment he encountered the two attackers as they entered the office.
The gunmen apparently said: "We're al-Qaeda":
I had gone to get my daughter at nursery.
When I arrived in front of the door of the building of the paper, two men hooded and armed brutally threatened us.
They wanted to come in, go up. I pressed in the code.
They shot on Wolinski, Cabu... it lasted 5 minutes... I had hidden under my desk... they spoke French perfectly... they said they we're al-Qaeda.
Daily Telegraph.
13.56 Charlie Hebdo cartoonist Corinne "Coco" Rey has told a French newspaper of the moment he encountered the two attackers as they entered the office.
The gunmen apparently said: "We're al-Qaeda":
When I arrived in front of the door of the building of the paper, two men hooded and armed brutally threatened us.
They wanted to come in, go up. I pressed in the code.
They shot on Wolinski, Cabu... it lasted 5 minutes... I had hidden under my desk... they spoke French perfectly... they said they we're al-Qaeda.
Daily Telegraph.
Mindful
Diamond Member
- Banned
- #89
Shall we anticipate a gang of priests charging up to the offices, bent on murderous revenge?
:: The magazine has also been critical of France’s Catholic-aligned political right, often expressed through parodies of Jesus, Mary, the pope and other Catholic figures. Last week’s cover promised “The True Story of Baby Jesus,” based on infancy narratives from outside the Biblical canon. In the cartoon, the holy infant appears in a flash between the legs of his mother, spread apart as if in gynecologist’s stirrups.::
Daily Caller.
:: The magazine has also been critical of France’s Catholic-aligned political right, often expressed through parodies of Jesus, Mary, the pope and other Catholic figures. Last week’s cover promised “The True Story of Baby Jesus,” based on infancy narratives from outside the Biblical canon. In the cartoon, the holy infant appears in a flash between the legs of his mother, spread apart as if in gynecologist’s stirrups.::
Daily Caller.
- Thread starter
- #90
Few reasons,
-Muslims have the perfect motive.
-Muslims were arrested for assaulting and threatening 'Charle Hebdo'.
-The look of the gunmen and the accent.
-They had smuggled gear, military grade but they wasn't holding the weapons correctly, but still shot accurately, they were also very organized like every 'local' terrorist cells - they knew their way and the area, they had a long time to plan it, and they also were somewhat experienced, did you see the video where the black gunmen executes the wounded police officer? - that is combat experience.
Of course this can be a set up, but most of the details for now indicates they are Muslims.
Mindful
Diamond Member
- Banned
- #91
Some more nauseating reactions?
Some More Nauseating Reactions To The Terror Attack In France by Aussie Dave Israellycool
Some More Nauseating Reactions To The Terror Attack In France by Aussie Dave Israellycool
what a Brilliant Post, Penelope. How about you google for the definition of "incite" ------then explain to us just what
the hell your idiot post is all about. Regarding a car with a gas tank "exploding" ------I can think of possibilities-----I have
treated one patient who was in such a situation-----she was
rescued as the car began to burn and after she was pulled out---it did explode. The motor was idling when the fire started.. The patient was not jewish. ------a USA city
Penelope----your English is getting worse each day.
I can help ----I have tutored people like you..
YOUR is a word which means something "you" did or own.
You are trying to express "you are right" for the contracted
form-----the word is "You're" ------the next part of your post
is utterly incoherent. I did not mention muslims in my post
about the patient whose car spontaneously caught fire---some
problem with the ignition and the gas tank----not muslims
Penelope
Diamond Member
- Jul 15, 2014
- 60,265
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- 2,210
Where I come from Irosie its the norm, I do not come from NY,, I am from the UP of Mi. and we say your, and I am way too old for an English lesson from a New Yorker, but thank you, your so sweet.
- Thread starter
- #96
Hundratals muslimer i Sverige hyllar terrord det islam ska ta ver v rlden Fria Tider
Right Mouse click - > 'Translate to English'
Right Mouse click - > 'Translate to English'
Experience provides one value, but Daniel - experience can be colored by your own personal bias. Do you disagree? You and I have different experiences and I'll grant that your opinion carries the weight of direct experience. That doesn't make it right or wrong, it just validates your perspective.
How do you know what I learned in class?
What you say in paragraph one - written by a Muslim - I totally agree with. This is a cross-roads for Islam.
You say: "this is why you happen to find many Muslims citing IS is the true nature of Islam" - but IS it "many Muslims"? There are millions of Muslims around the world - representing many cultures. How many support groups like ISIS? A fraction. Many come straight out and say ISIS' actions are un-Islamic.
ISIS' "supporters" come from several factions. One - Sunni's who (justifiably) felt maltreated and disenfranchised under the Iraqi Government and felt that things were so bad, supporting ISIS was marginally better.
Islamists - attracted by slick propaganda, by what they percieve as "true Islam" as you point out.
Yet even combined it's a small group in comparison to all Muslims.
Christianity became "civilized" - and why? NOT because of anything inherent in the religion. The religion's dogma provided rational for peace (as does Islam) but it also provided plenty of rational supporting forced conversions, conquest by war, and intolerance of non-believers. What civilized Christianity was not religion but humanism and secularism and the idea that human beings were endowed with certain rights that could not be granted or taken away by any authority. This also led to a seperation of church from government and that, in my belief - is what ultimately "civilized" that religion and it's the only thing that will civilize ANY religion. There is no instance I can think of where religion and government are intertwined and basic human rights and freedoms for all citizens are respected. Islamic majority countries still have a ways to go in that regard but just because they do doesn't mean they can't.
When I made that remark, it was in reference to a specific post - and that was in relation to what is written in religious texts. There is plenty of material in the OT to take and use to justify murder, intolerance and subjegation. One source I looked at compared violence in the OT and Quran and found many more references to violence, condoning or encouraging violence than in the Quran. One of the main points it made was references to violence, conducting war, etc in the OT were unconditional. The Quran includes specific references to when something is allowed and when it isn't and how it should be done. It is as specific about the "not allowed" as it is about the "allowed" and it sets forth rules for conduct - rules absent in the OT. That is the background of my statement: religious text.
If you look at people - you get a different story. I think in some ways Islam and Judaism, in religious belief are closer then either is to Christianity which I always see as kind of the flower child of religions becaues it goes out in all directions. Both Judaism and Islam have pretty strict and detailed outlines of codes of conduct for behavior. Both include a system of jurisprudence. Both emphasize charity and good works. I know more about Christianity and Islam however than I really do about Judaism so I'm always open for correction there. However, unlike Islam and Christianity - Judaism has never been a world religion, never been a political religion and always been a minority in any country it has been in. That profoundly alters it's conduct. Islam and Christianity have played major roles on the world stage and unlike Judaism both are proselytizing religions with an agenda - convert as many as possible. In both cases - when they were a minority, proselytizing was done by gentle conversion and both Islam and Christianity had something to offer in the way of a better life or afterlife. Once they became a power, that fell by the wayside and conversion was often by force and war or, a ruler who became converted then converted all his people. In that regard - in terms of long lengthy bloody warfare, discrimination, intolerance, brutality - there is no difference between Christianity and Islam. That's history.
Today, Christianity has been able to put most of it behind them but it still simmers beneath the surface because - along with the positive, Christs love and tolerance, lies the negative that can be used to justify abuse. Much of the Islamic world has not gotten to that point because to do so means you also have to allow for secularism, the concept of human rights independent of religion. I think Islam, in it's confrontation and adaptation to the West and it's ideals - is grappling with how to deal with these things and the result is what we see now.
But not all Muslims are Arabs - in fact, most aren't. There are vast cultural differences between Muslims in Eastern European "stans", Mid East, Africa, Indonesia, India, N. America and western Europe (which comrises a multi-national group as well as multi-generational natives).
I disagree with this because you lump all Muslims together regardless of their countries or cultures of origin. Somali's are not Bangladeshi's. In addition is the issue of "assimilation" - the degree of assimilation varies according to host country and the country of origin. Some assimilate very well, some not - it's far from uniform.
Defensive Jihad. Did you know that most of the tips on terrorists that we have gotten have come FROM our Muslim communities with police and Muslim leaders working closely together? One recent example - the two teenage girls from Colorado attempted to join ISIS and were apprehended in Germany. How were they apprehended? Concerned parents approached their religious leaders who approached law enforcement.
The Quran, like the Bible, contains many passages that should be understood in the context of the period rather than excised out and looked at in a vaccuum. When someone take ONLY the quotes pertaining to war, and omits the quotes pertaining to peace - I'm not saying it's mistranslated or fake - but it's "cherry picked" and dishonest.
No.
Because falling to that mindset is no different then falling to the 1930's anti-Jewish propoganda and you know where that ended up.
Mindful
Diamond Member
Penelope
Diamond Member
- Jul 15, 2014
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Taken our of context. He went on to say intolerance if a form of violence, he was talking about hate speech, even holocaust denial was in that speech.
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