Europe Sucks, and its Economy Not Nearly as Good as Ours

[DustyInfinity]

How does Belgium handle the corruption? Do you have a press that actually cares about corruption? Strong civics in schools? How do you keep an eye on where the money goes? In the US, such a system seems impossible. Washington is getting rich and the media is on board. The money gets siphoned to politician's families and friends, and idiotic things like studying cow farts and trains to nowhere. I don't think there is any way here in the US to get hard earned tax dollars to responsible places. I can't see trading our freedom to give control to unchecked corrupt clowns. I'm a republican, and I've said many times, our representatives have let us down for a very long time. You never really know exactly what you vote for, and then they end up being crooks. If I don't even know who to trust on my own side, I can't see investing in their leadership, which just hasn't been there.

 

[forkup]

How does Belgium handle the corruption? Do you have a press that actually cares about corruption? Strong civics in schools? How do you keep an eye on where the money goes? In the US, such a system seems impossible. Washington is getting rich and the media is on board. The money gets siphoned to politician's families and friends, and idiotic things like studying cow farts and trains to nowhere. I don't think there is any way here in the US to get hard earned tax dollars to responsible places. I can't see trading our freedom to give control to unchecked corrupt clowns. I'm a republican, and I've said many times, our representatives have let us down for a very long time. You never really know exactly what you vote for, and then they end up being crooks. If I don't even know who to trust on my own side, I can't see investing in their leadership, which just hasn't been there.

The most important thing we do to handle corruption is taking private money out of politics as much as possible. Political parties are funded by public funds. No donations of any kind. Our election season is limited to a few weeks and no ads our allowed before that time. This makes politicians at least for the purpose of getting elected first and foremost accountable to the electorate, not their donors.

Having said that that doesn't mean we don't have other problems. We don't have 2 main parties we have something like nine, split over 2 different language areas. In order to form a government, a coalition of several parties has to be formed not always easy to accomplish and invariably messy. Nor does it always make for the most dynamic government since compromise is not just an option it is a necessity to govern.

Press is free but from an American ideological standpoint liberal. We probably have a few more restrictions on free speech in general

 

[Correll]

Just look at the numbers people.

Most of Europe Is a Lot Poorer than Most of the United States

America isn't perfect, and Europe isn't a failure, but Europeans are not obviously better off in the long-run from big tax and welfare policies.

fee.org

View attachment 359636


View attachment 359638

Looking at one factor to determine something like that is foolish. Read this it might give you a better baseline for comparison.

Europe vs. USA: Whose Economy Wins?

Comparing the economic performance of the European Union and the USA does not lead one to conclude that America has the more dynamic economy, or that it has performed better in the past or will do so in future. The most important feature of the comparison is neither the growth nor the unemployment record of the US and the EU. It is, rather, that US growth, unlike that in the EU, is funded by a dangerously high mountain of foreign debt.

Why is foreign debt singled out? Because having a lot of domestic debt is someone better? Or because it gave the answer the Federalist wanted?

Read the article the federalist didn't single out anything. I choose to highlight that paragraph. Also it's ironic that you object to highlight debt as an inaccurate measure for measuring prosperity. I remember a time when "debt" was considered a bad thing for conservatives.

My understand of the issue is that all First World nations have similar debt issues. It seems to a fundamental flaw of our current Nation State model.

National Debt by Country / Countries with the Highest National Debt 2024

It's a problem for all nations. the point is the US as a whole carries a higher debt per GDP than the EU countries on average skewing GDP numbers as cited by the OP. Not to mention the fact that for most nations a significant percentage of that debt was a direct result of US consumers defaulting on their mortgages in the 2008 banking crises causing banks across the globe needing to be bailed out by their respective governments.

As I said in the original reply comparing economic systems between Europe and the US by simply citing GDP is foolish. Debt alone won't manage it either but it's probably a better indicator.

Talking about formal Debt and ignoring unfunded entitlements, is even more foolish.

Since the unfunded part of entitlements turn up in the formal debt I don't see why? Debt is debt right, does it make any difference where it comes from? When the GOP gives out massive tax cuts primarily for rich people is that not an "unfunded entitlement?"

It makes absolutely no difference when comparing. EU countries have much higher tax rates just so they can pay for their entitlement programs.

I don't believe the unfunded part does turn up as formal debt.

Oh, so you are suggesting that when the government can't fund something the money required turns up nowhere on a balance sheet? Interesting theory, have a way to substantiate it?

Correct. Because politicians are corrupt assholes who like to mislead voters, especially if the bill won't come due to long after they are gone.

Time for the Federal Budget Process to Include Unfunded Entitlement Obligations

Federal spending has grown at an alarming rate in recent years. In just a few years, however, even this high level of spending will be dwarfed when the heavy cost of paying for the baby-boom generation's retirement entitlements begins to hit the federal budget's bottom line.

www.heritage.org

Amending the federal budget process to include this principle of planning for future obligations would: Time for the Federal Budget Process to Include Unfunded Entitlement Obligations

Any unfunded government program has a CURRENT effect on the budget, this is represented in the CURRENT budget deficit. FUTURE obligations serve absolutely no purpose on that CURRENT budget. It really isn't a hard concept.

We were not discussing the current yearly budget but DEBT. Unfunded entitlements are not formal DEBT, but they will have to be paid eventually, thus making them a factor that should be considered when discussing long term debt and the problem(s) it is.


I see a lot of liberals, who want to paint America as being worse, who really try to avoid discussing this when comparing the US to Europe.


I have not been able to find any hard data comparisons, but the resistance to discussing the reality of the situation, leads me to believe that Europe is even more fucked than we are.


For what that is worth.

If you are discussing debt is the current budget deficit not how you would do it? Otherwise, you are working from a hypothetical aren't you since governments reevaluate their commitments yearly?

I'm European my wife's American and I've had many a conversation with conservatives here. As I pointed out I pay a tax rate that would make an American pale. I do this so I can pay for my entitlement programs that would make an American green with envy. Cheap education, cheap healthcare, paid sick leave, paid parental leave, a system for temporary unemployment meaning people aren't losing their jobs when they have to be quarantined, etc. etc. So how do you compare economic strength? I think a reasonable way to do so is by comparing how much economic growth needs to be funded by running a deficit.

What you seem to be suggesting is that somehow Europe isn't calculating their deficit correctly today because in the future the cost of the programs will grow. While in reality just to give an example my country like all other countries in Europe have increased their retirement age to keep the programs viable. That's how it works in actuality.

Nope. I'm pointing out that any discussion about "debt" fueling growth, ignoring a huge portion of off the book debt, ie unfunded entitlements, makes any data or conclusion garbage.

How am I "ignoring anything"? Do you think paying your mortgage month by month is ignoring your total debt? The same principle applies.

Pointing to the fact that you made your monthly payment, and pretending that that means the mortgage is not a problem, is ignoring your total debt. And that is a better description of what all First World nations are doing.


We are not in a sustainable situation.

 

[DOTR]

In what really matters, they appear to be wealthier:

Ranked: The 20 Happiest Countries In The World

A report in honor of World Happiness Day reveals the happiest countries and cities—as well as the unhappiest places.

www.forbes.com

"Happiest"? LOL. And how is that scientifically measured?

 

[DOTR]

In what really matters, they appear to be wealthier:

Ranked: The 20 Happiest Countries In The World

A report in honor of World Happiness Day reveals the happiest countries and cities—as well as the unhappiest places.

www.forbes.com

10 of the top 15 are monarchies. Maybe thats the secret.

 

[DOTR]

Just look at the numbers people.

Most of Europe Is a Lot Poorer than Most of the United States

America isn't perfect, and Europe isn't a failure, but Europeans are not obviously better off in the long-run from big tax and welfare policies.

fee.org

View attachment 359636


View attachment 359638

Liberals, since I was young, have always wanted to be like Europe. And when looking at statistics it was always obvious the difference..America had a positive birthrate, by far the highest church attendance and religious observance, zero socialists in elected positions, by far the lowest unemployment, higher productivity. But always they thought Europe was the promised land.

 

[forkup]

Just look at the numbers people.

Most of Europe Is a Lot Poorer than Most of the United States

America isn't perfect, and Europe isn't a failure, but Europeans are not obviously better off in the long-run from big tax and welfare policies.

fee.org

View attachment 359636


View attachment 359638

Looking at one factor to determine something like that is foolish. Read this it might give you a better baseline for comparison.

Europe vs. USA: Whose Economy Wins?

Comparing the economic performance of the European Union and the USA does not lead one to conclude that America has the more dynamic economy, or that it has performed better in the past or will do so in future. The most important feature of the comparison is neither the growth nor the unemployment record of the US and the EU. It is, rather, that US growth, unlike that in the EU, is funded by a dangerously high mountain of foreign debt.

Why is foreign debt singled out? Because having a lot of domestic debt is someone better? Or because it gave the answer the Federalist wanted?

Read the article the federalist didn't single out anything. I choose to highlight that paragraph. Also it's ironic that you object to highlight debt as an inaccurate measure for measuring prosperity. I remember a time when "debt" was considered a bad thing for conservatives.

My understand of the issue is that all First World nations have similar debt issues. It seems to a fundamental flaw of our current Nation State model.

National Debt by Country / Countries with the Highest National Debt 2024

It's a problem for all nations. the point is the US as a whole carries a higher debt per GDP than the EU countries on average skewing GDP numbers as cited by the OP. Not to mention the fact that for most nations a significant percentage of that debt was a direct result of US consumers defaulting on their mortgages in the 2008 banking crises causing banks across the globe needing to be bailed out by their respective governments.

As I said in the original reply comparing economic systems between Europe and the US by simply citing GDP is foolish. Debt alone won't manage it either but it's probably a better indicator.

Talking about formal Debt and ignoring unfunded entitlements, is even more foolish.

Since the unfunded part of entitlements turn up in the formal debt I don't see why? Debt is debt right, does it make any difference where it comes from? When the GOP gives out massive tax cuts primarily for rich people is that not an "unfunded entitlement?"

It makes absolutely no difference when comparing. EU countries have much higher tax rates just so they can pay for their entitlement programs.

I don't believe the unfunded part does turn up as formal debt.

Oh, so you are suggesting that when the government can't fund something the money required turns up nowhere on a balance sheet? Interesting theory, have a way to substantiate it?

Correct. Because politicians are corrupt assholes who like to mislead voters, especially if the bill won't come due to long after they are gone.

Time for the Federal Budget Process to Include Unfunded Entitlement Obligations

Federal spending has grown at an alarming rate in recent years. In just a few years, however, even this high level of spending will be dwarfed when the heavy cost of paying for the baby-boom generation's retirement entitlements begins to hit the federal budget's bottom line.

www.heritage.org

Amending the federal budget process to include this principle of planning for future obligations would: Time for the Federal Budget Process to Include Unfunded Entitlement Obligations

Any unfunded government program has a CURRENT effect on the budget, this is represented in the CURRENT budget deficit. FUTURE obligations serve absolutely no purpose on that CURRENT budget. It really isn't a hard concept.

We were not discussing the current yearly budget but DEBT. Unfunded entitlements are not formal DEBT, but they will have to be paid eventually, thus making them a factor that should be considered when discussing long term debt and the problem(s) it is.


I see a lot of liberals, who want to paint America as being worse, who really try to avoid discussing this when comparing the US to Europe.


I have not been able to find any hard data comparisons, but the resistance to discussing the reality of the situation, leads me to believe that Europe is even more fucked than we are.


For what that is worth.

If you are discussing debt is the current budget deficit not how you would do it? Otherwise, you are working from a hypothetical aren't you since governments reevaluate their commitments yearly?

I'm European my wife's American and I've had many a conversation with conservatives here. As I pointed out I pay a tax rate that would make an American pale. I do this so I can pay for my entitlement programs that would make an American green with envy. Cheap education, cheap healthcare, paid sick leave, paid parental leave, a system for temporary unemployment meaning people aren't losing their jobs when they have to be quarantined, etc. etc. So how do you compare economic strength? I think a reasonable way to do so is by comparing how much economic growth needs to be funded by running a deficit.

What you seem to be suggesting is that somehow Europe isn't calculating their deficit correctly today because in the future the cost of the programs will grow. While in reality just to give an example my country like all other countries in Europe have increased their retirement age to keep the programs viable. That's how it works in actuality.

Nope. I'm pointing out that any discussion about "debt" fueling growth, ignoring a huge portion of off the book debt, ie unfunded entitlements, makes any data or conclusion garbage.

How am I "ignoring anything"? Do you think paying your mortgage month by month is ignoring your total debt? The same principle applies.

Pointing to the fact that you made your monthly payment, and pretending that that means the mortgage is not a problem, is ignoring your total debt. And that is a better description of what all First World nations are doing.


We are not in a sustainable situation.

Who said anything about pretending the mortgage is not a problem? This OP was about comparing the US to Europe by measuring metrics to do so. You've made it about talking about unfunded entitlement programs and trying to argue that because the future costs aren't included in yearly budget deficits just the yearly cost, they somehow aren't counted at all.

 

[Correll]

Just look at the numbers people.

Most of Europe Is a Lot Poorer than Most of the United States

America isn't perfect, and Europe isn't a failure, but Europeans are not obviously better off in the long-run from big tax and welfare policies.

fee.org

View attachment 359636


View attachment 359638

Looking at one factor to determine something like that is foolish. Read this it might give you a better baseline for comparison.

Europe vs. USA: Whose Economy Wins?

Comparing the economic performance of the European Union and the USA does not lead one to conclude that America has the more dynamic economy, or that it has performed better in the past or will do so in future. The most important feature of the comparison is neither the growth nor the unemployment record of the US and the EU. It is, rather, that US growth, unlike that in the EU, is funded by a dangerously high mountain of foreign debt.

Why is foreign debt singled out? Because having a lot of domestic debt is someone better? Or because it gave the answer the Federalist wanted?

Read the article the federalist didn't single out anything. I choose to highlight that paragraph. Also it's ironic that you object to highlight debt as an inaccurate measure for measuring prosperity. I remember a time when "debt" was considered a bad thing for conservatives.

My understand of the issue is that all First World nations have similar debt issues. It seems to a fundamental flaw of our current Nation State model.

National Debt by Country / Countries with the Highest National Debt 2024

It's a problem for all nations. the point is the US as a whole carries a higher debt per GDP than the EU countries on average skewing GDP numbers as cited by the OP. Not to mention the fact that for most nations a significant percentage of that debt was a direct result of US consumers defaulting on their mortgages in the 2008 banking crises causing banks across the globe needing to be bailed out by their respective governments.

As I said in the original reply comparing economic systems between Europe and the US by simply citing GDP is foolish. Debt alone won't manage it either but it's probably a better indicator.

Talking about formal Debt and ignoring unfunded entitlements, is even more foolish.

Since the unfunded part of entitlements turn up in the formal debt I don't see why? Debt is debt right, does it make any difference where it comes from? When the GOP gives out massive tax cuts primarily for rich people is that not an "unfunded entitlement?"

It makes absolutely no difference when comparing. EU countries have much higher tax rates just so they can pay for their entitlement programs.

I don't believe the unfunded part does turn up as formal debt.

Oh, so you are suggesting that when the government can't fund something the money required turns up nowhere on a balance sheet? Interesting theory, have a way to substantiate it?

Correct. Because politicians are corrupt assholes who like to mislead voters, especially if the bill won't come due to long after they are gone.

Time for the Federal Budget Process to Include Unfunded Entitlement Obligations

Federal spending has grown at an alarming rate in recent years. In just a few years, however, even this high level of spending will be dwarfed when the heavy cost of paying for the baby-boom generation's retirement entitlements begins to hit the federal budget's bottom line.

www.heritage.org

Amending the federal budget process to include this principle of planning for future obligations would: Time for the Federal Budget Process to Include Unfunded Entitlement Obligations

Any unfunded government program has a CURRENT effect on the budget, this is represented in the CURRENT budget deficit. FUTURE obligations serve absolutely no purpose on that CURRENT budget. It really isn't a hard concept.

We were not discussing the current yearly budget but DEBT. Unfunded entitlements are not formal DEBT, but they will have to be paid eventually, thus making them a factor that should be considered when discussing long term debt and the problem(s) it is.


I see a lot of liberals, who want to paint America as being worse, who really try to avoid discussing this when comparing the US to Europe.


I have not been able to find any hard data comparisons, but the resistance to discussing the reality of the situation, leads me to believe that Europe is even more fucked than we are.


For what that is worth.

If you are discussing debt is the current budget deficit not how you would do it? Otherwise, you are working from a hypothetical aren't you since governments reevaluate their commitments yearly?

I'm European my wife's American and I've had many a conversation with conservatives here. As I pointed out I pay a tax rate that would make an American pale. I do this so I can pay for my entitlement programs that would make an American green with envy. Cheap education, cheap healthcare, paid sick leave, paid parental leave, a system for temporary unemployment meaning people aren't losing their jobs when they have to be quarantined, etc. etc. So how do you compare economic strength? I think a reasonable way to do so is by comparing how much economic growth needs to be funded by running a deficit.

What you seem to be suggesting is that somehow Europe isn't calculating their deficit correctly today because in the future the cost of the programs will grow. While in reality just to give an example my country like all other countries in Europe have increased their retirement age to keep the programs viable. That's how it works in actuality.

Nope. I'm pointing out that any discussion about "debt" fueling growth, ignoring a huge portion of off the book debt, ie unfunded entitlements, makes any data or conclusion garbage.

How am I "ignoring anything"? Do you think paying your mortgage month by month is ignoring your total debt? The same principle applies.

Not if you leave it out of your calculations and comparisons, which is what you are doing.

 

[Correll]

Just look at the numbers people.

Most of Europe Is a Lot Poorer than Most of the United States

America isn't perfect, and Europe isn't a failure, but Europeans are not obviously better off in the long-run from big tax and welfare policies.

fee.org

View attachment 359636


View attachment 359638

Looking at one factor to determine something like that is foolish. Read this it might give you a better baseline for comparison.

Europe vs. USA: Whose Economy Wins?

Comparing the economic performance of the European Union and the USA does not lead one to conclude that America has the more dynamic economy, or that it has performed better in the past or will do so in future. The most important feature of the comparison is neither the growth nor the unemployment record of the US and the EU. It is, rather, that US growth, unlike that in the EU, is funded by a dangerously high mountain of foreign debt.

Why is foreign debt singled out? Because having a lot of domestic debt is someone better? Or because it gave the answer the Federalist wanted?

Read the article the federalist didn't single out anything. I choose to highlight that paragraph. Also it's ironic that you object to highlight debt as an inaccurate measure for measuring prosperity. I remember a time when "debt" was considered a bad thing for conservatives.

My understand of the issue is that all First World nations have similar debt issues. It seems to a fundamental flaw of our current Nation State model.

National Debt by Country / Countries with the Highest National Debt 2024

It's a problem for all nations. the point is the US as a whole carries a higher debt per GDP than the EU countries on average skewing GDP numbers as cited by the OP. Not to mention the fact that for most nations a significant percentage of that debt was a direct result of US consumers defaulting on their mortgages in the 2008 banking crises causing banks across the globe needing to be bailed out by their respective governments.

As I said in the original reply comparing economic systems between Europe and the US by simply citing GDP is foolish. Debt alone won't manage it either but it's probably a better indicator.

Talking about formal Debt and ignoring unfunded entitlements, is even more foolish.

Since the unfunded part of entitlements turn up in the formal debt I don't see why? Debt is debt right, does it make any difference where it comes from? When the GOP gives out massive tax cuts primarily for rich people is that not an "unfunded entitlement?"

It makes absolutely no difference when comparing. EU countries have much higher tax rates just so they can pay for their entitlement programs.

I don't believe the unfunded part does turn up as formal debt.

Oh, so you are suggesting that when the government can't fund something the money required turns up nowhere on a balance sheet? Interesting theory, have a way to substantiate it?

Correct. Because politicians are corrupt assholes who like to mislead voters, especially if the bill won't come due to long after they are gone.

Time for the Federal Budget Process to Include Unfunded Entitlement Obligations

Federal spending has grown at an alarming rate in recent years. In just a few years, however, even this high level of spending will be dwarfed when the heavy cost of paying for the baby-boom generation's retirement entitlements begins to hit the federal budget's bottom line.

www.heritage.org

Amending the federal budget process to include this principle of planning for future obligations would: Time for the Federal Budget Process to Include Unfunded Entitlement Obligations

Any unfunded government program has a CURRENT effect on the budget, this is represented in the CURRENT budget deficit. FUTURE obligations serve absolutely no purpose on that CURRENT budget. It really isn't a hard concept.

We were not discussing the current yearly budget but DEBT. Unfunded entitlements are not formal DEBT, but they will have to be paid eventually, thus making them a factor that should be considered when discussing long term debt and the problem(s) it is.


I see a lot of liberals, who want to paint America as being worse, who really try to avoid discussing this when comparing the US to Europe.


I have not been able to find any hard data comparisons, but the resistance to discussing the reality of the situation, leads me to believe that Europe is even more fucked than we are.


For what that is worth.

If you are discussing debt is the current budget deficit not how you would do it? Otherwise, you are working from a hypothetical aren't you since governments reevaluate their commitments yearly?

I'm European my wife's American and I've had many a conversation with conservatives here. As I pointed out I pay a tax rate that would make an American pale. I do this so I can pay for my entitlement programs that would make an American green with envy. Cheap education, cheap healthcare, paid sick leave, paid parental leave, a system for temporary unemployment meaning people aren't losing their jobs when they have to be quarantined, etc. etc. So how do you compare economic strength? I think a reasonable way to do so is by comparing how much economic growth needs to be funded by running a deficit.

What you seem to be suggesting is that somehow Europe isn't calculating their deficit correctly today because in the future the cost of the programs will grow. While in reality just to give an example my country like all other countries in Europe have increased their retirement age to keep the programs viable. That's how it works in actuality.

Nope. I'm pointing out that any discussion about "debt" fueling growth, ignoring a huge portion of off the book debt, ie unfunded entitlements, makes any data or conclusion garbage.

How am I "ignoring anything"? Do you think paying your mortgage month by month is ignoring your total debt? The same principle applies.

Pointing to the fact that you made your monthly payment, and pretending that that means the mortgage is not a problem, is ignoring your total debt. And that is a better description of what all First World nations are doing.


We are not in a sustainable situation.

Who said anything about pretending the mortgage is not a problem? This OP was about comparing the US to Europe by measuring metrics to do so. You've made it about talking about unfunded entitlement programs and trying to argue that because the future costs aren't included in yearly budget deficits just the yearly cost, they somehow aren't counted at all.

You want to compare fiscal conditions, while leaving out one of the biggest issues.

That is pretending the problem is not there.

 

[forkup]

Just look at the numbers people.

Most of Europe Is a Lot Poorer than Most of the United States

America isn't perfect, and Europe isn't a failure, but Europeans are not obviously better off in the long-run from big tax and welfare policies.

fee.org

View attachment 359636


View attachment 359638

Looking at one factor to determine something like that is foolish. Read this it might give you a better baseline for comparison.

Europe vs. USA: Whose Economy Wins?

Comparing the economic performance of the European Union and the USA does not lead one to conclude that America has the more dynamic economy, or that it has performed better in the past or will do so in future. The most important feature of the comparison is neither the growth nor the unemployment record of the US and the EU. It is, rather, that US growth, unlike that in the EU, is funded by a dangerously high mountain of foreign debt.

Why is foreign debt singled out? Because having a lot of domestic debt is someone better? Or because it gave the answer the Federalist wanted?

Read the article the federalist didn't single out anything. I choose to highlight that paragraph. Also it's ironic that you object to highlight debt as an inaccurate measure for measuring prosperity. I remember a time when "debt" was considered a bad thing for conservatives.

My understand of the issue is that all First World nations have similar debt issues. It seems to a fundamental flaw of our current Nation State model.

National Debt by Country / Countries with the Highest National Debt 2024

It's a problem for all nations. the point is the US as a whole carries a higher debt per GDP than the EU countries on average skewing GDP numbers as cited by the OP. Not to mention the fact that for most nations a significant percentage of that debt was a direct result of US consumers defaulting on their mortgages in the 2008 banking crises causing banks across the globe needing to be bailed out by their respective governments.

As I said in the original reply comparing economic systems between Europe and the US by simply citing GDP is foolish. Debt alone won't manage it either but it's probably a better indicator.

Talking about formal Debt and ignoring unfunded entitlements, is even more foolish.

Since the unfunded part of entitlements turn up in the formal debt I don't see why? Debt is debt right, does it make any difference where it comes from? When the GOP gives out massive tax cuts primarily for rich people is that not an "unfunded entitlement?"

It makes absolutely no difference when comparing. EU countries have much higher tax rates just so they can pay for their entitlement programs.

I don't believe the unfunded part does turn up as formal debt.

Oh, so you are suggesting that when the government can't fund something the money required turns up nowhere on a balance sheet? Interesting theory, have a way to substantiate it?

Correct. Because politicians are corrupt assholes who like to mislead voters, especially if the bill won't come due to long after they are gone.

Time for the Federal Budget Process to Include Unfunded Entitlement Obligations

Federal spending has grown at an alarming rate in recent years. In just a few years, however, even this high level of spending will be dwarfed when the heavy cost of paying for the baby-boom generation's retirement entitlements begins to hit the federal budget's bottom line.

www.heritage.org

Amending the federal budget process to include this principle of planning for future obligations would: Time for the Federal Budget Process to Include Unfunded Entitlement Obligations

Any unfunded government program has a CURRENT effect on the budget, this is represented in the CURRENT budget deficit. FUTURE obligations serve absolutely no purpose on that CURRENT budget. It really isn't a hard concept.

We were not discussing the current yearly budget but DEBT. Unfunded entitlements are not formal DEBT, but they will have to be paid eventually, thus making them a factor that should be considered when discussing long term debt and the problem(s) it is.


I see a lot of liberals, who want to paint America as being worse, who really try to avoid discussing this when comparing the US to Europe.


I have not been able to find any hard data comparisons, but the resistance to discussing the reality of the situation, leads me to believe that Europe is even more fucked than we are.


For what that is worth.

If you are discussing debt is the current budget deficit not how you would do it? Otherwise, you are working from a hypothetical aren't you since governments reevaluate their commitments yearly?

I'm European my wife's American and I've had many a conversation with conservatives here. As I pointed out I pay a tax rate that would make an American pale. I do this so I can pay for my entitlement programs that would make an American green with envy. Cheap education, cheap healthcare, paid sick leave, paid parental leave, a system for temporary unemployment meaning people aren't losing their jobs when they have to be quarantined, etc. etc. So how do you compare economic strength? I think a reasonable way to do so is by comparing how much economic growth needs to be funded by running a deficit.

What you seem to be suggesting is that somehow Europe isn't calculating their deficit correctly today because in the future the cost of the programs will grow. While in reality just to give an example my country like all other countries in Europe have increased their retirement age to keep the programs viable. That's how it works in actuality.

Nope. I'm pointing out that any discussion about "debt" fueling growth, ignoring a huge portion of off the book debt, ie unfunded entitlements, makes any data or conclusion garbage.

How am I "ignoring anything"? Do you think paying your mortgage month by month is ignoring your total debt? The same principle applies.

Not if you leave it out of your calculations and comparisons, which is what you are doing.

Again no I didn't. The cost of entitlement programs ARE included in the budget. We know how much countries spend on social security, Medicaid, or in Europe's case Universal healthcare and pensions etc. etc. last year since they are included in the budget.

What it'll cost in the future simply offers no relevant information for the purpose of this OP. If you want to talk about the sustainability of entitlement programs that's fine, start another OP and I'll be there. So what are you talking about?